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I’m interested to hear insight as to what people’s chashivus for marrying a serious long term learner-the reasons to.. This is for serious answers only.
I think the only reasons that matter are your reasons
The overwhelmingly most important advantage of learning in Kollel is that you are learning. Simple as that. Torah learning is the highest, greatest, most glorious form of Avodas Hashem, which will get for you the greatest share in Olam Habah possible, much much more and much much greater than any other thing you can do for Hashem, including any other type of Mitzvos. Learning Torah brings by far the greatest nachahs to Hashem, the greatest benefits to Klal Yisroel, and the greatest benefits to those who do the learning, than anything else you can possibly do. Hands down, no contest. That’s why we learn.
Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam. But it’s not a question of Halachah, not l’chatchilah not b’dieved. It’s simply this: If I showed you a pile of coins and gave you 1 hour to collect as much as you can, you would spend as much time gathering the gold as you could. Torah is the greatest Mitzvah – one word of Torah, Chazal say, is more holy than an entire lifetime of doing Mitzvos. And we have one lifetime to gather our gold. Someone who appreciates that doesn’t care if he is halachicly obligated of not. Everyone agrees that learning Torah is gold. Even if you are not halachicly obligated to run after it.
There are tons more good reasons — like the effect it has on your home, on your Mitzvah performance, on your personality, on your children — all of which are excellent reasons. But the main reason is, that our goal in this world is to go higher and higher. And there is no better way to go higher than to learn. Nothing even close.
Who among us is not in favor of long-time learning? I’ve been “out of yeshiva” for more than 20 years, yet still learn.
What I do have an issue with is, learning at the expense of others health and well being. Know how bad I would love to attend the 11:00am Daf shuir in BP? But quitting my job will mean lots of unhappy moments for the family I chose to bring into the world.
There is a time an place for everything.
I would simply say Hashem wants Yiddin to learn his Torah. If you are a woman (and as such Hashem wants you to learn what is Nogayah to you, but not the same din of Limud), you should support learning Torah so that additional Torah is learned (BTW, you do not have to be married to support Torah and by doing so still have the outcome that Hashem wants).
Interesting question cause it’s amazingly apropos to me right now. We just said no to a shidduch for our daughter because all the information we received said the same thing. Great boy, baal midos, but he isn’t a “learner”. To me this means he isn’t a ben torah. What’s a ben torah? BP Totty comment: “Who among us is not in favor of long-time learning? I’ve been “out of yeshiva” for more than 20 years, yet still learn.”
Ben Torah comment: “There are tons more good reasons — like the effect it has on your home, on your Mitzvah performance, on your personality, on your children — all of which are excellent reasons.”
The happiest people in the world are, the ones that learn serious, there is nothing else that gives somone a bigger sipuk hanefesh other than torah. (i’m talking from experince) nothing else makes you feel more accomplished.
Says Rav Shimon Schwab, ztz”l:
“There is a clear understanding that even to function merely as a ‘baal habayis,’ it does not suffice today to become only a yodea sefer. Profound lamdanus is required to maintain the Torah-true integrity of those forced to earn a living in a non-Torah environment” (Selected Essays, p.124).
Who among us is not in favor of long-time learning? I’ve been “out of yeshiva” for more than 20 years, yet still learn.
What I do have an issue with is, learning at the expense of others health and well being. Know how bad I would love to attend the 11:00am Daf shuir in BP? But quitting my job will mean lots of unhappy moments for the family I chose to bring into the world.
There is a time an place for everything.
I disagree. If you choose to sacrifice yourself and learn, who have you harmed? If you find a wife who wishes to sacrifice herself that you might learn, who has she harmed?
I think you are applying your own life decisions to other people who have made contrary ones.
Limud Torah is the only thing that allows a person to live a life of that- Torah. In todays society there needs to be something to comabt th tuma. Torah is the thing that keeps us going.
There is nothing as important, saying that would you only want to be someone who involves themselves in something like that for a mere hr or too a day! “I save the world for 2hrs a day.. teh other time i spend keeping myself alive..”
Arguable I guess..
“If I showed you a pile of coins and gave you 1 hour to collect as much as you can, you would spend as much time gathering the gold as you could.”
You’re right – we WOULD do that – in order to be able to afford to pay rent, food, utility bills, clothing, tuition, etc. (something you are not doing when you are sitting all day in the Beis Medrash, as ideal as that might be to be able to afford to do – but most people can’t, so they have to earn a parnassah).
All Chazals that encourage people to work are also fulfilled by our Kollel people, and only exclude someone who has no means of support. Learning in Kollel is 100% a legitimate parnasa. If I become a baseball player and I have people pay to watch me play ball, that’s OK, but if I become a scholar and have people pay me to learn – that’s not?? If I got a job in a think-tank thinking of stuff all day, that’s wonderful – but if I get a job in Kollel thinking of Chidushei Torah that’s not?? Why should learning be any less? B’H today we have people who specifically want to support Kollelim, similar to Yissachar-Zevulun. If I were hired by these people to dance for them, I would be considered having a job. And it is no worse if they hire more to learn and provide them with Olam Habah instead of entertainment.
The Rama says it is a Midas Chasidus – praiseworthy – for someone who can become a Gadol B’Torah and make an independent living, but continues that not everyone is capable of this. It is clear that he is saying that if you have a choice between becoming a Godol B’Torah or making a living, becoming a Godol B’Torah comes first. But a Talmid Chacham does not have to be “employed.” The Vilna Gaon had no “job.” He was not the local Rabbi, Rosh Yeshiva, or anything. He was like the Aron Kodesh. In our days, the Chazon Ish, the Steipler, and yibd”l Rav Chaim Kanievsky had/have no “jobs”. Each are an Aron HaKodesh. Not everyone will become Moshe Rabbeinu, to be sure, but everyone should try to come as close as they can. And everyone admits that being Moshe Rabbeinu is something to look up to, strive for, and admire. Even if most of us don’t ever make it there. So too even if many people will not learn all day, we all must recognize that it is certainly a higher level, it is a prize and privilege and merit that we should all try to attain, since it provides us with a higher spiritual level, and reaching the highest level possible in this world is our goal. Today, thank G-d we live in a society where many, many people can learn all day. They recognize, BH, that learning Torah is better for your soul than practicing law. Or accounting. Or writing software. No question about it.
As Rav Hutner ZT’L used to point out – every utensil in the Bais HaMikdash had some kind of Avodah done with it. Except the Aron. The Aron did nothing but exist. The Aron represents the Talmid Chachom, the container of the Torah. It does not need to do any act. Its very presence is its success.
But quitting my job will mean lots of unhappy moments for the family I chose to bring into the world.
maybe so for your family
but there are many families, and i know some, where the situation is quite the opposite
for example:
the constant and deep Simcha experienced by GR, his kallah and their children (he learns 15 hrs/day or so, she works when she can, usually from home)is beautiful to see. they also have frequent financial difficulties but they deal with those also with Emunah and even, to some extent, with Simcha
But quitting my job will mean lots of unhappy moments for the family I chose to bring into the world.
I thought you were going to say for the school my children attend, when I tell them I am no longer paying tuition because I have joined a Kollel 🙂
My Moshgiach always said that the easiest life and the one with the most simcha is the life of a Kollel guy. It really is true.
As Rav Hutner ZT’L used to point out – every utensil in the Bais HaMikdash had some kind of Avodah done with it. Except the Aron. The Aron did nothing but exist. The Aron represents the Talmid Chachom, the container of the Torah. It does not need to do any act. Its very presence is its success.
Absolutely true, well known concept. I understand very well that not every bochur is up to learning full time or rosh yeshiva or mechanech material. I’d never argue that they aren’t worty. Just as all the keilim of the beis hamikdosh were holy. But the concept of ben torah does have the cahet of being special. The infntry foot soldier would never say that he is a general. He is needed, the general, great as he may be, can’t function without a foot soldier. But still, he is the general. Mahn malka rabbonon.
Prof – Its your call and your wallet. My only concern is the folks that are bullied into making this decision, whether they want this or not.
Poppa – True. Two grown adults can choose to live in a cardboard box under the freeway, if that’s what makes them happy. But did the kids get a vote?
OK, the cardboard box is extreme. But more to the point, when one side says, I’ve had enough, now its your turn to go cover the expensense, but the other partner says, I don’t have the abilibty to earn the same $ you do.. now what?
Mod 80 – you are of course right; there are some very happy people living that life. Its the very unhappy people (and the prevention of more unhappy people) I’m speaking about.
And who does this hurt, you ask? Its hurts the husband.. because he is not doing the job he was set on earth to do. And this is not some new-fangled American idea. Its in the kesubah we all (or will someday) agreed to.
Ben Torah-
Learning in Kollel is 100% a legitimate parnasa. If I become a baseball player and I have people pay to watch me play ball, that’s OK, but if I become a scholar and have people pay me to learn – that’s not?? If I got a job in a think-tank thinking of stuff all day, that’s wonderful – but if I get a job in Kollel thinking of Chidushei Torah that’s not?? Why should learning be any less?
It all depends on where the money comes from. If his parents are supporting him or if his wife is supporting him then yes it is a 100% legitimate form of income. If the money is coming from other sources, which is beyond the scope of this thread, then no, it is not a legitimate source of income.
The difference between being a baseball player and being supported by your fans and learning in Kollel and being supported by the community is that fans decide based on ones performance if they want to pay to watch you play. It’s totally their decision.
Theprof1 is hitting the nail on the head. We don’t have shtarke working boys anymore, at least not on the scale of a generation ago. Chances are the kind of working ben Torah whose kids are in shidduchim now will not find a son in law like him unless said boy ends up learning much longer.
And because learning after marriage is becoming so prevalent, one is not considered shtarke unless he plans to learn for at least “a couple of years.” They say this so cavalierly, not thinking about
– whose expense is this coming at
– the fact that if they’d look around many of the klei kodesh, maggidei shiur, etc. now started in their fields after five years in kollel.
Five years used to be considered long term. B”H we’ve had our years of plenty here to be able to come to a point where we can take things for granted… except we can’t anymore.
It’s a problem.
BP:
I hope these couples continue to take one another’s needs into account. I assume they do.
Why do you assume not?
As far as the kids, it’s a good point. I’m not sure. Generally, the burden on the kids is not as bad as the parents.
I assume if they realize it has become too much of a burden on the kids, they take that into account as well.
You’re right poppa; when the kids start to suffer, the decision to work becomes a priority. But why wait till you’re cracking under the strain? Or worse, why wait till your wife / parents / inlaws are cracking under the strain?
Plus, by the time this wake up call rings, hubby is close to 30? 32? has no training, and is probably 5-7 years away from replacing his wife’s salary.
Unless he expects her to keep working. But if she can hold down 2 jobs (work and house duties) why can’t he? (work and learning after work)
The bigger issue is, its become mandatory (at least in the circles I revolve in) to follow this track, wether you like it or not, whether you can afford it or not.
And that complusion needs to change.
Dr. Pepper –
It all depends on where the money comes from. If his parents are supporting him or if his wife is supporting him then yes it is a 100% legitimate form of income. If the money is coming from other sources, which is beyond the scope of this thread, then no, it is not a legitimate source of income.
The difference between being a baseball player and being supported by your fans and learning in Kollel and being supported by the community is that fans decide based on ones performance if they want to pay to watch you play. It’s totally their decision.
Wrong (to put it bluntly.) All the tzadikim supporting the Bnei Torah are giving the money voluntarily; no less than when you buy that Yankees ticket. Except they get a lot more out of it than you get from that Yankee (or Red Sox) ticket.
Kollel is not Tzedakah for aniyim. There is a big difference. Kollel support is support in return for learning. Tzedakah is support in return for nothing. As long as I am earning your support – regardless of whether it is through defending you in court or learning Choshen Mishpat – I am employed. None of this “living off tzedakah” material has anything to do with kollel people. This is a common error. Tzedakah means that I give you money for no other reason that you need it – I do not demand anything in return for my donation. If I do demand something in return for my donation, it is not a donation but payment for services rendered. So if I pay you to entertain me, to be my personal trainer, to sing and dance for me, to be my baby sitter, I am not a baby sitter living off charity, but rather a paid worker. And so the statements about people living off tzedakah refer to people who are given money because they are poor, with no expectation from the donor that they learn, or work, or sleep, or do whatever they want. However, if someone gives money to you because he wants to merit the zechus of supporting Torah, and expects you to learn Torah because that is what he is supporting you to do, then that is not tzedakah at all but rather a simple business deal, the same as if I pay you to play baseball.
If I give you tzedakah money because you are poor, and you sit home all day watching television, then you may be an unproductive member of society but you are not a thief – I gave you tezdakah for food, and you are spending it on food. It was my choice to do that. But if I give you money to learn in Kollel and you stay home all day watching TV then you are a thief, because you took money specifically to learn and you did not keep your end of the bargain. Thus, taking money for learning in Kollel is NOT living of tzedakah. Since I, the recipient, must provide something in return for payment received, that is a simple business deal. If I do NOT have to provide anything in return for payment received, that is Tzedakah. Since Kollel people must learn Torah in return for the payments they receive, they are NOT living at all off Tzedakah. Not any more than any person who renders services for payment received. (As an aside, incidentally and for the record, the Halachah is that you are nowadays ALLOWED to live off Tzedakah to learn – see the Ramah and Shach in Hilchos Talmud Torah).
Regarding maaser – The maaser goes to the Yeshiva. The Yeshiva pays the Kollel. The Maaser is only going to them in return for and under the condition that they learn. This is not living off Tzedakah. This is a receipt of money in exchange for doing something, which is not the same as living off Tzadakah. This is providing a service that is considered valuable to those who provide the payment. it is no different than a singer getting money to sing or a baseball player getting money to play. The fact that you are allowed to use your maaser to support these fellows is no different than the fact that you are allowed to use your maaser to support Tzedakah organizations that pay fundraisers, administrators and other workers. Maaser is not the same as Tzedakah. Nobody would consider the head of Hatzolah as someone who “lives off tzedakah” even though he is paid through donations given to the organization. The same thing applies to someone who learns, and because he learns, is supported by whatever source, including maaser.
BP:
I agree with the compulsion issue. You’re preaching to the choir on that one.
At the same time, I respect the rights of adults to decide what sort of life they will lead.
I think often people forget that the wives deliberately chose this life, and would never have even consented to date this guy unless he was committing to this life.
Also, while I have much respect for working people who also learn, I don’t think it is fair to ask why someone would want more than that. As wonderful as learning 2-3 hours a say is, learning 10-11 is that much more wonderful.
Ben Torah-
I respectfully ask if you can please keep the posts shorter and to the point, I had a hard time following it.
After quoting my post you (bluntly) said “Wrong”. Was that referring to the whole post or just part of it? I know it’s just my opinion (and I’m not trying to push it as fact) but I’d be surprised if you don’t agree with most of it.
It all depends on where the money comes from. If his parents are supporting him or if his wife is supporting him then yes it is a 100% legitimate form of income.
I hope you agree with this, I can’t imagine why anyone would have a problem.
If the money is coming from other sources, which is beyond the scope of this thread, then no, it is not a legitimate source of income.
I’m apologize for being purposely vague over here, I was hoping that other would realize I was referring to fraud with out explicitly spelling it out.
The difference between being a baseball player and being supported by your fans and learning in Kollel and being supported by the community is that fans decide based on ones performance if they want to pay to watch you play. It’s totally their decision.
Again, over here, I was being vague. The “community support” that I was referring to was in the form of extra tuition and the likes. You’ll probably agree that this form of “payment” is forced regardless of whether or not one “employs” the Kollel fellow. (The reason I chose to be vague was that I didn’t want other posters with different agendas to hijack this thread.)
Of course I agree that if one has a relationship with another where the agreement is that one supports the other in Kollel then it is between the two of them and no one else’s business.
You deserve credit though for the comparison although I don’t like the way it skews the importance of learning verses playing professional sports (if you were to compare their salaries).
(Sorry if I just violated what I asked you not to do.)
Ben Torah asked in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shemoneh-esrei-starting-with-minyan
Are there any halachic guidelines when the “short Shemoneh Esrei” (i.e. the Shatz says it before the tzibbur through kedusha) is permitted?
I assume you are able to read the Mechaber in its original,
BTW I will let you in on a secret the Shulchan is very easily available.
???? ???? ????? ???? ???.?. ?? ???? ????? – ??????
????. ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????:’???’ ?-‘????’ ????? ????? ?????? “??? ?????”, ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????.???: ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??. ??? ??????. ????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ?.
???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ? ??? ??????? ????? ???, ???? ???? ??????, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ‘????’, ????? ?’ ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ‘??? ?????’ ?????? ?????? ???????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ‘??? ????’, ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ‘???’ ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ????? ?? ????? ??”? (??? ??? ?????”?). ???? ?????”? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????, ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ????? ????, ??? ??? ?????? ????.
???? ??? ???? ? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ‘???’, ??? ????????? ???? ??? ????? ??????, ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ‘???’, ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??”?, ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ‘???’, ??????? ?? ?????? ?????, ???? ???? ???? ??????. ???? ??? ???? ????? ??”?, ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ‘???’, ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ??????
The consensus of poskim is That is to be done only in time of great need. Piskei Teshuvos brings from ???”? ?’ ?????? ????? ??”? that the practice in some Yeshivos to do a Short Mincha should be discouraged.
theprof1:
I disagree with your earlier post. The fact the someone is not a “learner” does not mean he is not a ben torah. The definition of ben torah is not someone who learns the whole day.
rabbiofberlin: you quoted the rambam but failed to remember that kollel money is not tzedaka. anyeays rav moshe ZT’L has a teshuva explaining why even according to the rambam we can take actual tzedaka money for learning
Dr. Pepper –
Sorry for my curtness (especially saying wrong), I regretted that quickly — but not quick enough to edit. I just was disappointed in the “tone” of your original post, but even that was due to a misunderstanding on my part, considering your recent clarification. My apologies again.
I hope you agree with this…
I do in fact.
I’m apologize for being purposely vague over here…
I didn’t quite get that, but do agree with your point. Although such instances are so rare, I’m surprised it was brought up.
Again, over here, I was being vague…
Again, I missed your point before. Probably due to speed reading. You have a valid question here. Although similarly, someone who entered the general workforce in a low compensated position would be in the same boat in this regard.
Thanks for the clarification.
ROB –
I explained in great detail how kollel guys are not on tzedakah. They are being compensated for a service. (In addition to my point from the Ramah and Shach.)
hashemis1 –
Good question. And there is a good answer to your question. I just don’t remember it at my fingertips. I believe it is along the lines that you can give it as maaser since the “benefit” is spiritual. But don’t quote me on that.
good.jew, I agree. I haven’t read the spinoff thread on ben Torah yet but the problem is that in this culture, boys will stay in full time learning because they have to. These boys are the good boys, who will raise beautiful families, be a credit to their Creator, families, and communities, but as long as they’re learning with some level of geshmak (or even past that, as long as they’re not noxious to their environment) they stay in learning. They need to get married to get permission to leave, go to school part time, etc.
There are, as time goes on, fewer and fewer working boys with a yeshivish mindset (i.e. seriously koveia itim, choices for entertainment). Now don’t get me wrong, these are great guys, tiyere yidden in my book, who deserve great girls, but the option of shtark ben Torah-working boy is no longer seen as viable by many.
How grateful we all must be for the relative menucha and affluence Hashem gave us to recoup, from the churban of Europe and American assimilation, but we can’t deny that we may need some paradigm shifting.
BT said:
I explained in great detail how kollel guys are not on tzedakah. They are being compensated for a service.
I agree; Kollel is payment for work, just like a doctor. I will not get into the hetairim required to get paid for such work, as I assume a Rov was asked before the Bochur started Kollel.
However, getting a tuition deduction is not payment, it is at best a professional courtesy, and if not then it is Tzedaka, taken from those who do pay in full (perhaps willingly) and those who donate to the school.
The simple way to tell which one your school provides is to see if the G’vir’s children who are in Kollel’s also have the same tuition requirements as the poor kollel bochur.
If the Rich Kollel Bochur’s tuition is higher or full, then there is no professional courtesy. If they also don’t pay (even though it is well known that they can), then there is professional courtesy.
Tzippi, what are you talking about?!!! I know plenty of people who work and are beney torah. I know plenty of people who work and are talmidei chachomim. So please don’t tell me that it’s either or. That is slap in the face to these righteous jews who follow this practice. They are the ones who truly follow the halacha.
If the Kollel guy pays the same as the parent who works as a low paid waiter, they are both in the same boat and you have no taainas to either.
If the Kollel guy pays the same as the parent who works as a low paid waiter, they are both in the same boat and you have no taainas to either.
They are both in the same boat. Taking Tzedaka. (not that it is a problem for either one, I am just bringing in what seems to be the facts).
In Chareidi schools, even anyone paying “full” price, is being subsidized. Unless your Reichman or someone like that, you are not paying even cost. That applies to even the upper middle class.
BT:
What do you mean by “Chareidi schools”?
Perhaps you are correct, as I am not aware of the situation in Boro Park or Beni Brak. Please explain.
yecheskel- What Tzippi meant to say was that today a bochur who is not in yeshive has a MUCH harder time to remain Erlich! he doesn’t have the insulation of the yeshiva velt. Therefore it is harder to find a good, erlich boy who is working!
(In the times of our parents it was a different story.. The world was a different place!)
“All the tzadikim supporting the Bnei Torah are giving the money voluntarily”
This is not true. The Israeli government provides stipends to yeshiva students through tax revenues. And in the US, yeshiva students are potentially eligible for Pell Grants, also funded through tax revenues.
As a big spending liberal Democrat, I don’t have a problem with government spending on good causes such as this. But you should not pretend that everyone is paying their taxes voluntarily or that all taxpayers are tzadikkim.
(Do I get mitzvah credit simply by being a US taxpayer because a small fraction of my tax dollars goes to support yeshiva students?)
“The Rambam is unequivocal. He absolutely forbids to live on the proceeds of learning Torah.”
rabbiofberlin is correct. While many other rishonim disagreed with the Rambam — and it would be sufficient to cite those sources — there is absolutely no question about his opinion in this matter, as the quote from rabbiofberlin shows. You can look up the original in Hebrew; the translation here is accurate. How can those who distort the words of the Holy Rambam call themselves Bnei Torah?
charles – the government also supports college. Our taxes pay for those secular colleges.
Thanks, notI, and my apologies to yechezkel and others. I was referring to kids today, not the married working men. In fact, my husband and others in the family and community have done such a good job of exemplifying the working ben Torah that my kids do see it as a viable option. It is still not so easy to find these boys, shidduchim-wise.
Charlie:
You don’t get any “mitzva credit” for anything your tax dollars go to; whether it be supporting torah, poor people, or anything.
The reason for this is that you did not have any choice in giving it.
An essential element in tzedaka is that choosing to give it.
One of my Roshei Yeshiva says that one would think that a communist society is the highest chessed. Truthfully, the problem with communism is that there is zero chessed. Nobody is giving of free will.
Robinhood’s victims did not do chessed when he robbed them.
You don’t get any “mitzva credit” for anything your tax dollars go to; whether it be supporting torah, poor people, or anything.
The reason for this is that you did not have any choice in giving it.
An essential element in tzedaka is that choosing to give it.
Not to be annoying, but BB 9a (bottom) disagrees, and says taxes do count towards Schar. (although I don’t see it brought down as Halacha in Rambam, perhaps because there is no Nafka Mina)
“In Chareidi schools, even anyone paying “full” price, is being subsidized. Unless your Reichman or someone like that, you are not paying even cost. That applies to even the upper middle class.”
I personally know people who are not very rich and pay full tuition without subsidies. They realize that tuition is a priority and vacations are not.
Ben Torah: Your analogies between kollel members and other professions is misleading, I think. Baseball players, academics, lawyers, doctors, and entertainers are all paid because they DO SOMETHING – they produce something tangible – either they draw fans to the game or entertainment venue, or they heal the sick, represent the client, or produce scholarly works. These professionals do not expect to be paid money to sit in law school, medical school, graduate school, training camp, ect. on the basis of their future production value.
Many kollel men will go on to be productive members of the community – poskim, rabbeim, mashgichim, roshei yeshiva, dayanim, writers of seforim. Most will not (thats the sad truth; most people learning in kollel do not have the intellectual ability or personal qualities to go on to produce something for others with their Torah learning – they will likely sit and learn forever).
In either case, learning in kollel is at best comparable to studying for a future profession. I am unaware of any students that get paid for their schooling efforts alone. Perhaps the community may wish to sponsor the studies of particularly gifted students that can be expected to become productive practitioners of the Torah they study. But to make that the standard and expect the kehilla to sponsor mediocre students with little potential for further accomplishments, i just don’t know . .
RSRH:
Learning Torah all day, and doing nothing else at all, IS THE MOST productive way to serve society.
And no one should object to donors who WANT the zchus to pay the Kollel yungerleit, just like you don’t object to someone who wants to buy a baseball ticket paying those lowlife players.
Learning Torah is doing something, and not just something, but everything. AND they are keeping you and I safe, and keeping the world running. Just by sitting and learning Torah all day, and doing NOTHING ELSE.
BP Totty-
I understand from your various posts that you are not in favor of long term learning. That is perfectly fine. Your children dont have to learn full time for as long as they can or want.
But can I respectfully ask that you not put down those of us who do want this zechus and this lifestyle?
You sound like a frum ehrlicher yid who follows the laws of the Torah. Why would you want to be constantly talking against those who dedicate their lives to learning that which you firmly beleive in? It just doesnt sound right for a Ben Torah like yourself to keep speaking (or in this case writing) against those who love Torah so much that they want it day and night.
I know you are upset at those in society who take advantage and try to get money (whether thru tuition or whatever else) from those who dont want to give. And I completely understand you. (which is why I am asking so respectfully)
But what about those of us who dont do that? Those of us who get supported thru means that dont bother anyone else?
Can you respect us?
Thank you whatrutalkingabt for saying what we’ve all been thinking!
Whatrutalkingabt: I can respect you for that. I can respect your life choice, just as I can respect anyone else’s choices. Can you respect my choice to study long and hard to become a professional, contribute to society through my professional activities, and be an or lagoyim through my daily interactions and scrupulous regulation of my conduct by the Torah? Can you agree that we are equal but different so long as we both adhere to God’s law in all that we do – whatever that may be? Can you respect that I respect your choice, but may choose not to support it, and give my maaser to the family down the street whose father was fired from his job?
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