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In the scientific world, it is considered to be a “scientific fact” that humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees.
Considering that fact, how can any Jew (who considers himself Torah observant or Orthodox) not reject this lie? To do otherwise, is clear-cut apikorsus. Yet, sadly, too many of our less than fortunate brethren — some of who even consider themselves Orthodox — accept this joke.
And if one does indeed (appropriately) reject this “scientific fact”, how can he take seriously other aspects of modern science?
Ah, yes… nothing like another good old “Science vs. Torah” debate.
Was this inspired by my blog post (and hence your comment there)?
The Wolf
I heard a thing that there is a midrash somewhere that people were acting really really bad, like animals. So Hashem said, if you want to be like animals, I’ll make you into animals. And slowly they started changing into monkeys.
So in fact it is true that we share a common ancestor: the human!
(It could be that it was by Dor Enos they might’ve started looking like monkeys but I’m not sure)
How do you know it is not true?
Maybe the common ancestor was human. Maybe they are all descended from Odom. Who says humans can’t evolve into animals?
Do you believe that Hashem COULD NOT in fact create an animal that shares DNA that appears to be commonly found in both apes and humans? If a pig valve could replace one in the human heart, why could there not have been a creation that has similar qualities to both species. We do not actually know the English translation of every animal named in the Torah (what IS an hyrax, after all?), and many animals are now extinct (Dodo Bird, Passenger Pigeon, etc.), so maybe this “common ancestor” is likewise extinct. Why does it have to be contradictory to the Torah? I believe Torah and Madah can be compatible. Sometimes Madah gets it wrong, but so what? There is the belief that the world might be Geocentric and not heliocentric, also. Some prominent Gedolim in the Gemarah put forth that argument, something which science has proved to be incorrect, as the earth and (other planets) indisputably revolves around the Sun and not vice versa.
If you believe that G-d created the animals individually, who is to say that he did not create a common ancestor and facilitate the process now referred to as “evolution?”
This theory has not been proven as fact at all. It is and will remain a theory! As noted in the chapter on Human Evolution, the THEORY of Human Evolution
This is used as an excuse for intolerable animal like behaviors that people succumb to.. they now blame their inherent traits and characteristics. This again is not proven as fact though it is taught in schools —where they teach evolution. There are ways to disprove the theory.
Reference:
The Living Environment; Biology by Rick Hallman, AMSCO Publication
Aish.com has a few article on this topic
“This theory has not been proven as fact at all”
Memo – then how do you explain the fact human dna and primate dna is almost identical?
popa, the Torah says animals were created BEFORE man.
I believe that most people are descended from Adam, but a select few try very hard with their conduct, or misconduct to convince others that they descend from the animal kingdom.
There are several misconceptions here.
The first is that scientific hypotheses are assessed not based on some ideal standard of perfect prediction, but in comparison to other possible hypotheses. The confirmation of the predictions are the facts.
Basically, evolutionary theory is successful at predictions. For example, one would predict that human populations who life at high altitudes would develop over time some way to cope with the lack of oxygen, and in fact a gene variant was discovered in Tibetans recently that does just that. One would also expect that populations that have been at high altitudes for a longer period of time would have had time to develop better coping mechanisms; in fact that has been discovered to be the case as the genetic mechanisms of Tibetans is more efficient than the increased hemoglobin production of indigenous peoples in the Andes, an area settled much more recently by humans. Any theory that would compete with evolutionary theory would need to predict these and thousands of other facts; the opponents of evolution have failed to come up with any such competing theory. The theory that humans and apes have a common ancestor also makes a number of predictions: Fossils of creatures intermediate in form, DNA similarities the magnitude of whose correlation should correspond to the fossil record, and susceptibility to similar diseases. Again, these predictions have been confirmed. These facts do not make humans any less special, it just shed light on how HaShem went about the process of creation.
The second misconception is that evolution is incompatible with Torah. Nothing could be further from the truth. Evolution is one way that HaShem allows His creatures to adapt to changing circumstances. Understanding the scientific processes HaShem has created gives us an even greater appreciation of His greatness.
Evolutionary theory is so important to modern biology that if you reject it, you really do have to reject all of modern biology. Fortunately, there is no need for a believing Jew to do this. Nor is there even a need to doubt the scriptures and midrash that describe a different sequence of creation. As Rashi notes in his comments to the very first verse in the entire Torah, the Torah was not given to us for the purpose of explaining the sequence. The Torah instead tells us how to live in HaShem’s amazing universe.
Charliehall,1) there are big holes in the evolutionary theory; 2) How do mountinous people have a special gene — siyatta de’Shemaya (there is a gemora in Shabbos about why people who live in certain areas have different features).
Ben Torah, just because one thing is not true does not mean the rest is not either. Do you believe in electricity, computers, nuclear bombs? It is all modern science.
Minyan gal, how do people and monkeys have similar dnas? How do people and pigs have similar internal organs (more similar than monkeys and people)?
Charliehall, which theory better explains the facts than the evolution theory? Creationism. But it is not even up for consideration by most modern scientists — that would obligate them to do God’s will. These re’shaim would never agree to that.
mdd:
There are two different types of evolution: Microevolution and Macroevolution.
Microevolution is the evolution of small traits WITHIN a given species, such as mentioned by charliehall (hemoglobin production in Tibetan monks). This is an observable phenomenon and is also documented in the Gemorah in Shabbos 31a.
Macroevolution is the evolution of one species into an entirely different species. This has never been observed.
I think though, that the Torah makes it pretty clear that (macro)evolution is not a compatible belief with Torah. Bereishis 1:27 uses “bri’ah” which is creation from something not formerly there as opposed to “ye’tzirah”, which is formation of something from something else. (Such as in the famous “yotzer or u’varah choshech” because light was formed from Hashem’s light while darkness which is antithetical to Hashem had to be comepletly created.) So too, if we evolved from apes it seems to me that “yetzirah” would have been a better option.
As opposed to this the pasuk in Bereishis 2:7 does use the word ‘ytzirah” when it speak about how Hashem formed man from dust.
Also many of us are familair with the Midrash (Rashi brings them in perek beis) that speaks about how hashem took dust from the four corners of the world and dirt from under the mizbe’ach when He created man. If man is just an evolutionary step on the ladder of primates this would mean that this Midrash applies to monkeys too.
I think that it is more likely that Hashem uses similar templates for certain creatures according to their needs. Because this would require belief in Hashem science chose to believe that these templates are the result of evolution.
Evolutionary theory is so important to modern biology that if you reject it, you really do have to reject all of modern biology.
Charlie:
What do you mean by that? You seem to know a lot more about science than I do, but isn’t biology mostly about the way things work as they are today? Is understanding cellular function, or how different enzymes and chemicals interact in living things dependent on evolutionary theory?
Wolf: Yes.
Ben Torah,
You are aware, I assume, that my post was not really about evolution, right? It was just a semi-humorous comment about something that we all could agree on.
The Wolf
Charliehall, which theory better explains the facts than the evolution theory? Creationism. But it is not even up for consideration by most modern scientists — that would obligate them to do God’s will. These re’shaim would never agree to that.
Mdd,
Let’s posit, just for the sake of argument, that Creationism DOES fit the facts better than evolution. But how does Creation by one God fit the facts better than creation by two gods, or ten, or a hundred? How does Creation by God fit the facts better than creation by the Invisible Pink Unicorn? How does Creationism fit the facts better than Last Thursdayism?
The fact is that there is just as much evidence for Creationism by God as there is for any of the other theories I mentioned.
The Wolf
What i meant was that they want to be materialists. If they admit that the world was created, they will have to investigate who did it. They do not want that. Categorically.
Be’kitsur, WM, do not hock.
What i meant was that they want to be materialists.
You really believe that the entire edifice upon which evolution is built is simply a desire to not be bound by the Torah? Do you realize how silly that sounds (not to mention the fact that it is simply an ad hominem argument)?
The Wolf
Wolf:
You do realize that even if one can reconcile evolution and Judaism, it is only by realizing that evolution would have been impossible except as directed by One G-d.
Avraham avinu figured that out. He looked at the world and concluded that the only possibility to explain its existence is creation by one G-d.
Otherwise, why do you believe in one G-d? Maamad har sinai only proves that there is at least one G-d.
Post Darwin science thinks that what Avraham did is irrelevant, they would laugh me for mentioning some desert dweller from 4000 years ago. Are you laughing?
Honestly, I don’t understand how Avraham Avinu knew the world was created by one G-d. Surely, he was vindicated – by no less than direct prophecy from G-d saying so. But absent that vindication, how are we to believe that he “knew” it, when all the best minds in the world in the next 4,000 years were collectively unable to “know” it.
I know every cheder teaches the story of Avram Avinu this way. I wonder if that is what causes people to seek “proof” for their faith.
“Basically, evolutionary theory is successful at predictions.”
Charliehall, evolutionary THEORY is as succesful at predictions as it is unsuccessful. Nobody could PREDICT how things were before recorded history. Scientists can theorize and make assumptions, no matter how intelligent and smart and knowledgeable they are. But that’s where it ends. They do not KNOW what happened. Evolutionists adopted their theory as a scientific” FACT.
Evolutionary theory is ALL THEORY based on assumptions based on the personal ideoligy of the scientists coming to “scientific conclusions” all “supported” merely on “scientific” assumptions.
You are right though that believing in the process of slow evolution into what the world is today does not contradict believing in a Creator, or even in the fact that the world “as we know it” is 5771 years old. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan writes about it in one of his books. I forgot how exactly he comes to his conclusion, (of course his ideas are all supported from accepted and revered sources, which he brings forth). I hope I find that book again, as I read it when I was a teenager and forgot exactly how he comes to the conclusion that evolution fits with the way the Torah states how old the world is.
Those scientists and people though who beleive that the world was created by itself, will eventually look as foolish as the ancient Egyptians who believed in their gods. For proof of a Creator we don’t need to go further than to acces our common sense. But as I read somewhere, common sense is very uncommon.
Wolf:
You do realize that even if one can reconcile evolution and Judaism, it is only by realizing that evolution would have been impossible except as directed by One G-d.
Avraham avinu figured that out. He looked at the world and concluded that the only possibility to explain its existence is creation by one G-d.
Otherwise, why do you believe in one G-d? Maamad har sinai only proves that there is at least one G-d.
Ah, now you’ve gone an used that magic word — “proves.”
Let me first get one thing out of the way — I believe in God. I believe that however it is that we (and the rest of the universe) came to be — it was the result of the work of HKBH.
That being said, I don’t believe in God because His existence has been proven — heck, I’m not even sure that you *can* logically prove His existence. I believe in him because I believe — to me it makes sense. Is that somewhat irrational? Perhaps — but as the song goes “it’s what I believe.”
And, to be honest, I don’t *need* proof. I’m perfectly happy living with my “gut feeling” that He is there.
But once you use that magic word, then you are now changing the game from one of belief to one of evidence and fact. On that count, there is no more proof for one God than there is for multiple gods, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or even Last Thursdayism.
*That’s* my point. My belief and my knowledge are two different things. I’m perfectly comfortable stating that I believe in God without being able to prove it. However, I would never use my belief in Him as proof that anyone else should accept Him — including people who are satisfied with the evidence for evolution.
The Wolf
I heard a great story (i forgot many of the details but the point is the same)
A rabbi and a professor (with their grandchildren) are seatmates on a plane. The professor sees how the Rabbis grandchildren are honoring their grandfather- food, drinks, making sure he’s comfy…The professor asks the Rabbi how come his own grandchildren don’t treat him with this respect. So the Rabbi says you believe in evolution so you are closer to being a monkey than your children so they treat you with less respect. I, however am closer to matan torah than my kids so they treat me with greater respect.
WM, I do not think that is silly at all — they want to be free of the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven ( not nessesarilly in the Jewish definition of it).
Squeak, “all the best minds in the world…”? By far not. From Sir Issak Newton to my college physics professor (and others) concurred.
WM, I do not think that is silly at all — they want to be free of the yoke of the Kingdom of Heaven ( not nessesarilly in the Jewish definition of it).
Yes, that is indeed silly. Evolutionary biologists who believe in the theory believe in it because they believe the evidence supports it, not because they’re looking for an excuse to escape from God. Your saying that is akin to Christians saying that Jews aren’t Christians because they don’t want to believe in Jesus.
And, in any event, it doesn’t really matter because evolution stands (or falls) on the evidence, and not on the real (or imagined) motives of those who put forth the theory. In other words, don’t argue ad hominem — address the facts and flaws of the theory, not the motives of the people putting it forth.
The Wolf
Evolutionary biologists who believe in the theory believe in it because they believe the evidence supports it, not because they’re looking for an excuse to escape from God
quite logical deduction
however by and large the underlying reason is because they wish to escape from the control of G-d. you can see this or not, depends on your clarity of vision. the Gedolim have always said this.
and it does matter quite a bit. as a matter of knowing the Emes and showing it to others. and as a matter of partial explanation to the supposedly strong question: if so many smart scientists believe in evolution that is proof that it must be true. why else would they believe in it if not for the cold hard facts?
ad hominem arguments are against the rules in the game of debating, but are not necessarily unrelated to the issue
Wolf:
Our fundamental belief is that G-d exists as one controlling all powerful being as a matter of simple logic.
Otherwise, we could not be held accountable for any of our actions, since we could defend that we did not know G-d existed, or that there was not another god for us to serve. This is discussed by R’ Elchonon Wasserman, where he posits that every person in the world is responsible for the 7 mitzvos bnei noach by due of its being obvious that there is One G-d.
Har sinai only shows that there is a G-d who gave us a torah, it does not presuppose the existence of Zues and his cronies on Mt. Olympus.
I’m sorry if this is against science, but the existence of the world proves beyond any doubt that there is One G-d. Anyone who doesn’t believe that doesn’t really believe that there is One G-d, so they are an apikores and they should make kiddush on mevushal wine because their wine is yayin nesech.
WM , Your are hashkofos are very, very wrong. Avrahan Avinu went around the world PROVING to people that there is one God who is the Creator. What you are saying is alomost bordering on apikorsus.
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