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July 21, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #592003philosopherMember
I’m interested in hearing what others think of this thought, whether they agree with this or not.
The churban was a culminaton of years of sinning and consequently ongoing weakening of the Jews so the Churban really happened slowly, building up to a crescendo. The culmination of this all lead to the time being ripe for the total Churban but the catalyst that caused the flames to ignite and burst into wildfire and there was no going back was when the Jews killed Zacharia Hanovi or the story with Bar Kamtza.
So the destruction of the Bais Hamikdoshes were not two occurances rather a culmination of hundreds of years of events that lead to each churban.
I think the geulah too, will be a culmination of events that will lead to moshiach’s arrival. In other words the belief that Moshiach can come any day is the idea that any day the process of geulah can start. And I believe, looking at world events that the process of Moshiach’s arrival has started. I don’t want to sound like I have an heretic idea, so maybe someone can explain to me if my idea is wrong or not, but my idea is that Moshiach will not just pop up from one day to the next rather it will be a culmination of events that will lead us to a time that is ripe and there will be one thing that will be the catalyst, the spark and Moshiach will arrive.
July 21, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #694066artchillParticipantYes, it’s a culmination of a number of events.
BUT….
This culminating event of the white donkey and shofar blowing, etc. can happen at any moment now. That is what the ANI MAAMIN means.
July 21, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #694067gavra_at_workParticipantEliyahu will explain how it happened.
Our eyes will be opened and we will understand.
Until then all is cloudy.
(not my vort)
July 21, 2010 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #694068philosopherMemberartchill, It’s not relevent but where is the source that the donkey will be white?
Ani Maamin means that the COMING of Moshiach can happen at any moment. I think the “coming” has started already. But his arrival will be the culmination of a series of events that will lead up to the geulah.
In other words can it happen tommorow? The geulah is already happening! Moshiach is on his way!
In Soteh it says that in the time of the coming of Moshiach:
confrontation will increase – the chutzpah of kids to the parents in our generation was never on this level,
the government will become godless – I don’t see much fear of God in the government
thre will be immorality – no need to explain this
the young will no longer respect their elders – this is also a negative attribute to the parents who will not be worthy of respect
and the elders will have to give in to the young – tell me about it
This still didn’t happen as of yet: a son will rebel against a father a daughter will stand up to her mother.
A man’s family will seem to be his enemies and the entire generation will appear to be going to the dogs…
Moshiach yavoy, Moshiach IS COMING already, he IS on his way. But as for his arrival, I believe that there are still events that need to unfold that will lead to his ARRIVAL.
Maybe I’m extremely wrong. That could very well be. But I’d like to know where it says that my view is not correct and Moshiach’s ARRIVAL can happen today.
July 21, 2010 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #694069YW Moderator-80MemberIn the Islamic religious tradition it is written that before the arrival of the Mahdi, the Dajjal will appear riding a white donkey.
In Mesechta Sanhedrin 98a the color of the donkey that Moshiach will ride is described as multicolored.
July 21, 2010 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #694070YW Moderator-80Memberphilo, i dont have sources for you but i am fairly certain that it is well held that Moshiach can ARRIVE on any day (except Erev Shabbos)
July 21, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #694071philosopherMemberphilo, i dont have sources for you but i am fairly certain that it is well held that Moshiach can ARRIVE on any day
I admit I’m an am haaretzta, and I can be totally wrong, but to my knowledge there is no indication anywhere that Moshiach will arrive at our doorstep from one day to the next. I believe that that’s why the Rambam wrote in the Ani Maamin, the word sheyismamaya , which is present tense “although he tarries” . Why didn’t the Rambam write although he tarried in past tense? I read it ” I believe with perfect faith in the coming of Moshiach, no matter how long he tarries, even so, I hope every day in his coming.
I hope every day in his coming and I don’t see that as a contradiction to my belief that Moshiach will not pop up from one day to the next.
I believe that throughout golus the Jews HAD to believe that Moshiach is coming every day. Imagine if 1940 years ago, when the Bais Hamikdosh was destroyed, the Jews would have thought it will take such a long time for Moshiach to come. They thought they will be able to be independant and build the Bais Hamikdosh even 200 years afterwards! untill Bar Kochba was beaten by the Romans.
So over the hundreds of years onward, especially during the extremely painful times in golus, the Jews would comfort themselves , they’d say “just one day, just one day more and Moshiach is coming”.
I feel there will be tremendous upheaval in America. I’m looking at the fact that there is Muslim tolerance that will one day blow up in our faces. I feel the economy will collapse. America IS in bankrupcty and they will never be able to repay that debt. I believe there will come a time, in the not too distant future where this will become catalyst for upheaval in the world.
And I believe that this major catalyst will be the last contraction in the long labor pains of golus that will lead to Moshiach’s arrival.
July 22, 2010 2:18 am at 2:18 am #694072philosopherMemberWow, wow, wow. What hashgacha protis. I was a little uncomfortable after I sent my last post because although I saw nothing wrong with what I wrote. I was uncomfortable that for so many years Yidden did believe that Moshiach can come from one minute to the next and here comes little me saying otherwise.
But an amazing thing happened. I opened the Yated and glanced through it. Amazingly, in the middle section, in the Halacha Talk column, Rabbi Avrohom Rosenthal wrote about the Third Bais Hamikdosh! And what did he write? His column gave me a clear answer to my sfeikos of whether I’m right or wrong in my assement of Moshiach’s arrival.
To sum up the article, if we are zoche, then Hashem will hasten the geulah before its time. But if we are not zoche then it will only occur “in its time”!!!
So therefore my assement regarding the geulah may be correct. Certainly it is entirely correct to hold that the geulah will come “in its time” according to meforshim. BUT also if we merit, then Hashem will hasten the geulah, so indeed Moshiach can come any moment!
Although judging from the lackadaisical response this thread regarding the geulah has gotten, no wonder I’m a little uncertain if Hashem will hasten the geulah. This topic, as well the topic of the churban, sure didn’t get a lot of people to respond. People seem to be pretty apathetic about the topics of the churban and the rebuilding of the Mikdash.
August 29, 2010 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #694073HaLeiViParticipantFirst off, you are not equating two equal concepts. The two Churbanos did not happen slowly. The Chato’im built up slowly. Definitely the Ge’ula is also a culmination of Zechusim.
Second of all, the Moderator was actually refering to a Gemara in Eiruvin which says that if someone accepts upon himself to be a Nazir on the day Mashiach comes, he may only drink wine on Shabbos because otherwise any other day he might come or in fact have come.
Another point to keep in mind is that the Churban was a natural thing that Hashem allowed and arranged, but the Ge’ula is an unnatural thing. The Maharal explains that when help comes from that level it comes in one shot, because the nature didn’t produce it so it doesn’t need time, which is nature’s way of getting things moving.
The events you refer to are what lead up to make the situation ripe for Mashiach to come. In that sense all of world events in the past were part of that lead up.
There is a Medrash that says that the year that Moshiach will come, the Yidden will be saying, the world is going on as ever before, can it be Moshiach will come this year?
As you read in that article, with our Zechusim we can hopefully speed up the process. But in either case the actual coming is not a natural and slowly gaining process.
If you are able to, you can learn through the Maharal’s Netzach Yisroel, which is a Sefer all about the Ge’ula.
August 31, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #694074Pashuteh YidMemberDisclaimer: I am not a mekubal nor a Rebbeh.
I just saw a Zohar (maybe in Tikkunim) which says that anybody who is mechashev the ketz is foolish, because Hashem never revealed it.
I was very puzzled, because the Zohar itself, elsewhere, does give an exact date (which unfortunately has passed). I forget it now, (although I may have once posted it on YW) but I think it was 5480.
September 1, 2010 4:08 am at 4:08 am #694075HaLeiViParticipantBaba Pashuta Yid, if you are refering to the Zohar Chadash in Balak, there are different Girsaos. Perhaps it wasn’t meant to be really clear there either, especially being that it passed. We might have a Cheshbon but we don’t necessarily know the bumper date. But I’d still rather hear a better Terutz.
On a lighter note:
Perhaps you can’t know when he’ll come because some say that he already came.
September 1, 2010 4:09 am at 4:09 am #694076HaLeiViParticipantPlease post the sources if and when you can.
September 1, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #694077Pashuteh YidMemberHaleivi, the source for the year (which is actually 5408, not 5480 as I posted earlier) is in Zohar Parshas Toldos, Page 30, Os 68 in my edition (Sulam). This is the year of Techiyas Hameisim.
The source for the fact that the time of Moshiach has never been revealed at all, and that it is foolish to try to calculate it is from Medrash Haneelam, Parshas Breishis Page 131, Os 347 in my edition (Sulam).
September 1, 2010 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #694078Pashuteh YidMemberJust searched Wikipedia on Sabbatai Zevi and this is what it says:
“At age 22 in 1648, Sabbatai started declaring to his followers in Smyrna that he was the true Messianic redeemer. In order to prove this claim he started to pronounce the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew, an act which Judaism emphatically prohibited to all but the Jewish high priest in the Temple in Jerusalem on the Day of Atonement. For scholars acquainted with rabbinical, and kabbalistic literature, the act was highly symbolic. He revealed his Messiahship early on to Isaac Silveyra and Moses Pinheiro, the latter a brother-in-law of the Italian rabbi and kabbalist Joseph Ergas.”
Note that the year 1648 is 5408 according to Kaluach v. 3! That may be why he chose to reveal himself that year!
September 1, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #694079Pashuteh YidMemberHaleivi writes:
“On a lighter note:
Perhaps you can’t know when he’ll come because some say that he already came. “
If he comes this year it will be 770.
September 1, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #694080☕️coffee addictParticipantpashuteh yid you know you have a week left.
September 1, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #694081YehudaFMemberIn the Islamic religious tradition it is written that before the arrival of the Mahdi, the Dajjal will appear riding a white donkey.
In Mesechta Sanhedrin 98a the color of the donkey that Moshiach will ride is described as multicolored
I don’t think this is the appropriate forum to be discussing other religions.
September 1, 2010 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #694082YW Moderator-80Memberthis was written in explanation of the source of a common error that people make re the Moshiach. (see artchills post)
a Limud like this is perfectly appropriate, and you will find elucidative comments re other religions in the Gemorrah, Midrashim and all over the Meforshim.
September 1, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #694083rtParticipantthe S’fas Emes holds that Moshiach’s arrival is dependent on mitzvos accumulated by Klal Yisroel, like a bank account, once the total is reached he can come-so, it can be any day. Also, why each individual’s mitzvos are so valuable & important!
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