Yeshivah Boy in a Co-ed College

a bais yaakov girl shouldnt be in a co-ed college either.

Yes.

It depends on the individual, and on his reasons for attending that college.

In todays society it is often necessary to get a degree and I beleive that people should go to college. Whether to go to a “Jewish” college or not is a question each person should discuss with his or her Rebbeim. I know many people who got their undergrad degree from Touro college and got a very good education. On the other hand, I wouldn’t necessarily say that Touro is that much better then other colleges when it comes to co-ed. I have seen the scene at Touro on Avenue J between classes during the summer and it is, in my opinion, not appropriate for a ben Torah. Better to go to a non-Jewish college where at least you realize that the people around you are not your type of people then to chas veshalom be negatively influenced by the “frum” people at Touro.

There was once a lovely girl who went to a very chashuvah seminary (this is going back about fifteen years), who wanted very much to come back to America and attend Queens College, a public institution. She went to her Menaheles, a well-known Mechaneches, who advised her to teach in the morning, and attend classes in the afternoon/evening. The Ruchniyus that her morning teaching in Limudei Kodesh would give her would ground her for the experience. She did so and married a wonderful learning boy and established a chashuvah home.

In the New York area there are wonderful yeshivas for boys who don’t want to compromise their ruchniyus for their career and for whatever reason must attend co-ed college. These Rebbes are doing a wonderful job in guiding the boys and maintaining their learning and Yiddishkeit. Please speak to your Rav or seek out one of these yeshivas. Hatzlocha VeBrocha.

Ultimately, I don’t believe that there is a “one size fits all” answer to this question — as it must take into account several factors:

1. The temperament of the bochur.

2. The background of the bochur and his previous experiences.

3. What type of school he is going to (going to a public school while living at home is much different than dorming in a co-ed environment).

and probably a few other factors I neglected to mention. For some people in some circumstances, it would be absolutely right, while in other cases it could be incredibly wrong. Each case needs to be weighed individually.

The Wolf

how many of these people will end up in college

Those that want professional careers that require a college education.

Or are you telling me that it is impossible for a doctor, psychologist, lawyer, etc. to be “steeped in Torah and Yiras Shamayim?”

The Wolf

no easy answer – depends on the boy – but my follow-up question, what about a yeshiva boy in a co-ed work environment – ? Where is the line drawn?

A college is a more promiscuous environment than an office.

In a calculus class I once took there was a young man. I don’t know whether or not he was a “yeshiva bochur,” but he wore a yarmulke and tzitzis. Every time he had difficulty grasping an easy concept, I would just shake my head and think “and they think girls are too stupid to learn gemorah!”

Now imagine if I was some BY girl fresh out of seminary and this is my first exposure to a frum boy who isn’t related to me. What a turn-off.

I think AZOLIS was right when he mentioned that there are those who say it’s better after marriage.

Wolf, au contraire. It is only due to the weakness of faith that plagues these late generations that we build a shell around our communities – not because our faith is incompatible with the world. Ideally, we would all be wordly and steeped in Torah + Yiras Shamayim.

Jothar posted: “A college is a more promiscuous environment than an office.”

Promiscuity can be found anywhere by one who looks for it.

A good education, on the other hand, is much more easily obtained at a university than anywhere else.

Joseph, you are unequivocally wrong. Ignorance, and not education, is the antithesis of Judaism.

“And some Torah Jews (men and women) may be interested in education for its own sake–whether in science, medicine, Yiddish culture, Tanach, English literature, law, etc.”

That is completely the antithesis of Judaism.

About half the discussions here get to this point eventually, right?

Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L attend the Sorbonne? In France, yet!!!!!

Knowledge for its own sake is exactly what Judaism is about

That ONLY applies to study of the Jewish texts. It does NOT apply to secular knowledge, such as science, culture, literature, and law to take some of your examples above.

you need a doctor, do you think that he or she should not have pursued his or her knowledge for its own sake? The best ones do, you know.

I don’t believe that for a moment. They studied the material for the sake of practice, not for the sake of knowledge alone.

I know a few people who did graduate work on the study of Piyyutim–by crawling into the material found in the Cairo Geniza and published previously forgotten Piyyutim and Kedusha’ot.

The Cairo Geniza material is unreliable and unauthoritative.

Joseph, scientific knowledge and the great works of literature, music and other culture is also inspired by exactly the same source that inspires Jewish culture. The fact that you think that we should remain in a self-imposed ghetto by calling everything that does not come from (your particular flavor of) Judaism does not constrain the rest of us. I personally know Hareidi Rabbanim who have Ph.D.s in such topics as you list above, and they lead just as Torah-true lifestyles as anyone else.

The people researching the Geniza material spend a great deal of their time authenticating it. Do you think that they spend years just copying it down? I know folks who have spent time travelling around Europe, the US and Israel simply to cross-reference piyyutim found in old Machzorim held in private hands and museums.

What you (Joseph) believe about scientific and medical research is of no matter. I suspect that you have little knowledge of that world or the people who live in it. The best, and most productive people do it for the love of it, as well as the idea of treating people. In addition, those who are not clinicians do not directly treat people, and must hope for future benefits. The majority of those people do it for the love of discovery and knowledge.

Oy Vey! where to start? If this bochur had two options, on the path he chooses to follow in his career, 1)all male touro, or 2)co-ed, of course he should choose

an all male environment, besides for his ruchnius, he would have an easier time

1)being more comfortable in an environment he’s used to,

2) no physical distractions. Isn’t that why he’s there? to learn!

If his career choice doesn’t come with that option,

I agree with “the wolf” that it really depends on the guy, background, maturity,

professionalism, etc.. some guys, considering their personality, it wuould be a

very bad idea. (not ending up in a kiddush Hashem as s/o put it.)

Jothar,

I have little idea of what goes on in the “average office” if there is such a thing. Mea maxima culpa.

I do not think that one need violate any issurim to research geniza manuscripts.

As far as sakanot in mixed universities–I would like to think that part of a good religious education lies in teaching about those sakanot and how to deal with them. It is not really that difficult. Especially if one attends university to learn–not to fool around. University, in my opinion, should be a place where one concentrates on studying. I do realize, of course, that this is not always the the case. It seems to me that, these days, students attend college to:

Acquire knowledge for its own sake

Acquire knowledge to enter a profession for parnassa

socialize at one level or another.

While none of the above are mutually incompatible, we can assume that for the purposes of this discussion that #3 is not relevant. I think that the first two are both excellent reasons for attending a college, and #2 may even be necessary in many (not all) cases to support a Torah lifestyle, as income is correlated with education. For this reason, it is imperative on us to educate our children about the outside world–what is good and what is bad.

One does not need to enter a college to see evils of modern society to which we do not wish to expose our children. We can see this on every billboard or every shop that we enter. The only way that we can teach our children to avoid the treif in today’s world is through education. If our schools are not teaching these things to our children well enough after 12 years, then something is VERY wrong with the system. Of course, it is primarily a matter for the parents–but the same thing goes. If a yeshiva boy or seminary girl does not know right from wrong–then what are we teaching them in the yeshivas and seminaries?

Of course, if someone can achieve their educational goals in a single-gender college, and feels more comfortable there, that is where he or she should be. In fact, too bad that those colleges do not have more options for courses of study than they currently do. This would expand the number of people that could achieve their goals in such institutions.

BS”D

Didn’t the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”L attend the Sorbonne? In France, yet!!!!!

Actually no one is sure of this (although it seems as if he did attend some classes there) but what is known is that any university classes he took in Germany and at an engineering institute in France were of a technical (engineering or mathematics) nature.

starwolf, Today for the right price anyone can get a piece of paper that says semicha on it. That doesn’t make whatever such individual(‘s) do kosher.

Joseph: In general I would say it is better to postpone college until after marriage (for both boys and girls). However, like any generalization, there are exceptions. In some cases it would not be detrimental. In fact, there are probably even a few cases where it would strengthen them.