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It seems to me that it is common that when someone brings up an intellectual discussion about a halacha that just happens to be a halacha people have a hard time following properly, many intelligent people start blurting out things like “maybe you should work on yourself first” or “not talking lashon hara is more important”. Why can’t people just discuss the halacha without getting so defensive?
Great point.
Because for the most part, threads do not discuss “halacha” in its black and white form. What we pick apart is the interpretation of halacha, or minhag (which we mistake for halacha).
As you may or may not know BP has an eruv war (Not going to say which side I’m on), with each side having serious moreh horoahs backing the pro and con team. Who is right? Depends on how you interpret the halacha. Team Pro will “prove” that the eruv is A-OK; Team Con will “prove” their position with just as much conviction. And believe me when I tell you, both sides have Rabbonim with real credentials.
So.. who is right? That’s a personal choice of which Rov you follow. And once we start to get personal, the fur starts flying!
I picked the eruv, but the same applies to every “hot button” topic, like the tznius thread that was running strong earlier today
BP Totty: Your point is well made, yet doesn’t answer the OP’s stated concern.
the OP?
many intelligent people start blurting out things like “maybe you should work on yourself first” or “not talking lashon hara is more important”. Why can’t people just discuss the halacha without getting so defensive?
There could be any number of reasons:
1. It’s possible that they *are* taking it personally.
2. It’s possible that the person does not have good debate skills and does not realize that a deflection/ad hominem attack is not a valid response to an argument.
3. It’s possible that some people perceive the person making the argument as “holier-than-thou” (whether justified or not) and respond accordingly.
4. It’s possible that some people just post without thinking.
Or any combination of the above or other factors that I might have missed.
The Wolf
BP Totty: Opening Post (i.e. yitayningwut)
Oh, now I get it. Still, I think my post does answer the question in a way. Let me restate:
I think the “defense mechanism” (work on yourself, ect) gets brought up, its because I really cannot argue with you on “halacha” per se, as “halach” has very clearly defined terms. Lets use matzoh as an example. No one in the world will say that a matzoh baked in 19 minutes is kosher. But lots of people will say that cholov stam is ok. Is that halacha? I can “prove” my position as decisivly as you can yours.
Same with the tznius thread. “Halacha” says sleeves below the elbow and you are good to go. But take a walk down the avenue (makes no diffence which one) and this is what you’ll see:
Below the elbow shell, under a scoop neck t-shirt, that I cannot describe in a yeshivaworld post. Is that tznius? You decide. Is that halacha? I would have to say yes, as its below the elbow. But is it tznius? You decide. Till then, we resort to name calling… because the “halacha” is too hard to define, and even harder to inforce.
My kids school does not have a printed dress code. They have an honor code. If you want to be here, please be a part of the team. If you don’t want to be a part of the team, why are you here?
This way, the “halacha” is self enforced. On the outside world, each of us have our own standard, and our own version of interpretation. If my take is different than yours, put up your dukes and lets fight it out!
OK, maybe that’s too dramatic. But you get the idea. If its cut and dry (like a 19 minute matzoh) there is nothing to argue about. But the variables? I could go on for days.
On the topic of sharing psak halacha / what their rav holds –
This gets a bit problematic, as there tends to be an attitude of “if I google it, I’m sure to find a heter”.
That’s a problem, because it undermines the concept of hadracha, and that is what keeps us the Am Hanivchar. True, Sfardim eat corn on Pesach, and YI folks daven at 48 minutes after shkyia, and to some extent, whether I do A or B, I’m still within the confines of halacha. But boy, am I getting onto a slippery slope, one that is sure to have bad consequences for me and my families religous future.
Opinions are nice to argue on things like politics or sports (which I know zero about either). But halacha? OK, I’ll leave it at this: we can “argue” halacha, but in the end, there can be no winner or loser, because I’m still bound to my hadracha, and you’re still bound to yours.
Fair?
I do not think not saying Loshon Hara is more important then some other things, is any kind of “personal attack” on anyone.
I think it is discussing the issue in many cases.
Most threads where not following a certain halacha (whatever halacha is brought up in each particualr thread) , is brought up
the underlying problem is that it brings down the level of Yiddishkeit in any community where it happens.
Loshon Hara will do that, far faster and more insidiously, then just about anything else.
Lets say for example; Someone is talking about achdus and why there may not be as much of it as there should.
One of the biggest and most obvious reasons is because of Loshion Hara.
And the effects of it get very personal, if someone loses a job or shidduch from it, of course it’s extremly personal.
But bringing it up is not necessarily “an attack” on anyone.
It is just brought up as part of the discussion.
yitayningwut: work on yourself first! j/k
good point though
You know when there will be real achdus Yisroel? When every single frum Jew respects and embraces the differences among us and realizes that we are all eventually arriving at the same destination, even when we travel by different roads.
You know when there will be real achdus Yisroel? When every single frum Jew respects and embraces the differences among us and realizes that we are all eventually arriving at the same destination, even when we travel by different roads.
That will never happen because the way we differentiate ourselves (among the frum) is by what we do that is better than other groups.
I love a good debate. And I don’t lack debate skills.
I don’t like tznius threads here because it seems like every other word out of everyones mouths nowadays is “tznius” and “women aren’t following tznius” and “womens tznius issues are causing all our problems”
I prefer to keep the tznius debates to the womens only forums that I am part of. It sort of feels wrong to me for men and women without halachic reason (such as a rav or someone learning halachos together) to be debating these things. For all the talk of keeping things tznius, doesn’t this lead men to think more about erva and shok than they should be?
EDITED
Talking about the halachas and concepts of tznius doesn’t cause anymore impropriety thinking of erva than if a man were to learn these in the Torah or halacha seforim (Shulchan Aruch, Mishna Berura, and many more) that are very specific in discussing these things, and were written for men and mostly learnt by men.
Trying, but that’s in the beis medrash with a specific purpose. That doesn’t seem to be the point in the tznius threads I’ve seen on YWN.
One difference between learning the halochos of tznius in the beis medrash and discussing them here is that here many of the posters are (or purport to be) women. I’m not a man, so I don’t know what, if any, effect this may have on men discussing the issue.
I do know that concerns were raised on this board regarding a specific discussion between a (self-identified) man and (self-identified) woman on this board. That particular discussion began in a tznius thread.
I do agree SJS’s post, which really made the same point.
anon for this: Your concern expressed can apply to any discussion here between the genders.
TMB, there are certain topics that are better left between the affected genders.
Do you think it would be strange if women and men were having a detailed discussion about zera livatala? I’m not talking about a tachlis discussion with a rav, a man and his wife. I’m talking about a thread on YWN.
SJSinNYC: Arguably all topics are better left between each gender separately.
Yitayn, zera livatala has the potential to create lots of shalom bayis issues. I obviously won’t extrapolate here.
Besides, you could argue that women talking to men about it might increase awareness to the struggles of men and make them WANT to be more tzanua.
I don’t know. I think there are some conversations that shouldn’t be discussed.
Trying my best,
Any discussion on an internet message board between men and women can (and has) become too personal. On this board, however, the moderators take great care to steer discussions away from topics that they consider inappropriate for men and women to discuss. Since personal details/ discussions are not an intrinsic part of most topics discussed, this is an achievable goal. Of course sometimes moderators edit/ delete posts or close topics to accomplish keep personal details/ discussions off the board. And many topics that would be completely accepted on other message boards are not posted here for this reason (either because nobody posts them in the first place or the mods don’t let those topics on).
To properly discuss many aspects of tznius, one must discuss personal details that in most other contexts would perhaps not be discussed on this board, expecially between men and women. Whether it is appropriate to discuss these details in the context of a thread about tznius is a matter of opinion and of course for the mods to decide.
I thought about this during Chag and I thought of another thing.
Growing up, tznius is really shoved down girls throats (and I do mean that almost literally). Have a spare moment? Lets talk tznius. Mussar time? Almost exclusively tznius. Teacher allows an off topic day? Steers conversation towards tznius.
I think to a certain degree people stop listening when its just too often. There’s a saturation point where its INEFFECTIVE. I think this has only gotten worse since I’ve left school (after discussing this with my older neices). I think schools are overdoing it and concentrating too harshly on tznius. Perhaps if they stepped back a bit, girls might want to do more.
Why is it that those who engage in it (even if its only one or two who do it), never get tired of gossip, but when it comes to things like Tznius, everyone gets tired of it?
I suspect that one problem is that many of us don’t learn well enough. For example, there are a variety of halachic opinions regarding eruvim and tzniut, just to mention the two areas mentioned in this discussion, and much of the latter is situational rather than objective. Yet many of us only learn the opinion of our own teacher, or our teacher’s teacher, and much later are stunned to find that many of great stature disagree with that opinion.
Hereorthere, the gossip you are discussing changes. The tznius doesn’t change much.
Charlie, that’s a very good point. When I was in elementary school, I had a teacher that really stressed that long skirts were absolutely under no circumstance tzanua. She refused to allow the thought that there were other shittas on this. She made us all feel so guilty about wearing long skirts, that I took to wearing short skirts (AKA above my knees) because she never stressed that and I felt less guilty (I didn’t wear short skirts for that long). It wasn’t until after 4 years of a good high school that I truly understand the full error of her ways and the guilt over long skirts (which my rav holds is 100% muttar) started to erode.
The morning davening does not change much, not even from Nusach to another.
People do not say “I’m tired of the same Shma and the same Shmona Eseray, every day”.
SJS –
The differnce between the tznius issue and the example you picked (which, by the way, is most unbecoming of a CR member) is that tznuis, may be a private issue, but it is largly practiced in public, so I do have the right to my opinion as your choices have a direct impact on me / my family.
The example you chose is presumably done in private and really is not open for discussion.
But, really, that’s the example you use to illustrate a point? Got news for you.. its not just married folks here in the CR. Please reconsider next time.
BP Totty, I picked that example because while it is technically a men’s issue, it does ultimately affect women. Its an issue that affects boys from around Bar Mitzvah and upwards. It doesn’t start nor end with marriage, but does affect marriages. So it may not be as “visible” but it still impacts many, many people. I just thought this was an example that men would connect to.
Ultimate the “its practiced in public” line is one I hate. I’m not accusing you of this, but I think society has denegrated itself towards “what not nice we don’t show” but still allows the “whats not nice” – meaning things like tax fraud/evasion and the like. Just because you don’t see it directly doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect you.
You are right, that is an issue which ultimatly affects women as well. But that does not mean men and women (outside of husband and wife) need to discuss it. Truth is, I find it somewhat strange that Rabbonim should be the ones to discuss the particlars of tznius with women and girls. It should either come from a rebbetzin, or if it needs to be said by a rov, it should be directed to the father / husband and have them relay it to the women in thier lives.
Some topics simply do not cross the gender lines in our community. I can voice my opinion, but to engage another women in a debate of what should and should not be exposed in the street? That’s out of bounds in my book.
As for tax-evasion (or tuition evasion) that’s a pretty neutral topic, so I’m ok with that in a public setting. Tznius is a toss-up. But? (sorry, I can’t even bring myself to spell it out), that is off the charts.
I think if you think a conversation about a woman’s erva can be discussed cross gender, the topic I mentioned (I don’t understand why you won’t say it, do you avoid saying avodah zara?) should be fair game as well.
Although I agree its better left between the same gender. Although I do think its appropriate for a Rabbi to teach as well.
IMHO, the topic of tznius really should not be discussed between folks of the opposite gender that are not close family (although at times, the CR sure seems like one!)But if it come down to it, I’m a little more at ease in discussing tznuis issues with another woman, as it really is a public domain issue. once its outdoors, its public. Perhaps not the most rightous discussion for me to be having, but that’s life in the 21st century
However, if you equate avodah zara (see, no probelm with that) and the topic you mentoined (no, I still won’t spell it out) than either I’ve been in BP too long, or you’ve beenin NNJ too long.
Either way, to get back on topic, the real reason we seem to go off the deep end on issues like this is because its less about halachah and more about personal choice in how to apply halachah. And once it gets personal, it gets heated.
SJS,
You bring up an interesting point regarding skirt length. In my MO community the skirts are generally much longer than in the charedi communities I’ve visited. With skirts reaching to the ankle — or longer — knees are never seen.
mt mehdi – off topic, but why did you choose to call yourself by that user name? I was present at Queens College when Dr.M T Mehdi spoke viciously against the State of Israel and the Zionists. He deliberately sought to incite a riot, and he knew that the Jewish college students who were present would be getting all their buttons pushed with each word that spewed from his toxic mouth. It just seems to be a little inappropriate, like calling yourself Louis Farrakhan.(I don’t mean to insult you, I am just curious about this odd choice).
A comment to the original post: The Brisker Rov Zatzal used to say “I never criticize people I only criticize actions” so it’s like you said, the issues raised are not meant (or should not be meant) to criticize anyone either personally or as a group, and therefore are not “loshon horah on klal yisroel” or on anyone for that matter, and don’t even go into the discussion of don lekaf zechus because we are not discussing those who do it rather the issue itself.
Thus there is no reason for anyone to get offended either.
The problem is not just on message boards but also in person too. People are sometimes disrespectful to each other because they become emotional and passionate about the topic.
However, we’re not very persuasive when overheated. We just sound like a pushover. The best way for people to get their point across is to Talk Calmly. Takes discipline but is more effective.
While sometimes people need advice, there are many who are fine and following halacha. We might not agree with them, but we can still try to get along.
What we should do is not look at the outside but the inside and see the specialness that’s in every Jew
What concerns me is how the BT feels. They come so inspired by Judaism and then find people arguing etc. We need to be a GOOD EXAMPLE for them and help them continue being inspired. Example is a much stronger teacher than words. When people see people acting nicely, enjoying Shabbos, being tznius, they’re inspired to also.
lets be very honest. most of us want to be happy with ourselves. and since no one can prove that “his” issue is the what that has much significance the typicsl response is defensiveness. “why cant you stop talking during davening?”response its more important to be honest in business.(in other words myob) whether the response is true has no bearing on whether the first issue should be addressed. this is why we have so many problems beacause unfortunately rather than all of us trying to be better where we can we throw out the good old cliche of dont be so critical” the modern day version of political correctness that does not allow for the raising of legitimate concerns for fear that someone will be offended
political correctness is just an excuse for people to brush off their flaws. as for the first post. why do people get defensive? because they dont want to change. they dont want to admit that they are wrong. people like laboring under the delusion that they are perfect and that everyone else around them is flawed. therefore when someone tries giving them mussar, and tries to make them realize that they are flawed just the same, they feel the need to drag someone else down with them. misery likes company.
of course, the argument that “you are flawed so dont talk about me” is completely invalid. one person’s flaws has no bearing on another’s. suppose i am a mechallel chabbos, but i never speak ill of another, and you are a medakdek in hilchos shabbos, but you run your mouth like a fire hose, i am fully qualified to give you mussar. true, i have things i have to change, but that does not change the fact that you do as well.
when debating with someone, and many times mussar turns into a debate, you are supposed to be dispassionate, and removed from th eargument. the argument is supposed to be completely abstract. specifics, and nitpicks only get in the way of the focus, and purpose of the debate. personal attacks hinder the true reason for the debate, and this is very counter-productive. none of us are perfect. everyone has to realize that, and the sooner people do, the sooner people become aware of their own flaws, the sooner they become aware that they are CAPABLE of being flawed, and the sooner they become aware that the flaws of others has no bearing on their own flaws, they will improve.
i was recently arguing with a person about one of their flaws. it did not start as an argument, but it soon progressed to one. the argument was about her tendency to dismiss people, and their ideas without considering them. almost as if they werent worthy of her attention. when i confronted her about this, she got very offended, and started attacking me and pointing out her flaws. it took half an hour, but finally i got her to realize that my flaws were irrelevant as far as her’s were concerned. in fact, for a while she actually changed. she regressed later…but that’s irrelevant. for a time she changed. because she was able to realize that she was flawed, that all of us are flawed, and that she will never change as a person if she continues to disregard the rebuke of the flawed.
we need to get over ourselves. none of us are perfect, and none of us will ever BE perfect. we all have flaws. roshei yeshivos have flaws. menahalim have flaws. gedolei hador have flaws. rabbonim, marah d’asrahs maggidei shiur, they ALL have flaws. are we not to accept their mussar because of it? of course we will accept it! then why not from our fellow man? why not from our peers? because it hurts our egos? we need to get over ourselves or we will never improve.
well said, the only way to improve is to accept that we need to.
Maybe people will accept it more if the person giving the advice conveys that they are only doing it because they care. Plus, maybe they can make a deal with the person, for example, I’ll work on this and you work on that. That way, the person doesn’t feel like the only one doing something.
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