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We are a baal teshuva family with an income that just gets us by. Our high school boys want to stay in learning and as their argument they tell us that parnassa in not in our hands anyway, but in Hashem’s. I argue back that Hashem gave us saichel to assess the situation we are in and act accordingly. As much as I would want them to stay in learning, since I see that they’re, B”H, very dedicated, I don’t find it possible in our current situation. We are not in the position to help them and I, frankly, don’t believe that living off a rich father-in-law is best for the sholom bais in their, Beezras Hashem, future families. Up until now I was pretty sure as how to guide my kids and now I’m confused.
How about a compromise? 2/3 day yeshiva and take some courses, working towards a degree.
My BIL did his associates while in Yeshiva and it landed him a great job when he got married. He continued to get his bachelors after that. [His associates was practical]
D9:
Many people learn for many years even without a rich father or father in law. Certainly before they are married, there can be very little harm.
I think you need to let your sons develop into the people they wish to be; much as you developed into the person you wished to become, despite your parents intentions.
Parnassah, while being in Hashem’s hands, is still our achrayus to earn. Hashem decides how much we will earn, but like buying a Lotto ticket, ya gotta be in it to win it. The money will not fall from the sky, neither will it grow on a burning bush in the backyard. So tell your boys to go learn part of the day and get educated part of the day so they won’t have to depend on mommy and daddy for money. Remind them that when they B”EH have sons of their own who are probably learning, that THEY will likely not be able to support them if they were not educated in a field that brings in enough parnassah. That is going to be the unpleasant eye-opener of many kids of the next generation, I fear.
I honestly think you should let them decide. If they are seriously into learning then for starters, their Yeshiva may or probably will give them a scholarship, maybe even full. When they get married, they may or may not be able to make parnussa. Getting a college education is in no way a guarantee, and their are many who have done better without.
If they would like to earn a degree, they could do so on-line, without missing out on sedorim, and going to a physical campus. One of my friends in Yeshiva got an accounting degree through correspondence off hours in Yeshiva, with the Rosh Yeshiva’s knowledge. Probably the only one I know of.
I would suggest have them discuss the predicament with their Mashgiach or some other Talmid Chahcham that hopefully both of you respect. Being supportive is important, and respecting them for their accomplishments.
My feeling is, that it’s a lot easier to work hard and be dedicated to something if it’s important to you. If they don’t see the importance for planning for Parnussah now, they will probably not be dedicated to secular studies, on the other hand if and when they need it for parnussah, they may be far more dedicated.
Good luck!
fabie- I like your post. If this is what they truly want than its pointless to take them out of learning. Kal hakavod to them.
Isnt it possible to go to yeshiva and college at the same time? say touro or something like that?
Why not a get a parnasah and at least you can learn in yeshiva without any worries.. you have something that you can use… I know many people that got degrees and are in yeshiva/Kollel….
D9, I feel terrible over your predicament. It is a very tough decision. While here I often post that people should learn a parnasa, it seems like your boys are very sincere and self-motivated. I am against Yeshivos forbidding college and secular studies across the board, but think every boy must be treated as an individual. If they truly excel in learning, and can become the next poskim, then maybe they should stay only in learning. However, we do see so many families struggling to pay the bills. It is such a difficult decision and very hard to know what Hashem wants here. They need to think it over very carefully, fully aware of how difficult it is for many families. If they still want to only learn, then maybe they should.
What about a compromise? If college is not an option they are happy with, what about a “blue collar” type career path? They can take a quick course in appliance repair, for example, and become apprentices 1/2 day, while they learn. Then they can open their own businesses and work as much as they feel they need to to make ends meet at any given point in their lives, and learn the rest of the time…
D9
Your question is really beyond the scope of the YWN coffee room. If you have a Rav or Posek who you ask your sheilos to, then maybe he should be asked regarding what’s best. Or find an appropriate Rabbi to discuss this with, maybe even your sons Rosh Yeshivah (if he has a reputation of being reasonable and openminded).
“, on the other hand if and when they need it for parnussah, they may be far more dedicated.”
Fabie you posted really well. However, by the time some boys wake up to the reality that they cannot make a parnassah and are not trained for anything, it may be too late. Let’s say they get married and their wives agree to support for five years. After five years, do you really think those wives will be thrilled to have to support them while they go for training or schooling that they could have far more easily done before having the responsibilities of a wife and possibly children?
I think SRPsych has an excellent option.
d9, being a baal teshuva yourself you probaly understand the desire for more torah and learning and their is no reason for you to discorage their will to learn. as they correctly said, parnassah is all in the hands of the abishter and if they are learning torah for hashem, parnassah isnt a fear. every parent davens for their children to be talmedei chachamim but many along the way discorage it way to much so please allow them to remain in yeshiva as long as they like and leave the parnassah up to hashem, believe me He knows how to run the world.
At YU and Touro you can do both! And the learning is as good as at any “all Torah” yeshiva.
That said, I would like to say something as a professor that may surprise some of you. Most college students are insufficiently mature to take full advantage of the university environment. There is no need to rush college. The people who try to pretend that university education is asur ignore the many gedolim over the past mellenium who attended university and even earned advanced degrees — but almost every one spent years in Torah learnong prior to starting university. I would suggest that everyone consult with his/her rabbi to determine when/if university is the right decision.
D9: Make sure they marry someone who is a dedicated as they are. If they really mean it, Bezras Hashem, they will not have Shalom Bayis issues.
The people who try to pretend that university education is asur ignore the many gedolim over the past millennium who attended university and even earned advanced degrees…
Perhaps, but the people who pretend that college is a chiyuv are ignoring far more gedolim. Let’s agree it is proper under some circumstances.
Popa,
I have never held that everyone should attend university. I would agree that it is proper under some circumstances, and hope that this position will become the norm in the frum world.
charlie:
I didn’t think you were saying everybody had to. I was addressing people who do think that. Some people on this thread seem to think it is ok to advise a stranger that his kids must attend college.
Every boy needs to have plan to make a positive contribution regardless of what his goals are. If he sees himself as the modern equivalent of the tribe of Levi and sees that he has a future as a teacher of Torah, he needs to start planning for that role. He has to see that he has the talents needed to become an effective teacher, and then be willing to develop those talents. He has to get honest feedback about his potential as a teacher. If the feedback is that teaching is not for him, then he has to find another area to make a contribution.
Sitting in learning as long as possible and expecting to be supported by a rich father in law is not a plan.
Sitting in learning as long as possible and expecting to be supported by a rich father in law is not a plan
-Unless one has a rich father in law.
One who has the privilege of being supported by a rich father in law for several years has a heavy obligation to give something back to Clal Yisroel, just as we take for granted that the rich can not ignore the material needs of the poor.
Josh:
Like learning Torah, and supporting the world?
popa_bar_abba:
“Like learning Torah, and supporting the world?”
You hit the nail on the head. Somebody who learns for several years owes no debts to society – society is indebted to him.
Learning Torah al minat she-lo laasot is not learning.
This is learning for the purpose of avoiding one’s normal obligations.
This is learning for the purpose of avoiding interactions with other Jews who actually have to work.
Learning Torah al minat she-lo laasot is not learning.
This is learning for the purpose of avoiding one’s normal obligations.
This is learning for the purpose of avoiding interactions with other Jews who actually have to work.
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Why don’t you tell us exactly who you are accusing of learning al minas shelo laasos?
“a heavy obligation”
Actually it works in favor of those who actually go into teaching and leadership roles.
Gadol HaMetzuvah VeOseh m’me she-aino Metzuvah Ve-Oseh
Fulfilling actual obligations earns greater heavenly reward than doing positive deeds that one is not obligated to do.
D9, the Torah teaches us to be very careful in monetary matters and to plan ahead to avoid situations where one will be pressured to be dishonest in monetary matters.
charliehall I agree that college in certain circumstances should become more accepted in the yeshivish world. I know a few people who are not being productive in yeshiva (not showing to seder, pretty much just staring at the walls ) but when I asked them why they dont go to college at least part time they told me that they would love to but their parents would never go along. They were expected to sit in yeshiva until marriage and then go to kollel even though they were totally not suited for it. Even though I was brought up in a very yeshivish environment and kollel was considered a wonderful thing in my house (my father was in kollel for almost ten years) we were never raised that we had to go in one direction. Whenever I would bring up the possibility of going to college my parents would say when you reach that stage we’ll discuss with you what’s right for you. When I decided to go to college my parents supported me completely.
Odd how most discussions here go off-topic. The OP was looking for advice, not a hashkafa debate.
Fabie:
Huh?
The answer to his question was highly debatable in hashkafa.
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Although, my original response, to let them do what they want, is less so.
Really OP, let your kids do what they want. High school graduates are adults.
Did your parents stifle your wishes to become frum? If they did, do you think they were correct in doing so?
“High school graduates are adults.”
But parents are obligated to guide their children regardless of age.
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