- This topic has 58 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I’ve been reading a lot of the stories but I haven’t read a single straightforward article on what exactly the controversy is. What is the medinah demanding of the Beis Ya’akov? and why won’t the Beis Ya’akov cooperate? Based on what I have been reading I think I have a basic idea of what’s going on. I must be missing something, because many gedolim are against the medinah on this one (of course, I could be understanding the dispute correctly and just am ignorant in halachah).
If someone can please help me understand the basic facts of the case, that would be very helpful. Tizku leMitzvos!
The Beis Ya’akov in Emmanuel accepts Litvish, Chasidish, Sefard, and Ashkenaz girls. The claims in the zionist media and courts otherwise is a blood libel against the school, the parent body, the teachers, and Gedolei Yisroel shlita.
The Beis Ya’akov in Emmanuel has hashkofic standards, and they do not want their children influenced by people without adhering to those standards. It is standard practice for Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs in Israel, America, and anywhere to set minimum religious standards. Some schools will not take kids with TV’s in their homes; some won’t take kids unless the family dresses btznuah, etc.
A rusha merusha who wanted to force lower standards upon the Beis Yaakov (and who himself doesn’t even live or have children in Emmanuel!) brought a secular court case against the Beis Yaakov (rather than go to Beis Din as halacha would require in any dispute) and made a blood libel against them that they don’t take Sefardim — an outrageous lie when almost half the student body is Sefardic!
The parents pay taxes to the government including taxes that fund schools across the country, and thus are entitled to have their children’s schools be funded. This fact does not abrogate the schools right to maintain their minimum religious standards – including any “chumros” they maintain. Any parent who doesn’t like such a “chumra”, is free to choose another school that has a different religious standard. (No one can send their child to Satmar, Brisk, Mir, Torah V’Daas, Ateret Torah, or any other Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov in Israel, America or anywhere and then demand such Yeshiva or Beis Yaakov drop any “chumras” or religious standards they insist their student and/or parent body maintain.)
The Gedolei Yisroel shlita, including but not limited to Rav Elyashev, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Shteinman, the Slonimer Rebbe, the Gerrer Rebbe, etc. etc. have not only fully supported the Beis Yaakov and the parents, they insist that the parents must go to jail to be moser nefesh to maintain their Torah standards at the school.
Tommorow expect a massive Kiddush Shem Shmayim as tens of thousands of Torah Jews dressed in their Bigdei Shabbos march along these heroic parents starting from Yerushlayim and Bnei Brak to the zionist prison the reshoyim expect to incarcerate them for two weeks. Throughout our long and painful golus of thousands of years we have been repeatedly willing to go to jail to keep our faith and listen to our Gedolim.
There are several religious girls schools in Emmanuel. No one is without a school.
NOTE: For articles about the Emanuel school crisis, click http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=emanuel+atzmai to view the YWN archives, or feel free to use the search box located at the top left of the YWN homepage. While many people have not been paying attention to this story, YWN Israel has been posting dozens and dozens of articles on this topic since the incident started a few months ago.
Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but this thread seems to have a big potential for lashon hara. Please be careful
Good point. All submissions to this thread will be carefully screened prior to approval.
I don’t know much about the story other than that my friend’s brother and his wife are going to jail and it’s really sad.
The Sefardic Chachomin too are against this lie. Today Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita spoke out against those who instigated all this:
[Yoav Lalom and Noar Kahalacha, who instigated the Emmanuel affair]
The parents have the right to send their children to another school if they want, and the court is taking away that right in the name of “Desegregation”. Remember the bus fights in Boston in the 70’s? Just like that does not work to “mix” the classes, this will not work either. Even if the parents are “Racist” (which they seem NOT to be, just following their Rebbe), they are still right.
There is nothing here to desegregate or racist. The Emannuel school in question, despite all the media lies, ARE fully integrated with a strong Sefard and Ashkenaz student body. Some of the parents going to jail today are Sefardim!
When the government stops collecting taxes from Chareidim, Chareidim will stop taking government money. As long as Chareidim pay taxes, they are entitled to receive educational money.
And this does not aborogate their rights to educate their children with the religious values they have, rather than the secular (anti-Torah) government’s will.
When the government stops collecting taxes from Chareidim, Chareidim will stop taking government money.
Taxes cover a lot more than education. Don’t Chareidim use the roads, utilities, defense, police and fire as well?
Feel free to make the education arguments, but to say they shouldn’t pay any taxes is way off line.
Or am I misunderstanding your statement or the tax realities of Israel?
The Wolf
Wasn’t Communism all about equality?
Well the Israeli gov is very concerned about equality so they are acting in like a Communist government would.
Wolf: I was responding to the point that the Chareidim need to suck up to all the government’s educational edicts — including against their religious practices — as a result of the Chareidim receiving educational funds. My point was the Chareidim pay taxes that cover all citizens educational schooling, so they are entitled to receive the same educational funds as the non-religious. And that fact does not give license to the government to muck around and stick their noses into the Yeshivos and order them to change their religious practices.
And that fact does not give license to the government to muck around and stick their noses into the Yeshivos and order them to change their religious practices.
Well, that’s something that I don’t know about. In the US, of course, such an attitude wouldn’t fly — you take the government’s money, you play by their rules (and, of course, there are even some rules you have to play by regardless of whether you don’t take the government’s money or not).
I don’t know the legal intricacies (do you?) of what rights the government in Israel has to dictate education policy for schools that they fund. It may be as you say (that they have no rights at all), but I would be highly surprised to find that that’s actually the case in law.
The Wolf
I don’t know what the law is, but I do know what the law should be. And that is what I described. (Perhaps the law is that way, and the government is disregarding it nevertheless.) Even if the law isn’t as it should be, you can be 100% certain that there will be civil disobedience (as is the right in that purported democracy) by the Chareidim against the government’s evil decrees.
And if that means going to prison to uphold our inalienable right to practice the Torah as our Gedolei Yisroel advise us to… well you saw what happened today in Eretz Yisroel.
I don’t know what the law is, but I do know what the law should be. And that is what I described.
That’s a separate issue. If you think the law is wrong, by all means, try and have it changed. But until then, the law is the law.
Even if the law isn’t as it should be, you can be 100% certain that there will be civil disobedience (as is the right in that purported democracy) by the Chareidim against the government’s evil decrees.
Fair enough. But an integral part of civil disobedience must include the willingness to pay the price for breaking the law (which, as you pointed out, seems is happening today).
The Wolf
Actually the school is a chinuch atzmai school. Chinuch Atzmai is partially funded by the gov. not fully as a compromise that they should be allowed to run the schools how they wish and so that their schools are not public schools which have to accept anyone who applies.
Also it’s not an issue of the gov funding. these parents took their girls out of the school and sent them to bnei brak but the court is forcing them to go back to their original school.
We should have the right to practice Torah as the Gedolim see fit. However, when you take gov’t funding you are asking for trouble. ESPECIALLY from the secular state of Israel who is KNOWN to be anti Torah.. how dumb can you be ?
The people of Emanuel should have just made many PRIVATE apartments into classrooms and only taken PRIVATE funding..
Would the state have gotten involved if that were so?
frumimaof3, That’s why many mosdos (i.e. Brisk, Satmar, Toldos Ahron, and others) refuse to take a cent in Israeli government funding, even though they are legally entitled to it. There are different shittos on this issue.
simcha613, taxpayer money goes to religious educational institutions in other countries as well. I know Canada is one, and I believe in most if not all of Europe as well. The ones that don’t (and even the U.S. provides a limited amount of free educational assistance to students in religious schools) are wrong. (Although that itself is a whole ‘nother topic.) The Torah world has been growing in Eretz Yisroel since the late 1800’s — before the arrival of the zionists. The medina has done just about everything in their imagination to impede Torah progress and Torah adherents. What we have accomplished in Eretz Yisroel is no credit to them. We’ve done so in spite of their impediments.
But as you said, this is a whole ‘nother topic.
But you see, that there aren’t these types of troubles don’t happen to them,right?
The Chareidi school in Emmanual is 31% Sefardi, the Supreme Court of Israel is historically only 6% Sefardi.
Who are the racists???
The Chareidi school in Emmanual is 31% Sefardi, the Supreme Court of Israel is historically only 6% Sefardi.
Who are the racists???
Yes, they are total hypocrits just like the Communists were suposedly for “equality” while they created an elite class.
This has nothing to do about discrimination against Sephardim as there are the Sephardim are not being discriminated against, rather those who are tying to put their kids into the school are not up to par on the religious level as the rest of the student body.
But how exactly is the Israeli gov acting in a democratic fashion when it feels it can imprison parents for making their decision to take out their children and placing them in different schools. And it doesn’t matter what the reason the parents have for doing that. It’s none of the Israeli gov.’s business.
I must comment on the beauty of the massive public support for those being imprisoned. It’s really touching and brought me to tears. In this case it was a real kiddush Hashem the way it was done.
Look at the parent’s that were ripped away from their families by the criminal medina. The jailed parents themselves are a mix of Ahskenazim, Sefardim, and Chasidim! It puts to lie the blood libel made by those thugs in the supreme zionist kangaroo court.
Can someone please tell me what happens to all the poor children when both parents go to jail for such a long time? and what happens at the end of their sentence? I also cannot understand how if you take government money you can expect not to have the govt control the standards of the school. seems like such a simple solution. Dont they have “private” chareidi schools in Israel>? Raise money. start a school, problem solved… simple am I missing something? Instead of all those chareidim standing out chalshing in the heat today, couldnt they all just donate one dollar to the private school and they would have already had 100,000.00!!
I think Zionism is the one area I’m condused about. On one hand, if there is no Zionist gov. as of today could you imagine what the Arabs would c”v do to our brothers and sisters living in Israel.
On the other hand, the Israeli gov. is a zoo, all the politician’s are busy about is devouring each other to advance their careers and they have a consistant anti-religious agenda.
I heard a shuir on tape from Rabbi Avigdor Miller zt’l and at the end where there’s a question-answer session, someone asked Rabbi Miller what he says about Zionism and he clearly answered he doesn’t know, he can’t answer that question.
I wonder if anyone has an opinion, other than outright an anti-Zionist one, regarding the this issue.
You must’ve heard that completely out of context. The following are some excerpts of what Rav Avigdor Miller wrote in his Seforim:
From: SING, YOU RIGHTEOUS
46. Question: Does not Zionism, or the State of Israel, present ideology which could preserve the Jewish identity?
Answer: Even if it did, this would be a purely artificial ideology and could not appeal to a rational and truth-seeking mind. What right do atheists (i.e. Zionists) have to claim a land, unless by force of arms? It is not an ideology but an organization, and it cannot logically demand allegiance. There is no reason, according to such an artificial ideology why Jews should not lose themselves among the gentiles by assimilation and that’s why a number of Zionist leaders took gentile wives. It is logical result of this lack of rational foundation that so many of the Israeli-born youth leave the country and are lost among the nations. The State of Israel presents the greatest peril to Jewish existence in history.
47. Question: How is that possible?
Answer: Never before were Jews under the influence of such a powerful group of Jewish atheists. The Yevesekzia (Jewish communists) in Russia combated Judaism and urged assimilation, and they ruined millions of souls. But the leaders of the State of Israel speak Hebrew and proclaim themselves the true Jews, and they declare that no belief in G-d and in a Torah is necessary to be a genuine Jew.
From: AWAKE MY GLORY (CHAPTER: THE LEADERS OF ISRAEL)
In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.
At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.
769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths.
Kasha, it is an undeniable fact that all those E.Y. kollel people would not be able to stay in kollel, if not for the government money.
Did you ever wonder why in Europe 150 years ago so few people were in kollel in contrast to modern-day Israel? Because the Russian Czar and the Austrian Kaiser would not pay for it. The Israeli government does.
The Kollel population is a small percentage of the Chareidi public. They are as entitled to funding as the secular are entitled to university funding.
When the state stops taxing the Chareidim they can discriminate against them by only funding secular education and not Torah education. In the meanwhile, it is the Chareidim’s Torah learning that is keeping Eretz Yisroel safe.
Kasha, you seem to be a sincere fellow, but here are some simple facts about E.Y.:
Most Chareidim do not work, but rather stay in kollel for life. They and their families are supported by the Zionist government, and do not pay taxes.
That’s simply hogwash. Most Chareidm do work, do pay taxes, and don’t stay in kollel.
And to top it off, many Chareidim refuse to take Zionist government funding for their Torah and educational institutions — even though they are entitled to it!
The biggest hakoros tov DOES come from the Chareidim. That hakoros hatov, is the Chareidim’s Limud Torah, which keeps Eretz Yisroel safe for the religious and secular alike.
It is the secular’s who should be showering the Chareidim with hakoros hatov for the Torah they learn that keeps them safe.
Yes, it would be wonderful if the seculars said thank you to the Chareidim for all the Torah they learn in Eretz Yisroel.
Kasha, as who works and pays taxes in E.Y. goes, just do some research.
The Chareidim are entitled to the funding? According to what? — according to the laws of the evil Zionists.
Yes, I’ve done it. That the majority of Chareidim in Eretz Yisroel do work and pay income or VAT taxes, not like the slander that one could fall for by accepting the blood libels spread about Chareidim in the zionist media.
And I’ve enumerated in multiple comments above why they are entitled to the funding. And entitled to it without the state infringing on their religious liberties, including in their educational facilities. Read my various comments above addressing this point in detail.
that is all besides the fact that most charedim have at least one spouse working and paying taxes. i think the 16% tax we pay is more than enough to not feel guilty about any money which people get back from the government. we are paying about double what you pay in America so it makes sense that we should be getting more from the governmnet.
If there were Malchus Beis Dovid in E.Y., would it have to support financially anyone who declares that he wants to be in kollel? The Halacha is — no. Just for for the start, look in Shulchan Aruch, Y.D., Hilchos Talmud Torah (246:21) and in the Nossei Keilim.
Rambam says that Kollel is for anyone who WANTS the honor of learning in Kollel (Shevet Levi). Also see YD Hilchos Talmud Torah 246:21 and Shach ad loc.
But this is a fig leaf. Only a small minority of Chareidi Yidden in E.Y. are in Kollel. Where are the complaints that they should stop supporting the seculars university education? Roman literature and Humanities yes, and Torah no?
Kasha, there are limits to what kind of grants you can get for secular education. Welfare grants are unlimited.
However, as citizens they are entitled, so long as they follow the law. I personally think their protest must be valid because the protests were peaceful.
It seems from what I read though that they are trying to exclude sefardi families who are charedi.
I’m not taking sides.
“It seems from what I read though that they are trying to exclude sefardi families who are charedi.”
That is a blood libel by the court and media. There isn’t a shred of truth to it. Not only is the admission policy exclusively based on religious observance and not ethnic background, and the student body is mixed with Ashkenaz, Sefard, and Chasidic students, but Sefardic fathers of children in the Emmanuel Bais Yaakov were sent to prison yesterday!
Kasha,
From what I’ve read (supposedly quoting statements from parents whos kids were excluded) was that they were willing to do everything the stricter school wanted, and the school didn’t want them.
Truth be told, Israeli Charedi is a foriegn concept to me. I know its vastly different than American Charedi and American Charedim are often not accepted by the Israeli Charedi communities. So maybe this is just Israeli culture.
I don’t assume any media outlet is unbiased.
What kasha said is absolutely true.
30% of the families that are on the frummer track, and do not want the other students to be admitted, are Sephardi.
There is much distortion and misinformation by much of the media, as is always the case.
Kasha. A) The Rambam does not say that the government has to support it. On the contrary, he is the big mahmir in this field. B) Just ask anyone — most Chareidi men are in full-time kollel.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.