- This topic has 119 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
When traveling out of town, how do you know the shul is actually Orthodox? Is the presence of a mechitza enough? How about the name/label/association of the shul? How about the presence of a community Kollel davening there?
Sadly in one Southwestern city, a synagogue with all three of these gives the appearance of being Orthodox but actually is not. Why not?
Lets look at just a few aspects for now:
1) The supposedly Orthodox shul was built on Shabbat by a Jewish contractor and its “rabbi” actively inspected the construction progress on Shabbat.
2) An at least two separate Shabbatot food was cooked then served when the “rabbi” said no one would notice.
3) Even though the organization this synagogue is part of requires all officers be Shomer Shabbat, synagogue officers openly drive to the synagogue and one even smokes on Shabbat.
4) Even though the organization this synagogue has as its name requires its parking spaces be closed on Shabbat, this synagogue adamantly refuses to close its spaces even though there are many other spaces nearby.
5) Even though the constitution of the parent organization forbids admission charges (other than seats for the Yomim Naraim), this synagogue denied a quiet widow to daven in the synagogue and even had her charged with trespassing after she stopped paying dues following the death of her husband. The Torah in Parshas Mishpatim is extremely clear on not causing anguish to a widow or even being silent when one sees her affliction.
There are many more details and other incidents far too numerous to list here. But it is sufficient to say that you cannot assume that a shul in Nevada is anywhere like one in Flatbush with the same brand.
If there are 10 Jewish males over the age of 13 sitting seperate from the women that is called a kosher shul.
Artchill – I like that answer. I would go one step further and add, if the people there are actually DAVENING and not talking to each other, instead of to Hashem, that to me is a kosher shul.
I do not know what halacha says but if there are such obvious violations of Shabbos going on, I think I would stay away from that shule.
In my personal opinion, someone who openly violates any mitzvoh
(like saying Loshon Hara, when they clearly know what they are saying is assur, and they make excuses for it, or if they wear untznius clothes like the Halachly forbidden ‘slit’, at the bottom of some skirts and dresses and have been living with frumkeit long enough that they clearly should know better, or were clearly told and refuse to change) is not “Frum”.
artchill
If there are 10 Jewish males over the age of 13 sitting seperate from the women that is called a kosher shul.
They must be Shomer Shabbos, not just Jewish.
What if there are 10 Jewish males with a lady Chazzan/Rabbi? Whould you say thats a Kosher Shul? What if there “davening” in English? Accompanied by an organ on Shabbos? What about a “shul” that gives aliyos to ladies/girls? artchill, would you call that a kosher shul?
da: Kindly READ what I wrote. If genders are s-e-p-e-r-a-t-e-d isn’t it self evident that no aliyos will be given to women during the services? Isn’t it self evident that the chazzan/rabbi won’t be women?
Zero seperate gender synagogues have musical accompainiment on Shabbos. What English tefillos are you talking about?
Let me clue you in: Young Israel is NOT Reform!
What defines an Orthodox shul?
A shul filled with many doctors.
Since Young Israel was brought up (not by me) let me ask;
They may not be from the Reform religion, but are any from the Conservative religion?
I do not know, I am just asking.
hereorthere; I have davened in quite a few young Israel shuls throughout the U.S. If not for them I wouldn’t have a minyan.
Most of them them were more than fine.
some probably have a frumer oilem than where you & I daven!
artchill
If there are 10 Jewish males over the age of 13 sitting seperate from the women that is called a kosher shul.
artchill, you said if ten Jewish men are sitting separate from the women. I was asking if the things I said happened even with separate seating, would you call it a Kosher shul?
I never said anything about Young Israel.
da: Since such a thing does not happen during the REGULAR tefillos it’s kind of a moot point. Yes, there is a very left leaning ORTHODOX shul which has a SEPERATE WOMEN ONLY minyan. Obviously, as a male, you would have no place in that minyan, so it’s not nogeiah to you anyways!!
By the way I am VERY, VERY proud that you never mentioned Young Israel. My mistake, I owe you a freeze pop!!!
artchill, I don’t like freeze pops. Give me a vanilla ice cream in a cone with peanut topping and I’ll be happy!
Also, I was not talking from experience, I was just asking on your statement.
Chalav Stam or Cholov Yisrael??!!
What you were describing are Reform temples, which is why I got upset. Whether or not you feel comfortable in a modern Orthodox shul, don’t think that they are Reform or Conservative. In Chicago alone some of the most yeshivishe askanim who support many mosdos worldwide are ONLY frum today because of their involvement in modern Orthodox youth programs.
What is “SEPERATE WOMEN ONLY minyan”? Does not MINYAN a group of 10 MEN 13yo and older?
notrichenough: This is like a ‘minyan’ for 5th graders. It is only to let the egalitarianized women feel they have a say. It is a ceremonious minyan, NOT a minyan in a halachic sense.
The RCA has new guidelines for the requirements to be an Orthodox Rabbi. Please get updated. For more info, contact Rabbi Avi Weiss at the Yankee Stadium, getting lessons in the Heimlich maneuver.
If the shul sanctions breaking halacha, it is not a kosher shul. If it does not, only the people there happen to not keep halacha, then as long as the services are done in a way that is al pi halacha, one may daven there. To define what is al pi halacha, learn shas and shulchan aruch or ask your rav.
The built on Shabbos sheilah is a separate sheilah, it has nothing to do with the fact that it is a shul. Depending on whether they told them to build it on shabbos or the builders just did it on their own and some other factors, it would be assur or muttar to enter any such structure, and you should ask your rav.
1) Does it have a candyman? (2 points) A backup candyman? (1 point)
3) Is the Aron Hakodesh made from a safe that is more secure than Fort Knox? (3 points) less secure than Fort Knox? (minus 1 point)
4) Would Shimshon HaGibor have difficulty doing hagboh on the second sefer Torah? (2 points)
5) Do the lights turn off in the middle of Musaf at least three times a year? (1 point)
6) Is there a Kiddush after davening at least once a month? (2 points) With kugel? (1 point) And cholent? (2 points) Fleishig cholent? (5 points)
7) Is there at least one hoisofa each week by laining? (1 point) More than 4 hoisofas? (minus 3 points)
8) Are there signs posted throughout the shul requesting that you return your sefer to its place after usage? (1 point) Are there unreturned seforim piled on the tables below those signs? (1 point)
9) Are at least 5% of the siddurim missing a key page of davening? (1 point) In the middle of Shemona Esrai? (2 points)
10) Is there an average of at least one tzedaka pamphlet per table? (1 point) Divrei Torah? (2 points) In Hebrew? (2 points)
11) Is there at least one London Fog raincoat that has been in the coatroom since Rosh Hashona? (1 point) And a hat? (1 point)
12) By an afruf, are the pekalach thrown at the chosson? (0 points) or at the gabai? (2 points)
Scores:
[shaincoat], in which case you must walk to your regular shul).
Choose wisely!
(if this is inappropriate or insulting to anyone please remove it)
bein_hasdorim, what I am asking is not if there are some that are very ‘frum’ and excellent places to daven.
I know there are.
I am asking if any of them anywhere are not proper places for a frum Jew.
Out of all Young Israel places everywhere, is there a single one anywhere, that might be a problem halachically, for someone to daven in?
To put it another way, does the sign saying “Young Israel” automatically guarantee, that it always is by definition, a kosher shule to daven in, always and everywhere without question, under any circumstances?
artchill is basically correct. There is no shul I’ve ever seen that follows every halachah much less every opinion. (Is there a shul anywhere that really has no talking, ever?) I’ve received a psak from my rav that I can daven even in an openly non-Orthodox shul as long as the service itself is run according to halachah. (In fact, in a community with no true O shul, it might be a mitzvah to help out a halachic minyan in the basement of a C shul. Eventually they might get enough supporters to break away.)
There ARE some things that some shuls do that should not be done and appearances can be deceiving; my rabbi once warned me about a particular shul with a very high mechitzah that hires non-Jews to heat up the kiddish food on Shabat morning! OTOH I davened this morning in a shul whose mechitzah didn’t even reach my waist; I guarantee that it has been orthodox longer than the home shul of anyone else posting here from anywhere in America (in fact, it was around before the term orthodox had even been applied to Jews).
And don’t even judge by the presence of an open parking lot. I belonged to a shul that had a parking lot that had people coming and going all Shabat: The shul had a lot of doctors and hatzalah volunteers who often got called for emergencies. To have to unlock the gate each time might have cost precious minutes.
ICOT- ur funny!
As far as I know Young Israels are all Orthodox and Kosher. (IE mehitza, artscroll or similar sidurim etc).
Now that does not mean that there could be a case where you could find a specific problem with A specific shul, I have not been to every Young Israel in the USA, but there is no reason to suspect one is a problem without some other information. (AFAIK, CYLOR)
When I travel, the name I trust is Chabad. And yes, some of the people in the minyan are not yet frum, and some of the women are not dressed the way we do so in BP.
But out of town, like middle of the country out of town? If a shaliach is OK with this set up 52 weeks a year. it works for me too.
YI works too, but when I travel, it usually for work and I’m FAR away from a community that can support a YI.
So in a word, Chabad. And that goes for the food establishments in the town as well. If the shaliach feeds it to his family, thats all I need to hear.
(AFAIK, CYLOR)……… What does this mean/indicate?
smartcookie-
Glad my silliness gave you a chuckle.
hereorthere-
AFAIK = as far as I know
CYLOR = consult your local orthodox Rabbi
(Google is quite helpful with web acronyms)
“Rabbi” Avi Weiss is not orthodox.
how about if it has a rabbah? 😉
“Rabbi” Avi Weiss is not orthodox. “
careful, that is motzi shem ra.
“A shul filled with many doctors. ” LOL
I can only try; thanks.
Rabbi Avi Weiss is strictly observant, believes in Torah Mi Sinai, presides over a Orthodox Union member shul with Orthodox services conducted with mechitzahs separating the men from the women, does not permit women to receive aliyot or count for a minyan, is a member in good standing of the Rabbinical Council of America and the Vaad HaRabonim of Riverdale and tells his shul members to adhere to the Vaad’s kashrut, strongly supports Orthodox institutions in his own community, and defends Orthodox hashkafic positions in front of sceptical audiences. He also says that the ideal career for a bright young Jewish man is in the rabbinate rather than a profession like medicine or law.
Sounds Orthodox to me.
If you show up for a morning minyan it is quite likely that someone will actually say “hi” to you. And if you are a man who is new to observance, someone might help you to put on tefillin. And if you are unfamiliar with Aramaic and struggle to say kaddish, they will help you out by prompting and not rushing through the prayer.
EDITED
Lashon Tov,
Everyone is the shul I mentioned knows the halachah; reminders are not needed.
charliehall-
“There is no shul I’ve ever seen that follows every halachah…Is there a shul anywhere that really has no talking, ever”
Yes, there are numerous shuls that follow every halacha and that have really no talking whatsoever; including my own.
“is a member in good standing of the Rabbinical Council of America”
So what’s all the fuss about? Why was Avi Weiss nearly thrown out of the RCA and had to agree to change shul policy to stay in?
“with mechitzahs separating the men from the women”
BTW, the comment casting aspersions on the frumkeit of Rabbi Weiss, is one of the more typical remarks made by people who are otherwise fine people, but seem intolerant of people whose share a differing view of Orthodoxy.Not everyone who is frum is chareidi, or yeshivish frum. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE NOT FRUM, EHRLICHE YIDDEN. If someone is 100% shomer shabbos, strictly kosher, and the woman he married goes to mikveh regularly, he is frum. If he is also careful in his financial and social dealings with people, he is frum. He may differ in his approach in some areas, may or may not have a beard, may or may not have the same hashkafa that you do, but that does not lessen his frumkeit.
The negative judgmentalism that is marchik one Jew from another, is IMO a more serious problem facing Klal Yisroel today, than whether or not a woman is capable and deserving to be respected for her knowledge of Torah. Rabbi Weiss made a mistake by taking his opinion in that area a little too “out there,” but he realized it, took responsibility, and rectified the mistake, and I respect him for that (it had to be very humbling for him). I would like to see some of the more chareidi people admit when THEY have gone too far (like shoving a woman around on a bus).
“If someone is 100% shomer shabbos, strictly kosher, and the woman he married goes to mikveh regularly, he is frum. If he is also careful in his financial and social dealings with people, he is frum.”
There’s just a little more to it than that. According to this definition, Korach was the frumest of the frum.
Charliehall-
you write (In fact, in a community with no true O shul, it might be a mitzvah to help out a halachic minyan in the basement of a C shul. Eventually they might get enough supporters to break away.) Actually R’Moshe has a teshuva saying exactly the opposite. He says if a orthodox minyan is looking for a place to daven they it is assur for them to rent a room in a conservative shul
Why not? Have you read R’ Moshe’s teshuva on mechitzos? I believe he holds it just has to show a separation between the two sides. It doesn’t have to be high enough to completely hide one side from the other.
“just has to show a separation between the two sides”
How much is “just”?
I don’t think his “machitza” is apparent in terms of acting as a separator since the physical proximity of the men and women is extremely close.
According to Reb Moshe the minimum height for a mechitzah is 66 inches. Many other Gedolim, including Rav Hutner, paskened it must be higher.
There’s just a little more to it than that. According to this definition, Korach was the frumest of the frum.
So, what’s your definition of “frum” as it is to be understood today?
The Wolf
As I general rule, if someone tells me they are frum, I believe them. Unless they are blantantly disregarding halacha in all aspects of their lives.
Its not for me to judge if someone is truly observant or not. Plenty of people look the part and don’t act the part.
WolfishMusings – “what’s your definition of “frum” as it is to be understood today?’
It requires some thought but certainly it would be a sham for a rabbi to consider himself frum unless he is a yiras shamayim, follows the shulchan aruch, is humble enough to respect and not alter the mesorah, recognize that you are not on par with the great g’dolim and poskim of the past and present, and have a Rav to ask shailos and eitzos as in “aseh l’cha Rav”.
cherrybim:
You are making a cholent out a straightforward traditionally defined translation of the MINIMAL requirements of frumkeit. They are:
*Shabbos
*Kashrus
*Taharas Mishpacha
A person can be the most tzanua person, but eating chicken from a Puerto Rican bodega makes that person NOT FRUM.
A person can host parlor meetings galor and have every gadol sign your guest book as an erliche yid, but if you break the laws of tahara mishpacha, that person is NOT FRUM.
A peron can ask shailos and all that but when crunch time comes and the six million dollar deal has to be signed at 8:55 Friday night or six months of work go down the drain, they give in and are Michallel Shabbos, that person is NOT FRUM.
Artchill, if that happens once or twice in the person life and they do the wrong thing, I wouldn’t call them not frum. I would only assume they aren’t frum if it happens habitually.
A person is required to follow 613 mitzvos. If someone is not following lekatchila 1 of the 613 mitzvos (knowing that it’s a mitzva) then that person is not frum. If someone is following all the mitzvos but is struggling with some of them and is working on them then that person is frum
I agree with “says who”.
Says who, I don’t know anyone who can fulfill all 613.
SJSinNYC
Obvouisly, I meant when and what is possible to fulfill
All you need is the will to.
TMB, can you fulfill all 613? You would be a first 🙂
- The topic ‘What defines an Orthodox shul?’ is closed to new replies.