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Quote from Maran Rashkbhag Hagaon HaRav Moshe Feinstein ?????????:
“There are people who maintain that Talmidei Chachomim are not qualified to decide political matters, that Gedolei Yisroel should limit themselves to Torah and Halacha. Such people cannot be considered within the Torah camp. One might well say ignoring the advice of a Talmid Chochom is far worse than violating a commandment. One who violates a commandment because he is too weak to resist temptation, at least knows that his action is wrong. By contrast, one who ignores the advice of a Talmid Chochom denies that a Torah scholar’s wisdom is superior. This is a far more serious breach.”
(Reb Moshe, p. 123)
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Igros Moshe, Even HaEzer 2:1
“My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies.”
Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l disagreed with his cousin Rav Moshe z’tz’l on both these issues.
Rashkbhag
Please forgive the ignorance, but what does the above stand for?
The Wolf
Rabban Shel Kol Bnei Hagolah
Thank you ShlomoZalman.
Trying,
Was there some point you were trying to make, or were you just in the mood to throw out a quote?
The Wolf
Wolf,
Do you really not know the point he was trying to make, or do you merely wish him to state it as a defined prelude for debate?
My Rosh Yeshiva once told me that this thought is becoming a big problem nowadays. Gedolim used to know when to comment, and when to stay out of politics. That was why we needed to listen to them. They didn’t get involved often, so when they did, it was for a good reason.
Nowadays, the younger generation of Rabbis thinks it’s part of the job of being a Rabbi to get involved in such things. They don’t know enough about the issues to really make judgment calls, but they feel they have to.
Do you really not know the point he was trying to make, or do you merely wish him to state it as a defined prelude for debate?
The latter. Is it unreasonable to ascertain what his/her intentions were before launching into a debate and then running into “I didn’t mean that, I was just putting up a quote…?”
The Wolf
Quite reasonable.
Trying,
Let me ask you this question then. Do you think Reb Moshe was talking *only* about politics, or do you think he meant in any field of life?
The Wolf
According to Charlie (I would love to see him point out where), Rav Soloveitchik, who was a gadol, disagreed.
This is something I struggle with, especially when it comes to limiting freedoms. Is it fair that I (as a minority – be it Jewish or female) ask for rights and then refuse them to others? I specifically have issues with this relating to toeva. I don’t agree with condoning it, but I would have trouble voting against it. I also understand why a Rabbi has to come out against it.
Technically though, if the shul is a non-profit, they are NOT allowed to tell you to vote one way or another otherwise they risk losing their non-profit status.
Tmb, my Rosh Yeshiva is a well-known, respected Rosh Yeshiva. Believe me, he knows very well what R’ Moshe said.
Clearly politics is an example.
So, is it your contention that one must consult with a gadol before any decision in life? And if not, then how do you distinguish what requires a gadol’s “wisdom and advice” and what does not?
The Wolf
(Of course, this is putting aside the fact that Reb Moshe’s statement almost amounts to a tautology.
The Wolf)
Where have I made a contention? I quoted Rav Moshe’s contention.
Fine. So you think it was Reb Moshe’s contention that one must consult with a gadol before any decision in life? And if not, then how does one distinguish what requires a gadol’s “wisdom and advice” and what does not?
The Wolf
Where have I made a contention? I quoted Rav Moshe’s contention.
(Mind you, this is the *very* thing I was trying to avoid and, of course, in my complete and utter stupidity, I allowed it to happen anyway. I never learn…)
The Wolf
Common sense.
Elaborate please. What do you mean by “common sense.”
The Wolf
LOL Wolf.
My common sense tells me “my vote, my choice.” I can ask my Rav for an eitzah, but why would I ask him for psak?
ROTFL! If common sense needs elaboration…
Well, I’m asking for it.
Do you mean to that I can use my common sense when deciding what needs a gadol’s psak or not?
Do you mean that it’s common sense that everything needs a gadol’s psak?
Do you mean that it’s common sense that a gadol isn’t all-knowing and that I should only consult them in their field of expertise?
What do you mean by “common sense?” Instead of laughing at me, how about answering the question.
The Wolf
Well TMB, do you agree with my definition?
Thanks for the clarification.
So, that also means that I don’t *have to* go to a gadol for anything outside of a halachic nature either, correct?
The Wolf
That is situational dependent.
Then I return you to my previous question. How is one to know the difference?
The Wolf
So, if my common sense tells me that I don’t have to ask a gadol whom to vote for, then I don’t have to, correct?
If not, then please define how “common sense” is to be utilized since different people have different perceptions of “common sense.”
The Wolf
Where to live is.
I have to ask a gadol before I buy a house? (Assuming, of course, I intend to live in it and it’s not for investment.)
The Wolf
Do you think that statement can be made simply on the grounds of D”T, and if so, how is that possible?
WolfishMusings: *Where* to live, I meant as in neighborhood or city, etc.
Right. So, I bought a house in a neighborhood in Brooklyn. Was I required to ask a gadol before I did that?
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: I think it is common sense that you should ask an Adom Gadol is such and such neighborhood (or city) is appropriate for your family.
Ah, well, but see, “common sense,” as I pointed out, means different things to different people.
I guess, according to your interpretation of Reb Moshe, I can no longer “be considered within the Torah camp.” But you know what? I’m willing to bet that the majority of people whom we would consider “yeshivish” failed to ask a gadol before purchasing a house as well. So, I guess there’s lots of us who are “outside the Torah camp.”
The Wolf
I simply used that issue as a clear example. I am not particularly interested in an answer that specifically addresses that example – how about in general.
Can we assume all are agreed that the scope of the statement about D”T is limited to the ability of Torah scholars to offer sage and sound advice only, and not that they possess the ability to divine and identify the underlying causes and nature of the tevva?
If they are moving within the same general area, I’m not sure how necessary it is to ask if I should move from Avenue R to Avenue S.
I understood that from your statement. However, I, like many other people, moved from one neighborhood to another. As such, are we “out of the Torah camp?”
The Wolf
I was trying to establish some common ground as to the limits on both ends of that statement. I can agree with you that the advice I receive from a gadol in areas where others might use “common sense” to decide is both more sound than common sense and is binding on the advice seeker. I had hoped that you might agree to my statement that advice in areas that require divination can be no more than advice, and then we could discuss middle ground. But alas, it seems that you refuse to impose an upper bound.
TMB, actually, if you think you should ask a gadol about a move, it should be about any move because “meshana makom, meshana mazal.” At least be consistent.
and not that they possess the ability to divine and identify the underlying causes and nature of the tevva?
i certainly wouldnt agree with that. nor would the Chovos HaLevavos who states that they see without eyes and hear without ears, and many other descriptions of those who have achieved a certain Purity and Kedusha who can “see from one end of the earth to the other” in many Mussar Seforim (referring to those Talmedei Chochomim of earlier generations at least, but not just to Neveim)
not that your and my little minds have any idea what that really means
not that your and my little minds have any idea what that really means
Certainly mine does not. Please define “they” in modern day terms. Please direct me to a gadol who claims to see without eyes and hear without ears.
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