- This topic has 43 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 14 years ago by .
-
Posts
-
The topic of support for kollel families has come up numerous times. I think that one big issue with it is that the outlook of people has changed since pre-WW2 Europe.
I remember listening to R’ Gifter speak about life as a bachur in Telz. He said he was considered a “rich” boy. Why? Because he could afford real coffee. Every else drank chicory, because coffee was too expensive. R’ Avigdor Miller was known to wear a long coat in Slabodka, even in the summer. Why? Because his pants were so patched up he was embarrassed to have them show.
Back then, they understood what it meant to be moser nefesh to sit and learn. They didn’t know where their next meal would come from. They had patched up clothes. They often went hungry.
Now, kollel guys think it’s tough because they have to eat pasta twice a week, because pasta is cheap. Big deal. My brother in kollel went on a vacation after last zman ended. How did he pay for it? He’s in kollel. His wife is a teacher who hadn’t been paid in months, because the schools were broke. I’m sure his in-laws paid for it. Is this being moser nefesh? I work full-time, and haven’t been on a vacation in years, because I can’t afford it.
With all the stories of schools being shut down, it’s clear that change has to come soon. For those who want to sit and learn, I think it’s important they learn the real definition of mesiras nefesh.
the kollel men i know are truly moser nefish
does moser nefesh have the same definition for our puny generation as it did for the giants of pre-war europe?
no.
Mod80-
That is a fantastic point. Mesiras nefesh (in the colloquial sense) is a relative term.
Feif Un, the definition of mesirus hefesh depends on the place and time.In poor Eastern Europe, the majority of the population did not live much better than the level you described. If somebody grew up with the US standard of living and forgoes it partially for the sake of Torah,while others do not, it is mesirus nefesh.
fief un – You sound like those people thatg say “Your complainig about this peice of chicken, During the war we would fight for it” No times are diffrent, and dont compare.
Actually, what I think he is saying is that in Europe the community supported people who were chosen to learn and they didn’t take it for granted. They understood they were the “chosen few” and that it was their “job” and they relied on others for support and didn’t take advantage of their generosity.
yes and people do sit and learn all day and are mesiras nefesh and do learn for the sake of learning, and if they do go on vacation they were lucky that it was paid for for them. and there are those plenty who i know who are sitting and learning and are not going on vacation its a matter of support that they are or are not getting.
Being moser nefesh today and “then” is a bit different and some people do have pasta every day and dont complain
I just wonder – if there were no food stamps, wick, jerseycare, and hud – how many people would there be being Moiser Nefesh for Kollel.
I personally believe that everybody has the choice of whether they want to be in kollel or not but it is their responsibility to pay for this lifestyle.
In years past when maybe 1% or less of the population was sitting and learning – maybe it was the responsibility of the Klal to do so. But now we shouldnt’ be asking others to pay for our lifestyle choice. Especially when the wives stay home or work half a day.
Mesiras Nefesh is not just living without – it is sacrificing for what you believe in and I just don’t believe it is Mesiras Nefesh to decide on a certain lifestyle and expect others to support you.
I think being moser nefesh comes on many levels and it does have a lot to do with the times.
Being moser nefesh can be something as simple as having pasta 2x a week or even 3 or 4 times a week!
If you give up some material comfort, no matter how small, for the sake of spending more time learning Torah, you are being moser nefesh for Torah.
Today, we are fortunate to enjoy many material comforts. We are blessed by HKBH. It’s now easier than ever to sit and learn. Maybe not with the same sincerity and dvekus of previous generations, but we can do it and we should as much as possible. We should be moser nefesh for Torah, each to his ability.
And let me just mention that I truly value a Kollel lifestyle. My husband learned for 15 years in Kollel – but we did it without expecting money from our parents or the U.S. govt.
It can be done – you just have to want it badly enough – to be ‘Moser Nefesh’ for it.
I understand that maybe every woman is not cut out for a life where she has to work full time – but then maybe she is not cut out for a Kollel life either.
Yes, people who sit and learn are certainly being moser nefesh-the only problem is they are being moser the nefesh of their children who are being brought up by mexicans, polish women,ro in a group where they are not getting the attention they deserve
Even a baalabus can be moser nefesh for learning.
tanta bubby, in all fairness that happens to the children of two income families as well. But I do agree with you that we have moved away from the Mother being the center of the home, and that being the most important job for a frum woman. Not one school promotes that for girls today and that’s a big shame. Chinuch bonim and raising your own children is irreplaceable.
Aries, they can’t promote it and push kollel at the same time.
tanta bubby:
Who says you can’t be moser your kids nefesh also for learning?
Compare to the amora who told his wife, “there are vegetables in the swamps” (ika koormi b’agma), and went to learn.
If you think the guys who are “being moser nefesh” for learning can afford vacations that you can’t, maybe you should quit your job and join them!
Secondly, who said that people who learn in kollel have to be moser nefesh and wear patched clothes? Stop the nonsense.
Feif Un is correct, and the argument that “times are different today” is wholly unconvincing.
A kollel couple can go on vacation any time they feel like it, whether they pay for it or someone else does. That’s their choice and everyone can choose how they spend their time and money. But to use the term “moser nefesh” for a kollel couple with this lifestyle is pure sheker.
shlomozalman – Yes it is misiras nefesh to be in kollel, What does going on vacation have to do with anything? Firstly you find more vacations by shuna rishona couples. I garuntee working shuna rishona couples defintly go on more vacations than kollel couples.
Shlomozalman
I will agree that for many couples, specifically the boys who look for and get the rich father in-laws there is no mesiras nefesh involved. However there are a number of couples that both the boy and girl aren’t wealthy and they are moser nefesh for a kollel lifestyle. Be it that the wife has to work very hard to support them (which she does gladly as she appreciates the value of Torah Lishma) and even having to accept hand me downs and clothing from relatives…not splurging…and stam living a simpler life focusing mostly on the spiritual.
This does exist but is by far the minority of the Kollel population in the young newlywed crowd.
I think it’s wonderful when a boy or girl’s parents wants to support them financially to learn. The problem is when avreichim think that they are entitled to support from their parents or in laws to learn. No parent has an achrayus to support their married children learning, it’s a chesed if they decide to do it. People don’t understand that every dollar (or shekel) that they receive for learning is a dollar out of the pocket of someone else who worked very hard to earn it.
Just like you talk about “marus Ayin” on the other thread, when yeshivas collect money for their kollel and people who don’t go on vacations themselves or their kids don’t go on vacations and work hard but give tzedaka to kollels, see kollel yungerleit going on vacations it makes them wonder whether they should donate that money to the kollels or they should maybe use that money for vacation themselves or send their own kids who work very hard. Even if their own parents pay for their vacation, it still makes people think that maybe THEY should send their OWN children on vacation because THEY are just as deserving rather than send their hard earned money to support kollel.
Now before you start knocking me for what I just said, I am just pointing out why some people have a hard time with it, that’s all. Because it is the same marus ayin, no one wears a sign that says my parents paid for our vacation and it didn’t come out of kollel money. And no, people don’t assume that and why should they. If the parents can afford to support them, why should the kollel? This is usually the argument. Then others might say “how serious are they about their learning if they make time for vacations”? Personally I think it is very important for young couples to take time for themselves as a couple, but that is my own personal opinion, whether they go away on vacation or stay home and just do day trips or whatever because it is important for Shalom Bayis to bond as a couple.
Kollel peopele deserve sufficient support to leave normally.
mdd… i disagree with you. Kollel is not a normal job. If you want to live normal standards then you go into the career world. Kollel are for those individuals who want to live below normal standards in order to learn… aka moser nefesh. The only people who should be living normally in kollel are those whose parents are willing (and not pressured) to give it to them out of the goodness of their heart. Most people cannot have their cake and eat it too.
Actually the goal is to reduce the mesiras nefesh as much as practical. When we first formed as a nation it was one Ben Levi for every 40 Yisraelim. Thereby the one Ben Levi could be supported BeKavood – in an honorable manner.
Josh31
The difference is that a Levi was designated by Hashem as special and holy and therefore deserving of being supported. For a person to deserve to be supported in such a manner he should prove he is on such a high caliber.
The Rambam praises those who learn all day and don’t have jobs, as the elite “Shevet Levi” of our days. Clearly, even if working is endorsed, it is inferior to those who learn.
As an aside, the Halachah is that you are nowadays allowed to live off Tzedakah to learn (see the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah.)
If learning in Kollel is against the Chazals about Melachah and Derech Eretz, then so is being a Rebbi or a Rav. See the Rama YD 246:6. He brings your Chazals and says that therefore nobody can be a paid Rebbi or a Rav either, since he relies on the congregation. But then he brings dissenting opinions, and rules that the custom is that Torah scholars do benefit from their learning, by support from the community.
The Rama then says it is a Midas Chasidus – praiseworthy – for someone who can become a Gadol B’Torah and make an independent living, but continues that not everyone is capable of this. It is clear that he is saying that if you have a choice between becoming a Godol B’Torah or making a living, becoming a Godol B’Torah comes first.
The standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.
See, its very nice to make an independent living, but it is more important to become a Godol B’Torah. If you cant have both, then Torah is the right choice. Whatever advantages there is in making money, they do not come close to those of becoming a great Torah scholar.
So right
Where are these so called Gedolim that our American Kollelim are supposed to be producing?
I agree its not just for the best learners, irs for anyone willing to put in a full days hasmodah in learning. The problem is many Chevrah are not putting in a full days Kollel work. If guys in Kollel “hustled” and worked as hard and were as serious as business people are in the business world we would have many Gedolim coming out of these American Kollelim, instead of just chevrah who “know how to learn.”
So right, WE DO NOT PASKEN LIKE THE SIMPLE READING OF THAT RAMBAM. YOU”VE BEEN BRAINWASHED!
Look in Shulchan Aruch Or. Chaim 156:”…because all Torah that is not accompanied by melocha is going to be terminated and bring about an inquity…”. The Chofets Chaim in Biur Halocha says the Sh. Ar. is talking about the general public, but there coulb be some yehidim to whom it does not apply.
Do not pasken from the Rambam without seeng the sugyos and the Achronim.
And there could be different types of inquities brought about by this type of conduct. For example, Chilul HaShem(like in Erets Yisroel)!
3 hours for work is enough? If he is able to make a living during that time — great! So right, have you ever heard of the chiyuv to support one’s wife ” be’aliyaso shel ba’al ve’lo be’yeridaso shle ba’al”? Go, find out what it means.
“Where are these so called Gedolim that our American Kollelim are supposed to be producing?”
WIY: Rav Ahron Schechter, Rav Yisroel Belsky, Rav Feivel Cohen, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Look at the Roshei Yeshivos today. Most of them are American boys who became Gedolim.
mdd: Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.
Rav Ahron Kotler ZT’L said in his hesped of the Chazon Ish, that the reason the Chazon Ish was bigger than him, was because the Chazon Ish had no yeshiva to run; he had nothing in his life except Torah. The goal of becoming a Talmid Chacham is so, so, so desirable, that everyone is encouraged to pursue it. If you cant, or wont, for whatever reason, nobody is judging you. But no question — if our goal in this world is to bring Nachas Ruach to Hashem to accumulate merits for Olam Habah to sanctify the world etc etc — becoming a Talmid Chacham is by far the best way to go.
But even if you are not going to be a Talmid Chacham, being the closest you can become, is also the most desirable and glorious and highest goal for you. Learning itself is the greatest act of Avodas Hashem that can be performed in the world.
All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
All Chazals that encourage people to work are also fulfilled by our Kollel people, and only exclude someone who has no means of support. Learning in Kollel is 100% a legitimate parnasa. The exhortations in Chazal against being unemployed refer to those who have nobody who wants to pay them for anything, and are forced to take money form what was designated for the poor, which they do not have to be if they would get a job. But Kollel is not Tzedakah for aniyim. There is a big difference. Kollel support is support in return for learning. Tzedakah is support in return for nothing. As long as I am earning your support – regardless of whether it is through defending you in court or learning Choshen Mishpat – I am employed.
There is an obligation on every Jew to become as great in Torah as he is able. There is also an obligation to not steal, or not to put yourself in a situation where you will have to steal. Or to make sure the Torah scholars live respectfully and not as beggars. The ideal situation is to have both.
But the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.
Gemilas chasadim is great; bikur cholim is great; hachnosas orchim, hachnasas kallah, levayas hameis — all great. But Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam. One word of Torah learning imparts more holiness than an entire lifetime of doing other Mitzvos.
Anyone can learn full time if they want to and it’s a beautiful thing. But they should expect to live according to very low standards. Anyone who is a frum Jew who values Torah should want to learn all day. If you don’t, it’s a chisaron in how you value Torah. Why doesn’t everyone do it? Because not everyone (in fact most people) cannot handle that life style. Too many people demand to learn all day and expect to be paid like an accountant, etc… They demand money from their parents or in laws, they do things that aren’t yashar (like not legally getting married so they can stay on their parents insurance, selling american products from their back room without paying taxes, etc…), and many are just learning because they don’t want to be looked down on by their friends. There’s a reason why many tried to learn all day like R’ Shimon Bar Yochai said and it didn’t work. Because they couldn’t handle that lifestyle. And THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Not everyone is cut out to live in near poverty to learn, and those who are… ashrecha.
In addition, just because a person is able to live in near poverty to learn, doesn’t mean he should. If his wife and/or kids cannot handle that either, he should rethink being a full time kollel guy.
It would be beautiful if everyone learnt in Kollel full time.
When I donate to Kollel, I only do it directly to people that I know need the money and are sincere in their learning.
The question becomes: who’s education is more important? The father or the son? If you can’t afford to learn in Kollel AND send your kids to Yeshiva, what does halacha say?
In this time period, Kollel is easy.
It used to be (25-30 years ago) that Kollel required Misiras Nefesh. No longer true. I remember Lakewood 25 years ago. It was real. That doesn’t mean that the learning isn’t Kneged Kulam.
I actually was at a Kollel gathering in my community and most of the Kollel Yungelight could not come up with an example where they were moser nefesh. Those that did paled to what is required from a frum working man. Now, my community may not be typical (nor the Kollel), but it does say something.
Today, you have to be Moser Nefesh to work, and even more so to pay your children’s yeshiva.
SR: Don’t bother.
It would be beautiful if everyone learnt in Kollel full time.
That’s what I told my school admin.
He laughed at me 🙁
jk
Helpful, it would — but not shayach before bias haGoel.
Soright, it would be interesting to poll all the 50+ maggidei shiur, etc. and see how long they learned full time before starting to teach, etc. Five years meant long term, back in the day.
The questions is, who gives a 22 year-old schnuck the right to decide that his shver or parents should be moser nefesh because he feels he deserves to be in kollel?!?! I know someone living in Lakewood and learning in BMG who drives new model car, has a nice big house (with a pool), and whose kids are always dressed to kill. His wife does work, but both sets of parents are middle-class. They live better than any of the working siblings off of the monthly checks that come from the parents. Moser nefesh?!?!? I don’t think so…. For far too many people, it’s just easier than going to work and supporting yourself…
“For far too many people, it’s just easier than going to work and supporting yourself”
You nailed it.
So right, what if a person does not have rich in-laws, rich parents or a wife with a fancy job? What about people who in their early thirties run into a financial crisis and have no skills to get a decent-paying job?
Kol hakovod to anyone learning Torah and living richly. May they continue to be zoche to be able to learn full time indefinitly AND live richly indefinitly!
What happens to the parents when they marry off the next child and the next and the resources start to run low. Which child should they cut off from kollel? The ones who they had supported for years or the newlyweds who are at the bottom of the pole?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.