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Heres a few important Halachos of Tefillah and some that many people dont know, including some that if you do or dont do can be big problems and cause Brachos Levatalos.
1. This one is the most important one so I put it first. Many people mispronounce Hashems name in prayer you pronounce Hashems name when it is spelled Aleph Daled Nun Yud or Yud Keh Vav Keh as Ado-noy (rhymes with ohboy) or for those who are more Yeshivish its Adoi-noi basically the same by Chassidim.
To explain, Yud Keh Vav Keh is pronounced as though it were spelled Aleph Daled Nun Yud with a Cholam (dot) on top of the Daled and a Kumetz under the Nun. A common mistake people make is saying Adnoy or Aduhnoy. If you do not clearly pronounce it as Adonoy or for the more Yeshivish/Chassidish Adoynoy (or Adoinoy)clearly enunciating the Cholam on top of the Daled then you have not said Hashems name. Basically, your Brachos can be Levatalah and meaningless.
In general one should be careful to pronounce everything in Tefillah as clearly as possible but this fist one is ESSENTIAL AND I CANT STRESS IT ENOUGH If you pronounce it wrong you didnt say it at all. Theres no “bedieved.”
2. When Davening Shemonah Esrei one should Daven just loud enough that he/she hears themselves, but one standing next to them should not be able to hear them.
3. There are people who think they are doing a Mitzvah by saying the first 2 words of Yaaleh Vyavo aloud or Vsen Tal Umatar…One is not supposed to do this and in fact it disturbs the one doing it as well as other peoples Shemonah Esrei. Please avoid doing it as it is against Halacha.
4. During Kaddish one is not allowed to talk (duh) but also, one is not allowed to even daven during Kaddish(catching up from the previous prayer or whatever) one must stand silently and listen intently to the words and answer the appropriate responses. The only exception is one still in middle of the silent Shemonah Esrei he may continue Davening however he must stop and listen to Amein Yehei Shemay Rabbah. I know this one may be a chiddush to some of you but this is the Halacha in Mishna Berura.
5. During Chazaras Hashatz it is assur to talk (duh) but it is also assur to learn, daven, read, play with cell phone…. One must listen to Chazaras Hashatz and answer Baruch Hu Uvaruch Shemo and Amen and do nothing else. The only exception is one still in middle of the silent Shemonah Esrei he may continue Davening. This may be a Chiddush as well for some of you but thats the Halacha.
6. During Shemona Esrei one must either keep their eyes closed or look into a siddur. It is not permissible to daven and look around the room or straight ahead.
7. If one doesnt have Kavannah by Poseiach Es Yadecha in Ashrei, one must go back and repeat Ashrei from those words.
8. One is supposed to wash their hands before Davening Shacharis Mincha and Maariv. There is a special Halacha of having clean hands when praying (The washing you do at home for Negel Vasser doesnt cover you for Shacharis.) If one is in a rush one doesnt even need to use a cup just hold your hands under the faucet and let a decent amount of the water run over both hands and rub your hands together.
9. This next one is common sense and not so much Halacha but Im sure it involves certain Halachos such as disturbing others. before entering a shul put your phone on silent mode almost every Tefillah someones beautiful ring tone goes off in middle of the silent Shemonah Esrei or Chazaras Hashatz.
10. This last one will come as a Chiddush to most of you. One is not allowed to hang around in a shul to shmooze. The Halachas of the Kedusha of a Shul are very strict about this. A Shul is the dwelling place of the Shechina. How dare you talk your nonsense in Hashems house?!
The Sifrei Kabbalah talk fire and brimstone about one who talks and acts frivolously in shul. Its very frightening but if you want to see it inside get a Kav Hayashar and take a look. I think the Pele Yoetz talks about it too. Dont play around with this matter. If you need to talk go to the hallway, and certainly dont pick up your cell phone in shul and start chatting! We could all learn a lesson from the Sefardim. They have Kovod for their Batei Knessios.
This is all I can think of for now, If I come up with some more I will let you know.
Thank you for reading.
Thumbs up
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wellmeaning bzbody Member WIY seeing the flak that came your way for your precentage figures in the title of this thread
I HAVE A SUGGESTION Why not use http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/mistakes-in-halacha for your future ????? ????? & ????? ????? postings
WIY Member Wellmeaning. I don’t mind the flak. I think they are right, I shouldn’t have used those numbers even though the numbers are high. I have to choose my words more wisely next time.
WIY In one of your previous threads http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/some-basic-halacha-that-is-ignored-in-100-of-shuls-by-99-of-the-kahal
I posted two projects I started in ??”? and Yiddish I wish I had the energy to translate, polish & consult with a ???? ????? can you find someone to do it ?
Thank you for reading.
The effects of hearing Moshe Gabbai at Shomrei Shabbos say Thank you for listening. Is there a parallel?
All I meant was to compliment you as I quoted ???? ????
You are right new threads seem to get more attention.
The real reason I am posting is to bump the thread up
Where did you get this idea of the major Hakpada on whether a person pronounced his nois clearly? Lich’ora, if someone knows that he is saying a Cholem and due to the sandwiching affect it doesn’t get its full oi, it shouldn’t be such a big deal. Even in Krias Shma the only examples the Gemara mentions are where it comes out like another word.
The Bais Yosef quotes the Zohar Hakadosh that you shouldn’t even hear yourself during Shmone Esrei. You must however clearly move your lips. People don’t even realize that they aren’t moving their lips. The Gemara says that Tefilos aren’t answered because we don’t know how to Daven the Lachash.
Do you hold a Mazal Tov plaque when attending a Kiddush in a Shul?
Regarding the first thing mentioned, and the pronunciation of Shem Hashem, last I checked a Cholam is pronounced as “oh”. If its ok for some to say Adoi instead of Ado, then why should Aduh be any different?
TIA
As a relative newcomer I still don’t get all this “oy” stuff. I was taught to say the first syllable “adoh” and the second “nai” (rhymes with eye). If you are saying this is somehow wrong, could you quote a source?
His point is that you should make sure that you are saying it with a Cholem, no matter how you pronounce your Cholem. There isn’t a dialect that says Chuhlem, to my knowledge.
The Tachnun Issue:
1) A shul is NOT allowed to skip tachnun when there is a bris earlier that day in the same shul (Landuas, Shomer Shabbos…) just because that minyan skipped.
2) A shul is NOT allowed to skip tachnun by shachris when there is a Chosson on the day of his Chuppah earlier than chatzos that day just because they will skip it at mincha.
These halachos are m’furash in the Mishna B’rura! I believe that Hashem needs our tachnunim, after all we can only gain instead of complain!
I think a distinction must be made between pronunciations with mekoros, or at least widespread minhag, and those without. OH, EY, and AU (yekke) are all brought in Rishonim (Rishoynim ?) oy is not but it is widespread minhag hailing from a good chunk of Medinos Ashkenaz. Adeenoy with a cheerik is entirely out of the question, despite it being “in style” among some bochurim.
Re point two: I was once told that ???? ?? says that the mel(oo/ee)pim is halfway between a shoorook and a cheerik hence the chasidish “ih.” If anyone has the citation please let me know. I’m not really a daqdeqan, I only know the questions not the answers. 🙂
Re point 4: The Mishnah Berurah at the beginning of nesias kapayim gives guidelines as to which speech defects are problematic under which circumstances.
I remember reading an interesting theory presented by Reb Uriel Zimmer (anybody else remember this linguist/talmid chacham who was a Chabadnik & Kanai?) The various regional pronunciations are somehow linked to the ancient variations we find in T’Nach (Bnei Efraim couldn’t say Shiboles)
YW Band – Yes that is a big issue, I dont think I was ever in a minyan in a vishnitz’a shul where they said tachnun! I think they skip it cause there is always some sort of rebbes yartzhiet or who knows why!
The differences in pronunciation do not come from ancient times. The differences are a direct influence of the vernacular. If you need proof, look at the languages they spoke. If it were an ancient difference, why do they speak Yiddish differently, too?
I presented as an ” an interesting theory”. Nevertheless I don’t see the “proof” from Yiddish. Yiddish is a direct derivative of the vernacular
HaLeivi: It is clearly stated in gemara and shuchan aruch that you should whisper loudly enough to hear yourself or you are not yotze. We do not pasken like that zohar.
wellmeaning: It is a derivative of the vernacular, and the differences in how they speak it are the differences in the vernacular of those places. At the same time they are also the differences in how they speak Hebrew, proving where the variations come from.
Itche, there is such a Gemara about Krias Shema, not Shmone Esrei. Are you trying to tell me that the Beis Yosef didn’t know Shulchan Aruch?!
Chalila!! I’m saying that he didn’t pasken in his Shulchan Aruch like every shita he brought down in his Beis Yosef (for those who don’t know, both were written by the same person, Rav Yosef Kairo.) Look it up, I believe it is somewhere in the late Mem’s. Let’s agree to both check and post the din whichever way it is; nesei sefer v’nechzi.
You are right! He writes in Shulchan Aruch that you should hear it yourself. In fact, our Zohar Hakadosh only says that someone else shouldn’t hear it. The Be’er Hetev though, mentions that the Arizal didn’t raise his voice enough to hear it himself.
The question is what the Arizal’s heter was.
During Kaddish one is not allowed to talk (duh) but . . . one must stand silently and listen intently to the words and answer the appropriate responses.
Sfardim do not stand for Kaddish (unless they are saying it).
A shul is NOT allowed to skip tachnun when there is a bris earlier that day in the same shul . . .
It depends on what the Rav of the shul says. Our Rav says all minyanim skip Tachanun on the day a brit is held in the shule. I have never asked him his sources for this, but since he knows halacha forwards and backwards, I trust he has sources to rely upon.
The Tachnun Issue: 1) A shul is NOT allowed to skip tachnun when there is a bris earlier that day in the same shul (Landuas, Shomer Shabbos…) just because that minyan skipped. These halachos are m’furash in the Mishna B’rura!
Can you please tell me the ???? ??? ? I looked and could find only about earlier Minyonim which is mutar. Look in ???? ?????? ??’? ??? ?”? and footnotes 99-101 where he brings quite a few Poskim including the ???? ????,??? ?????? and Satmar Rav who are Matir.
I believe that Hashem needs ? our tachnunim, after all we can only gain instead of complain!
Hashem wants, we need
Haleivi and bzbody: from ancient times? Maybe, maybe not, but not likely into modern times. My zaide was a wandering litvak, and he, like the bnai binyamin, did not have a shin in his speech. I have met not a few sfardi that dont distinguish between shin smoli or yemani. The Radak on the shiboles/siboles passage writes: “… because they would mispronounce ( megamgemim) the letter shim, perhaps the air of their land caused them this, such as the people of France who don’t understand to pronounce a “sin” and read it like a tav rafeh”. Now we can unscientifically speculate, based on the end of Hoshea, that the residents of Jerusalem were gole to espania, and a large number of others, mostly not from Yehuda was the nucleus of galus Ashekenaz. A tangential support, is the greater distribution of Kohanim in the benei Mizrach. If the galus Ashkenaz, followed the Roman conqeust, that would put the orignal golim in Gaul, Rhine, and in the the British Islands, ( Bag-pipes are mentioned in Mishne Kelim) it is a slim possiblity that unique dialects of the outer settlements of bayis sheni persisted in the early wandering, and filtered through the “local influences” of later wanderings.( as in not having the authentic tav dagush either)
“as in not having the authentic tav dagush”
Don’t you mean “tav rafeh”? A lisp can be described as pronouncing a shin as a tav rafeh.
Regarding your other speculation, it is a well documented scientific fact that the nucleus of galus ashkenaz came from bavel. The division between the rishonim and acharonim was when — to put it poetically — the kesser Torah moved to Ashkenaz.
That was why ashkenazim lost the vav (pronounced whoa) and gimmel rafeh, pronounced (ghhhhh); there is no “w” or glottal (I think) “g”in German.
ItcheSrulik: it is a well documented scientific fact that the nucleus of galus ashkenaz came from bavel.
This is neither a scientific “fact”, nor well documented. If you dispute this, please refer us to where this “scientific fact” is “well documented”. A website with these scientific proofs shall suffice.
Heter? Keep in mind that the Gemara does not discuss this. The Nosei Keilim agree that Bedieved it is alright not to hear it yourself. Some say to do like the Zohar Hakadosh that the Beis Yosef brings. The reason we don’t simply Pasken like a Zohar is the same reason we don’t Pasken like a Medrash: because it is not any different than a Braissa. Just because we know that a certain Tanna holds a certain way, doesn’t mean we hold that way. The reason we don’t Pasken out of Sohd, is because we can’t work from that angle. We can never be sure that our understanding is the final picture. Just like we can’t rule based on Rav Hirsh’s explanations, and even the Torah’s own explanations, because we never understand the whole thing, as it says, “Rechava Mitzvascha Me’od.” When it comes to a discussion of how to Daven that Hashem will listen (sounds like a good title for a book), there is no reason not to listen to those who have a better perspective.
The Ben Ish Chai writes in certain places that if the Rishonim would have seen the Arizal they would have said deferently. There are times when we use our understanding of Sohd to be Machria in Halacha. It gives us a perspective of where things stand. When there is a Machlokes Tannoim, we see often that it stems from Svara, even when they quote Pesukim there is a reason why this one wouldn’t derive it from here and that one from there.
twisted, most authorities agree that Sfard and Ashkenaz from Tanach are not Spain and Germany. The Abrabanel writes that when Sancheriv attacked Eretz Yisroel and took soldiers from many nations with him, he also took from Spain. He says that the Spanish king took some Yidden back home with him. Those Yidden helped settle the land and named their cities. Tuledo, which used to be called, Tulitula, was so called because of their Tilltul, their being tossed around.
HaLeivi: I take back the word “heter,” it was bad phrasing. What I meant was, usually when nistar differs from nigleh — especially l’hakel, which it is here since the gemara calls it a b’dieved not to here yourself — the obvious question is “why?” As for the zohar being no different than a baraisa, I have a question for you: for purposes of din, is it considered a medrash halacha (like sifra, mechilta, etc) or a medrash aggada (like medrash rabba, tanchuma etc.) I’ve seen it treated both ways by today’s rabbonim; do you know of earlier sources?
myfriend: You seem to be disagreeing with the word “scientific” more than with anything I am actually saying. The geonim were in Bavel. As the masses of yidden moved to France and Germany, the rabbonim and yeshivos moved with them. You may have noticed that after the geonim, most of the rishonim live in ashkenaz. Rashi– Learned in Mainz, lived in the Alsace-Lorraine region. Most of the baalei tosfos — northern France. Anyone who learns rishonim knows where they lived because references pop up. If you want seforim that deal exclusively with the subject, the Chida wrote one (forget the title, sorry) and more recently we have the Legacy of Sinai series in English which charts the mesorah from Moshe Rabeinu to Rabbeinu Moshe ben Maimon to Rav Moshe Feinstein. There is also Toldos am Olam in Lashon Kodesh.
See ???? ????? & ?? ????? ??? ? & ?
see http://www.halachayomit.co.il/displayRead.asp?readID=368 (There is no indication of who edits the site. Seems that they are talmidim/asscoiates of Chacham Avadya Yosef Shlita )
Here are the last few lines
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The Gemara doesn’t discuss it. What I was getting at in my unkempt posting was that it is not a matter of ‘Halacha’, only of effective Teffila. In that case, we look to those who know the ins and outs.
This is not the only issue pertaining to Teffila where we find this. The long Teshuva in the Chasam Sofer about the correct Nusach for us (Sefard or Asahkenaz) does not deal with Halacha per se. He only discusses the Tzinoros, the heavenly paths that each tribe has. The Ri Migash writes about adding parts into Teffilos, that it is not a problem, as long as you keep to the rules of Brachos: The end must match the beginning and the Sheim Umalchus etcetera. So there really is no Halachik (Nigla, solid and absolutely required) issue about the Nus’chaos. Therefore, the discussion is on the basis of what is correct to do.
In your second question, I’m not sure what you mean by the difference between Mirashei Aggada and Toras Kohanim. The differences I see are that Medrash is not necessarily written by Tanoim or even Amoraim; it depends on which Medrash. Also, Medrash is not as clear of mistakes as the other Seforim that were constantly learned. Lastly, we don’t Pasken from Aggada.
This last idea has a few parts to it. First of all, as I wrote earlier, we can’t act on what we see as the reason for a Mitzva, since we never can get to the bottom of it with Sevara. We were given the rules and ways to derive the proper Halacha from the Torah. In fact, as the Maharal writes, we go the opposite direction: First we figure out the Halacha, and from there we gain an insight into the reasons for the Mitzva.
Second of all, Aggadeta Gemaros aren’t sifted and ground by Chazal. Therefore, we can’t be sure we really know when and where to apply it.
There is of course the famous reason too, that often times it is not meant to taken literally.
Of course nothing takes away from a clear cut Gemara (usually). However, when something is not discussed in Bavli, we follow Yerushalmi. If it isn’t discussed there either, than we’d follow Medrash, too. The Rambam even Paskens sometimes like a Torahs Kohanim rather than a Gemara. The Or Hachaim explains that the Rambam held that the Amoraim didn’t have the whole Torahs Kohanim, and had they seen it, they too would have agreed.
One more thing. Let’s keep in mind that all Mitzvos have a reason in Sohd. Even when Reb Shimon argues with another Tanna in the Mishna, we don’t say that since Reb Shimon knew the ‘real’ meaning, we should listen to him. As mentioned above, the Halacha is known from the regular ways, the 13 methods. Reb Shimon Bar Yochai, who excelled in Sohd, was able to know the hidden meaning behind the Halacha. That means that ‘after class’ he would tell his students the hidden reason for the Halacha as he Paskened and the hidden reason for the Halacha as his friend Paskened.
Now we can get back to the issue at hand. If the Zohar Hakadosh differs from the Gemara, we obviously Pasken like the Gemara. The thing gets sticky when we have Rishonim that already Paskened a certain way and then the Zohar Hakadosh was found. The Metzaref Lechachma, by the Yashar MiCandia (or Canadia) – Reb Yosef Shalom Rofei (lived around 1550) – writes that when the Halacha is already established, we must follow the established Halacha. Otherwise, we listen to the Zohar Hakadosh. When the Zohar Hakadosh says directly to do or not to do something, that for us is not following Sevara. As to how Reb Shimon Bar Yochai was able to say what to do based on Sohd, it says about him, Bechal Besi Ne’eman Hu.
By today, it sort of breaks down to how Sohd oriented you are. Some people ignore any Zohar Hakadosh until some Posek will quote it. Others follow it with a similar approach as the Metzaref Lechachma. Those who relate more to Sohd will follow Sohd as much as possible. This is where the Teffilin on Chol Hamoed comes in. If not for the Zohar Hakadosh, the usual rules of Paskening would have everyone donning Teffilin on Chol Hamoed.
One more thing: Following Sohd is not totally like acting on an Aggadaic, philosophical, Drush, Psychological, sweet or simple reason. Sohd is an understanding of the ‘real’ reason. However, we still always keep in mind that the Mitzvos are much deeper than our understanding. Although all Torah Lishma is real of course, the other explanations are like offshoots of the main trunk, while the Sohd is the trunk. Therefore, those with a true understanding of the Sohd, can be Machria the Halacha toward the Sohd.
Yeyasher Kochacha! That was a very thorough exposition on were the zohar stands in the rules of psak. It even explains why there are stiros between how RiSHBi paskens in the gemara and what he says in Zohar. Just a couple of points you raised:
1- You mention toras kohanim. I didn’t use it as an example, but it actually is the best example of what I’m talking about. THe midrashei halacha were written by tannaim and were very meduyak (even more than the baraisos of Rabi Oshiya) hence we pasken like them far more than the medrashei aggadda which are less meduyak, as you point out, and are not always even meant to be din.
2- You write: Those who relate more to Sohd will follow Sohd as much as possible. This is where the Teffilin on Chol Hamoed comes in. If not for the Zohar Hakadosh, the usual rules of Paskening would have everyone donning Teffilin on Chol Hamoed.
There is also the matter of family minhag. My father is less “sohd oriented” as you put it, yet he still wears tfillin on chol hamoed as do I, because that’s how he was taught and I do because it’s his minhag. So in a way, even by the normal rules of psak, people end up following sohd.
3-Although all Torah Lishma is real of course, the other explanations are like offshoots of the main trunk, while the Sohd is the trunk
Lav davka. Many acharonim paskened wihtout sohd because they held differently, but I see what you are saying.
Itche, Most Rishonim indeed lived in the Ashkenaz area, but that is no proof that Bavel moved to the Ashkenaz area or that Eretz Yisroel moved to the Sefard area.
There is no concrete evidence anywhere that exists indicating where the Yidden from Ashkenaz mostly came from (prior to Ashkenaz), or where the Yidden from Sefard mostly came from (prior to Sefard). If you believe otherwise, please document where such concrete (rather than speculative) evidence exists. It does not.
1- That’s interesting. I never heard that Torahs Kohanim is more Meduyak than Tosefta.
2- As to your second point, your point is true but the example is either a mistake or a typo. The Zohar Hakadosh says not to wear Teffilin, while without the Zohar Hakadosh we would probably be all wearing Teffilin on Chol Hamoed.
3- I wasn’t calling Torahs Nigle an offshoot. On the contrary, that leads you to the direct will of Hashem. I was refering to reasons given for Mitzvos. For example, if Shabbos is all about remembering the 7th day, why don’t we just eat a big cake shaped like a seven and then go to work?
P.S. When you want to write italics use
<em>and</em>Well we know that many Yidden were taken as slaves to Rome. Also, Rome had a system where it was not too difficult for slaves to become freed. We find in the Mishna references to a a Jewish community in Rome. As to the rest of Europe, it was all Roman Empire territory. Once Charlamagne ruled, he united all of Europe. Being that he was the best king that Europe saw down until our time (besides of course, King Christian of Denmark), it makes sense that the Jewish community expanded throughout Europe. But, admittedly, this last part is only speculative. Actually some families have a Mesora that they have been in Ashkenaz since Churban Bais Rishon.
HaLeiVi, your theory is that Titus ym”s took the Yidden from Eretz Yisroel to Rome, and from there they spread to Ashkenaz (i.e. the German King Charlamagne.) Thus Ashkenaz shtams more from the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel than from Bavel. This is the opposite of what ItcheSrulik proposed.
Either way, there is no evidence indicating any more conclusively whether the Sefardim shtam more from E. Yisroel or Bavel, or whether the Ashkenazim shtam more from E. Yisroel or Bavel.
I think it’s the other way around: after the Girush, many Sefardim went to arab lands, perhaps including Persia.
We’re talking about long before 1492.
Yes, I understand that. I was talking about those who are to be found there today.
When the 4 captive rabbis where redeemed, there was obviously an already established Jewish community there in Spain, which would show that they got there before the end of the Geonim period. Although, the fact is that there aren’t any known Rabbanim before that time in any other land. This could be likened, however, to the situation in America, where the Torah came long after the Jewish communities.
As an interesting fact, I read in a Jacob Marcus book a letter that an Arab man wrote to his brother, in the time of the Amoraim, describing a boat ride. The captain was Jewish and on Shabbos he refused to control it. This Arab hung his sword over the captain’s head and threatened his head, but he ignored him and learned from a scroll. Then, when a storm came and became dangerous, the Jew said that now it is a matter of life and death and he may now control the skipper.
It seems from here that Yidden were all over the place at that time already. Also, you see how the Jew knew not to take an Arab seriously. Another thing I saw in this letter was his overblown description of the terrible events that happened then, and that you’ll never believe it had you not seen it yourself. I guess now is not the first time they’ve been feeding the media.
There is a beautiful sefer (in English) called “Wake up!” that talks about different ways of improving one’s davening.
At least 95% of people phrase the first line of Kaddish incorrectly.
Most people say:
“Yisgadal V’Yiskadash Sh’mei Raboh, B’alma Di V’ra Chir’useih V’Yamlich Malchuseih…”
The correct phrasing of the first line is:
“Yisgadal V’Yiskadash Sh’mei Raboh B’alma Di V’ra Chir’useih (COMMA!!) V’Yamlich Malchuseih…”
(Granted, we say Amen in the middle of the line, but it should still be phrased correctly)
This is an old thread, but some people cannot make certain pronuncians
English speakers cannot pronounce gutteral sounds and therefore cannot properly say the word Baruch since they cannot say the “Ches” sound correctly
There’s no ches in Baruch.
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