Segulos

I said Shir Hashirim for someone and she said it for me for 40 days straight. I got engaged the night of the 40th-(and it was not planned!)-it can be any time during the day or night-I don’t think it makes a difference

Thank you for the opportunity to post an anti-segulah rant.

I don’t know whether segulahs work or not. I do know that as I understand them they are not part of how I understand Judaism. Judaism is the worship of G-d and the fulfilling of his command. We are commanded 613 things.

We believe that G-d always does what is best for a person. By doing what we are supposed to, we ensure that in the next world we will be rewarded. What happens in this world is not guaranteed.

Learning Shir Hashirim is a mitzva. So is learning perek shira and saying “amen”. And so is learning the 17th perek of Iyov.

The Torah gives us guidelines on how to decide which mitzvos should be performed at which times. We are supposed to follow these guidelines as the ratzon Hashem. The only deciding factor in any decision should be what is ratzon Hashem.

Some people imagine that by performing certain mitzvos in certain orders (sometimes not even mitzvos), they will “force G-d” to act in a certain way. I know of no basis to believe such a thing; but, even if it were true, is it a good idea? G-d does what is best for a person, by “forcing him”, you may get what is bad for you.

This is not the same as davening. We are commanded to ask G-d for our needs and G-d responds with what is good for us. Sometimes the asking changes what is good for us. But can anyone believe that if a person does what G-d wants, asks for his needs, but neglects to recite Shir Hashirim for 40 days, he will not get what he deserves?

Just what type of G-d do you believe in?

arc: I was more delicate than to call it avoda zara, but you may if you wish.

Do I believe that giving tzedaka is more effective when invoking the name of R’ Meir baal hanes? I suppose one can daven in his merit. I suppose one can use the memory of his nissim to bolster his bitachon. I don’t suppose one can superstitiously babble his name and expect miracles.

I would like to add one point. People have this idea that they will daven for someone else who needs the same thing and thereby get it themselves. I believe this is a misinterpretation of the chazal.

If despite one’s own needs, one is able to care even more about the problems of the other, and so davens for him, this shows a deep concern and high level of chesed and rachamim- the purpose of creation. It easily follows that such a person deserves an extra level of rachamim from Hashem.

If however, a person davens for someone else BECAUSE he thinks it will help himself, this only reflects on his concern for himself. He is merely using the other as a tool to fulfill his own needs. (Perhaps he is even happy to find someone with the same problem so that he can daven for him and be answered first.) The oft quoted statement of chazal does not really apply to this person.

ok. I can let it stand the way you wrote it. The sentence seems a little wordy now, but I don’t know what to do with it.

Can someone please answer if there is a yehi ratzon you say when you say shir hashirim, or do u just have the persons name in mind????? (same with perek shira?)

Reminds me of a story. A certain yungerman’s wife had agreed to bake challah as part of a 40 woman group. Thursday night, this woman was extremely tired and was distressed at the thought of beginning to bake challah. The husband told her, “go to sleep, I’m baking challah.” Now that is my kind of segula.

oomis: I like your take on the issue. To view it as a way to do chessed sounds good to me.You also seem to be asking what danger I see in segulas.

The way I heard it from my rebbeim, the issue is that people tend to use it as a substitute for real growth. Every emphasis is also a de-emphasis on something else. Recall the recent perek shira frenzy. Perek shira is a nice thing to learn, but is it really as important as many other things which could have been focused on? Saying “amen” is extremely important, but are amen parties really the best way to use that time to serve Hashem.

My point is that by focusing on easy, less important issues, people get a sense of having achieved levels in ruchniyos which they have not, and do not work on the issues which truly need work.

Please address this: I applaud your view that baking challah is an exercise in chessed and achdus. However, I can think of far better ways to do chessed and practice achdus. Why not get 40 women together to actually help people in a physical way?

mod

yes….. i know what ‘sheba’al peh’ means. sorry for the confusion. but thanks for the clarification.

popa_bar_abba: A wise person told me that when you were helped with a yeshua, you have a special koach to daven for others in the same boat – perhaps it is just a koach that comes from understanding the pain of that particular situation, and being able to empathize. Whatever it is, may you continue to have yeshuos and hatzlocha, and may the special koach you got, be successful in helping others.

I agree with bombmaniac. The term “seforim kedoshim” has no relevance unless they are identified.Their “mesorah” is limited to those who accept it, and does not exist for those who don’t. The packagaing of it all under “torah sheb’al peh” is open to debate.

EDITED

i was planning on making 2 points, one was made by oomis1105 so I’ll jump to the second.

I believe that if a holy person says do 15 jumping jacks and xyz will happen, it will happen! but i don’t think if someone prints doing 15 jumping jacks will bring you xyz, that it will! it helped me because the holy person said it will. so it’s not the jumping jacks that works but the holy persons blessing

“Why not get 40 women together to actually help people in a physical way? “

You will be delighted to know that the women in my community who do this, ALSO spend their free time cooking for people who are ill or chalilah sitting shiva, visit them, drive their kids to and from school, shop for them, and take them to and from doc appointments. I think that is pretty physical. They get together and say Tehillim as a group, on a regular basis, for the cholim of the community. That is both physical and spiritual. B”H, they are ready to do any and all types of chessed as needed.

“anyone know why it doesn’t seem to work?”

Chesedname – Aizehu asher? Hasameach bechelko.

Are you starving? Do you have a roof over your head?

Don’t assume that if you had it, you’re still going to have it. What you have now is a new gift from Hashem, not an old one.

So if you show your appreciation for the gift, and give more Tzedaka, Hashem will continue to provide.

I don’t know if that promise applies to Maaser K’safim. It is written in the pasuk by giving Maaser of produce. Many peopel extend it to Maaser of money as well though.

Also, how do you know it doesn’t work? The promise doesn’t say that as soon as you give the Maaser, more money will magically appear in your bank account. It could be that it takes time. Have bitachon that Hashem will fulfill the promise and eventually he will.

how many ppl do you know are so wealthy they say “enough already” how many frum ppl do you know that are really worth many millions? compared to the amount of yidden giving masser very few

Hashem says he will give “bracha ad bli dai”. You seem to think this means that the person giving the maaser will say “enough already”. I don’t know what your source is for that, but there is a concept of “sameach b’chelko”. Some people can be given millions and it still won’t be enough for them, does that mean that Hashem didn’t fulfill his promise or that the person himself is too absorbed in gashmiyus to recognize the bracha? Being worth millions does not mean wealthy and wealthy does not mean worth millions. Give maaser and Hashem will provide you with more than enough – whether you notice it or not. In today’s economy many people are only now realizing how wealthy they were a few years ago. A few years ago as their businesses were going up they just wanted “more and more” and never said “enough”, today they wish they could have what they had back then without the extra “more and more”

You say the promise is “wealth”. Pirkei Avos defines “ashir” as “sameach b’chelko”. I’m not sure exactly what your source is other than the pasuk in Malachi which says “bracha ad bli dai” which basically means “a blessing of enough”, why do you define that bracha as “wealth”? And even so, how do you define “wealth”? Should Hashem give you $1 million? $2 million? $100 million?

most ppl don’t have much money and live month to month, as per the halacha these ppl are not only wealthy, but are entitled to tzedaka (less than 6 month cash reserve, makes a person entitled to tzedaka)

ad bli dai, dai means enough, translation is they’ll have wealth until they say enough, that’s literal translation.

all the gemarahs, seforim, rabbi’s, tanach, say the reward is wealth, not that you’ll be able to make a living

So we established the reward and promise is wealth, and that doesn’t mean being poor and happy!

The question of what is wealth? 100 million, 500 million? great question, I’m not sure. i guess it would depend on what makes that person “happy” (that’s what pirkei avos means happy with what you have) but in either case it’s not living month to month, or even 10k in the bank. maybe you can argue if someone owes zero on his house, car, and has money put away for all his kids weddings, etc. that’s wealth, fine. how many ppl have that kind of money?

not many, so we’re still back to the question of why not?

YW Moderator-42

no, there is no set amount to be called wealthy.

but if someone has a modest home, drives a Honda accord, etc.. and doesn’t have more than six months worth of expenses put away (again, he can collect tzedaka with less than 6 months worth) i think everyone would agree he’s not “wealthy” comfortable maybe, wealthy not.

lets do even better, shouldn’t the guy who gives masser, have at least 6 or more months worth of expenses in the bank (assuming he doesn’t have investments)

Chesedname, I notice that your question is about “everybody”. Let’s keep this about yourself and it would be alot easier to answer it. Before speaking about others, speak to them first.

We find that Moshe Rabbeinu asked Hashem the famous question of Tzaddik V’ra Lo. It is not clear if he got an answer. Moshe Rabbeinu was shown the plight of Rebbi Akiva and said, “Zu Torah V’zu S’chara?” On the other hand when we look at Rebbi Akiva himself, we find that he answers his Talmidim that this is the greatest opportunity in his life. No questions.

Back to the issue at hand, in the Gemmara in Shabbos we find that Rebbi asked Rebbi Yishmoel B’reb Yosi in what Zechus did the rich of Eretz Yisroel become rich. He answered that they give Maaser. Then he asked about the rich of Bavel, to which he replied that they are Mechabed the Torah.

First of all, from the fact that he was not satisfied with the first answer as pertaining to the Bavelites, shows us that the Mod is correct in that it is referring to real Maaser.

Second of all, nothing is a sure way to anywhere. Richness has to do with Mazel among other things. If you notice, the question is, how where the rich Zocheh. Not everyone will become rich, but in order to become rich there has to be a Zechus. If it helps, you can also think of it as adding gas to the engine. If it’s broken, leaking over-loaded or choked, the effect will be stopped or dampened. But, my point was more than that.

The concept that we learn from this Memra of Chazal also applies to Tzeddaka in general, of course. Now, of course it does not mean that you will surely get rich. It does mean that Hashem gives to those who give. The Maharal likens this to a well that as you take water from it, more flows in. If you speak to people about this you will hear remarkable stories of how after giving Tzeddaka they got helped from unexpected sources. I had my own experience a few days ago, when although very pressed, I gave somebody more than I would usually think of giving, and that day, I avoided a car accident at the last second.

chesedname – Most wealthy people are not satisfied with what they have and have never said that they have enough.

So the promise that you reference is allegorical: If you give Tzedaka, you will get back more than you give. So the more you give, the more you get since Hashem sees that you are a good repository for His money to be dispensed to the poor. We are in essence Hashem bank tellers; He deposits with us and the poor withdraw.

based on what you’re saying the reward for masser is being happy with what you have.

besides the fact that goes against every sefer and gemarah, which says the reward is wealth, which means a lot of money.

how would you explain the ppl that give masser and are not happy with what they have? you can’t say they should learn to be happy, because that’s true for all of us, according to you the reward should mean that hashem makes everyone happy with what they have?

volvie

now tanach give masser and hashem will give you back ad bli dai, dai means enough, translation is they’ll have wealth until they say enough, that’s literal translation.

now gemarah, it says in many places the rewrd for masser is wealth, they get it from the torah and tanach quoted above.

i don’t think hashem would promise wealth, and go as far as saying you can even test me, and then say well really the reward is i’ll make yoiu happy with what you have, of the fact you have an apartment and some ppl are homeless means you’re wealth

$40,000/year could be considered wealthy.

Just as a side point, one should not confuse income and wealth. While one may lead to the other, they are not the same. A person can have a very high income and yet be quite poor.

The Wolf

chesed:

lets say someone makes a million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants ten million dollars, why isn’t the person making ten million dollars??

lets say someone makes ten million dollars and doesn’t say enough and wants a hundred million dollars, why isn’t the person making a hundred million dollars??