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Is it muttar to handle for the purposes of burning?
It is Mutar to Handle even not for burning purposes. Islam is not Avodah Zara and one may even enter a Mosque or Daven in one.
WIY:
The Tziz Eliezer Vol 14 Siman 91 deals with permissibility of visiting a mosque. He quotes the Ran in Sanhedrin (daf 61) who writes “and the crazy one of the Yishmaelim, even though they don’t mistakenly call him a God, since they bow down to him in the manner of bowing to a God, it is to be considered as Avoda Zarah, and all the laws and prohibitions of Avoda Zarah pertain to it. For they don’t bow down out of respect to the dead, rather as in the manner of worshiping a God”. The Tziz Eliezer on the basis of this Ran, concludes that one shouldn’t enter or visit a Mosque.
I believe that burning the Koran is forbidden (Al Pi Torah) due to many reasons.
just a side note:
It’s a very bad idea to follow this “minhag” it conjurs up a feeling of sefarim burning by the same goyim
just think how do you think you would feel if you saw a sefer torah being burnt
It is against the law in most places in the US to start ANY open fire without a permit from the local authorities, who are under no obligation to issue one. This has been an issue with chametz burning erev Pesach and baruch HaShem our leaders have in many areas worked with the local fire departments to have safe local burnings. Do not expect such cooperation if you want to burn somebody’s religious items as a protest.
Furthermore, Gen. Petreaus complained that even the rumors of Koran burning are endangering the lives of American soldiers in Afghanistan who are trying to fight the Muslim fanatics there. And of course, if Korans get burned, sifrei Torah are next; this so-called Pastor Jones is also an anti-Semite who has endorsed the hateful actions of the Westboro Baptist so-called church whose members carry protest signs saying “God Hates Israel” in front of Orthodox synagogues.
Kasha
I dont have sources but not everybody holds this way and I asked a competent posek this shaila and he told me we may enter Mosques.
WIY:
Out of curiosity, what business did you have in a mosque that you asked a posek a shaila if you may enter?
In my humble opinion, dont think its for any Jew to be burning Korans. We dont run this country, we are a minority and we are very likely to be next. So I think its better to keep a low profile and not be front and center in middle of every conflict.
Kasha
I asked because I wanted to know, not that I needed a personal heter to enter one.
What business did he have there? maybe he’s a carpet salesman (pun unintended) or an electricion.
I hope no jews take part in this stupid idea.
Kasha,
The Tzitz Eliezer may be a Daat Yachid on this.
Do you follow the Tzitz Eliezer on his other controversial psaks?
Also, the Ran was not given correct information regarding Muslim practices. No Muslim would ever say they are bowing down to anyone but God.
The Tzitz Eliezer (14:91), who quotes the Ran in Sanhedrin (61b) who says that the worship conducted by Muslims can be characterized as avodah zarah, is NOT a daas yochid. See also the Ritva in Pesachim (25b sv mah rotzeach) who says that while Muslims are not ovdei avodah zarah, Islam is considered avodah zarah for Jews. The Radbaz writes similarly in a responsum (4:1163).
The Rambam said that Islam is not avodah zarah and its adherents are not ovdei avodah zarah. But that pertains to non-Jews, not Jews.
The question was entering a mosque, not practicing Islam.
The question of whether a Jew may enter a mosque is dependent on the question if the practice is considered avoda zora for a Jew.
Kasha,
You confuse two issues: Whether another religion constitutes idolatry, and who is permitted to practice it.
You have continued your practice of cherrypicking your favorite opinion who argues against the overwhelming majority. This is not the way to discuss halachah, at least if one is Orthodox. Rambam clearly said that Islam is not idolatry and criticized those who said that it was. Furthermore the Ran’s statement that Muslims bow down to Mohammed is flat out false. I’m not aware of any important poskim who have agreed with the Tzitz Eliezer on the mosque issue. (If you know any, please cite!) The Tzitz Eliezer is certainly someone who can be followed — and indeed in most areas of medical halachah he is followed in Eretz Yisrael — but don’t criticize those whose rabbis rely on the majority.
CharlieHall,
Again, to determine the issue whether a Jew may enter a mosque (which as you said earlier is the question at hand), it seems to me you must first determine whether Islam is considered avoda zora for a Jew. It is, as I sourced from the Ran, Tzitz Eliezer, Ritva, and Radbaz. And Rambam’s statement regarding it pertains how it applies to NON-JEWS insofar as the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach are concerned in regards to idolatry. It is not only the majority opinion (that Islam is avoda zora to a Jew), but it is lchol hadeios. As far as the question as whether one may enter a mosque, offhand I am not aware of anyone who addressed that specific point other than the Tzitz Eliezer, who said it is assur. Are you aware of any other posek who directly addressed entering a mosque?
I really think the question was burning a Koran and not entering a Mosque…
Kasha,
You continue to ask the wrong question. It is perfectly permissible for a Jew to enter a monotheistic house of worship that isn’t Jewish, even if we may not be permitted to engage in those specific forms of worship. Even the Ran and the Tzitz Eliezer held that way; they were just misinformed regarding Muslim practices.
Regarding published essays, you will find a response by Rabbi Naftali Silberberg on the Lubavich site askmoses.com that specifically states “Entering a mosque does not pose a problem, since Islam is based on a belief in the one-and-only G-d.”
I will second the issue was burning a Koran, which I sure hope noone will do.
I think I may have resolved the issue of the surprising apparent ignorance of the Ran regarding Muslim belief and practice: In another opinion, the Ran holds that Islam is not idolatry and the citation given by Kasha is not by the Ran himself but by a later (presumably less knowledgeable) author. Details are in Prof. Marc Shapiro’s article, “Islam and the halakhah” in *Judaism”, Summer 1993. It is available online.
A quote from the article:
‘What about a Jew entering a mosque? According to the halakhah, a Jew is forbidden to enter a house of idolatry and, therefore, almost all halakhic authorities forbid one from entering a church. Since Islam is not idolatrous, there should be no problem for a Jew to enter a mosque and, although no early halakhists seem to discuss this question, the prevailing opinion of recent halakhic authorities is to be lenient. Similarly, one nineteenth century Ashkenazic authority permitted the conversion of a mosque to a synagogue without the “nullification” of idolatry that is required when converting a church into a synagogue, while another authority even permitted a Jew to assist in the building of a mosque.’
The actual article includes citations. It does not, however, deal with the original question regarding Korans. Hopefully no Jew will consider the silence on the matter to indicate permission; if we allow Koran burnings you can be assured that sifrei torah will be next.
Kasha-
The Rambam’s position was not stated regarding non-Jews. He said it explicitly about Jews, in his Iggeres haSh’mad.
hey yitayningwut, haven’t seen around for a while; welcome back!
Thanx : ) I’m busy in yeshiva so I can’t always be around, but it’s nice to be noticed.
I just received this email. It is lengthy and the last part of it is apropos to this thread. I find the first part of it very thought provoking.
Written in a Spanish newspaper
REMEMBER AS YOU READ — IT WAS IN A SPANISH NEWSPAPER
> Date: Tue. 15 January 2008
>
> ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ
>
> By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez
>
> I walked down the street in Barcelona , and suddenly discovered a terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz …. We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.
>
> The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.
>
> And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.
>
> They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.
>
> Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.
>
> And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.
>
> We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.
>
> What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe .
> ***********************************
>
> A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine America can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.
>
> Absolutely No Profiling! Pause a moment, reflect back, and take the following multiple choice test.
>
> These events are actual events from history. They really happened! Do you remember?
>
> HERE’S THE TEST
>
> 1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by:
> a. Superman
> b. Jay Leno
> c. Harry Potter
> d. A Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
> a. Olga Corbett
> b. Sitting Bull
> c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by:
> a. Lost Norwegians
> b. Elvis
> c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 4. During the 1980’s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
> a. John Dillinger
> b. The King of Sweden
> c. The Boy Scouts
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
> a. A pizza delivery boy
> b. Pee Wee Herman
> c. Geraldo Rivera
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by:
> a. The Smurfs
> b. Davey Jones
> c. The Little Mermaid
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
> a. Captain Kidd
> b. Charles Lindberg
> c. Mother Teresa
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
> a. Scooby Doo
> b. The Tooth Fairy
> c. The Sundance Kid
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
> a. Richard Simmons
> b. Grandma Moses
> c. Michael Jordan
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
> a. Mr. Rogers
> b. Hillary Clinton, to distract attention from Wild Bill’s women problems
> c. The World Wrestling Federation
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by:
> a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
> b. The Supreme Court of Florida
> c. Mr Bean
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
> a. Enron
> b. The Lutheran Church
> c. The NFL
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
> a. Bonnie and Clyde
> b. Captain Kangaroo
> c. Billy Graham
> d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
>
> 14. And now we can add: In 2009, 31 people wounded and 13 American Soldiers murdered on base at Fort Hood by a Major that was known as…
> a: You guessed it – A Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40.
>
> No, I really don’t see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President’s security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling.
>
> Let’s send this to as many people as we can so that the Nancy Pelosis, Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves – if they have any such sense.
>
> We can not allow the socialist transformation being brought on by the current administration to continue. Look at what it has done to Europe . We all must stand together before it’s too late and everything America stands for is lost.
>
>
> The Global Islamic population is approximately
> 1,200,000,000; that is ONE BILLION TWO HUNDRED
> MILLION or 20% of the world’s population.
> They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
> /
> Literature:
> /1988 – Najib Mahfooz
> /
> Peace:
> /1978 – Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
> 1990 – Elias James Corey
> 1994 – Yaser Arafat:
> 1999 – Ahmed Zewai
> /
> Economics:
> /(zero)
>
> /
> Physics:
> /(zero)
> /
> Medicine:
> /1960 – Peter Brian Medawar
> 1998 – Ferid Mourad
>
> TOTAL: 7 SEVEN
>
>
> The Global Jewish population is approximately
> 14,000,000; that is FOURTEEN MILLION or about 0.02%
> of the world’s population.
> They have received the following Nobel Prizes:
> /
> Literature:
> /1910 – Paul Heyse
> 1927 – Henri Bergson
> 1958 – Boris Pasternak
> 1966 – Shmuel Yosef Agnon
> 1966 – Nelly Sachs
> 1976 – Saul Bellow
> 1978 – Isaac Bashevis Si nger
> 1981 – Elias Canetti
> 1987 – Joseph Brodsky
> 1991 – Nadine Gordimer World
> /
> Peace:
> /1911 – Alfred Fried
> 1911 – Tobias Michael Carel Asser
> 1968 – Rene Cassin
> 1973 – Henry Kissinger
> 1978 – Menachem Begin
> 1986 – Elie Wiesel
> 1994 – Shimon Peres
> 1994 – Yitzhak Rabin
> /
> Physics:
> /1905 – Adolph Von Baeyer
> 1906 – Henri Moissan
> 1907 – Albert Abraham Michelson
> 1908 – Gabriel Lippmann
> 1910 – Otto Wallach
> 1915 – Richard Willstaetter
> 1918 – Fritz Haber
> 1921 – Albert Einstein
> 1922 – Niels Bohr
> 1925 – James Franck
> 1925 – Gustav Hertz
> 1943 – Gustav Stern
> 1943 – George Charles de Hevesy
> 1944 – Isidor Issac Rabi
> 1952 – Felix Bloch
> 1954 – Max Born
> 1958 – Igor Tamm
> 1959 – Emilio Segre
> 1960 – Donald A. Glaser
> 1961 – Robert Hofstadter
> 1961 – Melvin Calvin
> 1962 – Lev Davidovich Landau
> 1962 – Max Ferdinand Perutz
> 1965 – Richard Phillips Feynman
> 1965 – Julian Schwinger
> 1969 – Murray Gell-Mann
> 1971 – Dennis Gabor
> 1972 – William Howard Stein
> 1973 – Brian David Josephson
> 1975 – Ben jamin Mottleson
> 1976 – Burton Richter
> 1977 – Ilya Prigogine
> 1978 – Arno Allan Penzias
> 1978 – Peter L Kapitza
> 1979 – Stephen Weinberg
> 1979 – Sheldon Glashow
> 1979 – Herbert Charles Brown
> 1980 – Paul Berg
> 1980 – Walter Gilbert
> 1981 – Roald Hoffmann
> 1982 – Aaron Klug
> 1985 – Albert A. Hauptman
> 1985 – Jerome Karle
> 1986 – Dudley R. Herschbach
> 1988 – Robert Huber
> 1988 – Leon Lederman
> 1988 – Melvin Schwartz
> 1988 – Jack Steinberger
> 1989 – Si dney Altman
> 1990 – Jerome Friedman
> 1992 – Rudolph Marc us
> 1995 – Martin Perl
> 2000 – Alan J. Heeger
> /
> Economics:
> /1970 – Paul Anthony Samuelson
> 1971 – Si mon Kuznets
> 1972 – Kenneth Joseph Arrow
> 1975 – Leonid Kantorovich
> 1976 – Milton Friedman
> 1978 – Herbert A. Si mon
> 1980 – Lawrence Robert Klein
> 1985 – Franco Modigliani
> 1987 – Robert M. Solow
> 1990 – Harry Mark owitz
> 1990 – Merton Miller
> 1992 – Gary Becker
> 1993 – Robert Fogel
> /
> Medicine:
> /1908 – Elie Metchnikoff
> 1908 – Paul Erlich
> 1914 – Robert Barany
> 1922 – Otto Meyerhof
> 1930 – Karl Landsteiner
> 1931 – Otto Warburg
> 1936 – Otto Loewi
> 1944 – Joseph Erlanger
> 1944 – Herb ert Spencer Gasser
> 1945 – Ernst Boris Chain
> 1946 – Hermann Joseph Muller
> 1950 – Tadeus Reichstein
> 1952 – Selman Abraham Waksman
> 1953 – Hans Krebs
> 1953 – Fritz Albert Lipmann
> 1958 – Joshua Lederberg
> 1959 – Arthur Kornberg
> 1964 – Konrad Bloch
> 1965 – Francois Jacob
> 1965 – Andre Lwoff
> 1967 – George Wald
> 1968 – Marshall W. Nirenberg
> 1969 – Salvador Luria
> 1970 – Julius Axelrod
> 1970 – Si r Bernard Katz
> 1972 – Gerald Maurice Edelman
> 1975 – Howard Martin Temin
> 1976 – Baruch S. Blumberg
> 1977 – Roselyn Sussman Yalow
> 1978 – Daniel Nathans
> 1980 – Baruj Ben acerraf
> 1984 – Cesar Milstein
> 1985 – Michael Stuart Brown
> 1985 – Joseph L. Goldstein
> 1986 – Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
> 1988 – Gertrude Elion
> 1989 – Harold Varmus
> 1991 – Erwin Neher
> 1991 – Bert Sakmann
> 1993 – Richard J. Roberts
> 1993 – Phillip Sharp
> 1994 – Alfred Gilman
> 1995 – Edward B. Lewis
> 1996- Lu Rose Iacovino
> TOTAL: 129!
>
>
> The Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children
> in military training camps, teaching them how to
> blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews
> and other non Muslims. The Jews don’t hijack
> planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow
> themselves up in German restaurants.
> There is NOT one single Jew who has destroyed a
> church. There is NOT a single Jew who protests by
> killing people.
>
> The Jews don’t traffic slaves, nor have leaders
> calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
>
> Perhaps the world’s Muslims should consider
> investing more in standard education and less in
> blaming the Jews for all their problems.
>
> Muslims must ask ‘what can they do for humankind’
> before they demand that humankind respects them.
>
> Regardless of your feelings about the crisis
> between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab
> neighbors, even if you believe there is more
> culpability on Israel ‘s part, the following two
> sentences really say it all:
>
> ‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there
> would be no more violence. If the Jews put down
> their weapons today, there would be no more
> Israel ?. /Benjamin Netanyahu
>
> General Eisenhower/ Warned Us
> It is a matter of history that when the Supreme
> Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight
> Eisenhower, found the victims of the death camps he
> ordered all possible photographs to be taken, and
> for the German people from surrounding villages to
> be ushered through the camps and even made to bury
> the dead.
>
> He did this because he said in words to this effect:
>
> ‘Get it all on record now – get the films – get the
> witnesses -because somewhere down the road of
> history some bastard will get up and say that this
> never happened’
>
> Recently, the UK debated whether to remove The
> Holocaust from its school curriculum because it
> ‘offends’ the Muslim population which claims it
> never occurred. It is not removed as yet. However,
> this is a frightening portent of the fear that is
> gripping the world and how easily each country is
> giving into it.
>
> It is now more than 60 years after the Second World
> War in Europe ended.
> This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in
> memory of the, 6 million Jews, 20 million Russians,
> 10 million Christians, and 1,900 Catholic priests
> who were ‘murdered, raped, burned, starved, beaten,
> experimented on and humiliated’ while the German
> people looked the other way.
>
> Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others,
> claiming the Holocaust to be ‘a myth,’ it is
> imperative to make sure the world never forgets.
>
> This e-mail is intended to reach 400 million people.
> Be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute
> this around the world.
>
> How many years will it be before the attack on the
> World Trade Center ‘NEVER HAPPENED’ because it
> offends some Muslim in the United States ?
> And now another slap in the face to America!!
>
> Building a Mosque by Ground Zero, is being allowed by N.Y. City Council is unbelievable!!!!!!!!
>
> This Mosque will be opened on the 10th Anniversary of 9/11. 9/11/2011……..How does this set with you??
>
Minyan gal,
I would not trust the email you copied and pasted. Abdus Salam, a religious Pakistani Muslim, received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979 along with two American Jews (one of whom is an outspoken atheist). Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian Muslim woman, won the 2003 Nobel Peace Prize. (The Mullahs have actively tried to suppress her activity.) Orhan Pamuk, a Turkish Muslim whom I think is not particularly religious, won the 2006 Nobel Prize in Literature. Muhammad Yunus, a citizen of Bangladesh, won the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize. Ahmed Zewail (not Zewai) won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry, not Peace. There may well be other errors and omissions there.
“There is NOT a single Jew who protests by killing people.” is unfortunately a false statement because of Yigal Amir and Baruch Goldstein.
The email blasts Nancy Pelosi unfairly. She has been a tremendous supporter of Israel even though she represents one of the few congressional districts in the US where that loses votes. Her opponent this year is a supporter of the anti-Israel anti-Semite Ron Paul.
And just what grounds would you use to stop the Park51 Center? It is entirely within the bounds of existing zoning laws. We are used to seeing anti-Semites and self-hating Jews trying to stop shuls and yeshivot from expanding and it is precisely the laws that protect shuls and yeshivot that protect the Park51 Center. If the effort to stop it — which is led by an apostate Jew who converted to Christianity named Jay Sekulow — suceeds, it may never be possible to build a new shul anywhere when there is community opposition.
While much of the Muslim world is quite backward in comparison with the west today, that was not the case a thousand years ago. The Muslim world was the world’s center of learning and science then, and had unversities when you could barely find a literate Christian anywhere in Europe who was not a member of some religious order. Anti-intellectualism is not *inherent* to Islam, just to extremist Islam.
Finally, you get a much different picture if you restrict the list of Jewish Nobel Laureates to Orthodox Jews. I can only identify two on the list who identified as Orthodox: Robert Aumann (a graduate of the Rabbi Jacob Joseph Yeshiva!) and Rosalyn Yalow (the email spells her name wrong). I am proud to belong to the synagogue Dr. Yalow attended; the social hall is named for her. Other commenters — please identify any other Orthodox Jews on the list.
Charlie,
I suspect alot of people would much rather accept the da’as yochid of the Tzitz Eliezer than the da’as yochid (baal habos) of Charlie Hall.
I find it especially ironic that you are the one to take issue with what you consider a da’as yochid in light of all your comments and heterim that you post from a da’as yochid or less.
Es chata’ai ani mazkir hayom…
As a fourteen year old (45 years ago) on my first trip/tour to Eretz Yisrael, they took us into a mosgue in the Galil.
Now while i have never been accused of being anything other than a right-wing, fanatic, militant, R’Kahane lover, – nevertheless, while I would like to see all non-Jewish forms of worship OUT of Artzeinu Hakedosha, – I can not tell a lie…
There is NOTHING inside a mosque.
NO statues or avoda zara of any kind.
So… while islam as a religion, may or may not be considered avoda zara, mosques are just a big prayer rooms.
What is less than a daas yochid?
a Yochid with NO daas
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