Why Do People Knock Agudath Israel?

Who Knocks Agudah? They are great!

“I have come to the conclusion that the people who make an effort to take issue with them are all people who wish that they themselves were in charge calling the shots.”

I agree. And as a alternative, they may also be the people who prefer to sit on the recliner or chomp on a pastrami sandwich whilst detailing all the ills of the people who are actually doing the work.

Agudah does a lot of good.

Nevertheless, as I have mentioned here, many times, they are on the wrong side of the Zionism issue. The fact that they declared the state illegitimate 25 years before it was founded, and have never come to grips with it, shows a confusion in dealing with current reality. They never acknowledge the good that it has done, and do not show hakaras hatov to the soldiers who are constantly being moser nefesh for the klal. They are allergic to any mention of the medinah in tefilos, such as a misheberach for the medinah or the misheberach for the chayalim.

In addition, there are at least as many non-Agudah gedolim who supported Zionism, but they are never acknowledged.

They have consistently opposed YU on the grounds that it is Torah Umada, and opposed all college for that matter until recently. They are now waking up to the fact that it is necessary for parnasa, but will never admit that the YU approach was right all along. (Touro is basically a carbon-copy of YU, but they make it seem like it is a tremendous new innovation which is somehow kosher now. It is because they will not retract or apologize for their old position against YU, that they grasp at straws to find differences between Touro and YU. Touro was actually started by YU people.)

They have always opposed Chabad and the Lubavitcher Rebbe, not just in shita, and not because of the meshichism, but beginning for many years before that and possibly from the days of the previous Rebbe. They constantly launched vehement personal attacks against them. This despite the fact that the last and the previous Rebbes (and all the rest of the Chabad rebbes) were unquestionably from the greatest gedolim of the generation. (The Rebbe has over 100 sefarim of his sichos and writings on all areas of nigleh and nistar.)

They have done much good in polishing the image of Torah and making it available to the masses, and encouraging a rebuilding of advanced Torah learning since the holocaust and the building of many yeshivos. However, the primary problem is that they do not give proper respect to other equally valid views. Remember that the halacha is like Beis Hillel, because “Shonim divreihem vdivrei Bais Shammai.” Beis Hillel always first cited and explained the views of Beis Shammai, and only then would respectfully disagree. Agudah is not goreis any other opinions.

PS. Regarding the mixed seating issue, I have heard that all Reb Moshe’s children’s weddings were mixed. But I just now heard a mayseh about someone who was invited to a mixed simcha and asked Reb Shmuel Kaminetsky if he can go. Reb Shmuel told him that Reb Aharon Kotler made 3 weddings for his kids, and all were mixed, as well. It seems like it is basically a chassidishe custom which has crept into the heimisher world recently. (I personally think that it is because anytime anybody has a new chumra, he can very easily make anybody who doesn’t hold of it seem like a kofer and a rasha, while the person who does what was always the minhag has no strong argument and is always made to feel guilty. So the biggest chumra always wins. This is despite the fact that Chazal say koach dhetera adif.)

So the bottom line is that Agudah has played an important role in rebuilding Torah, but their acrimonious attitudes to other groups has cause terrible sinas chinam and major rifts in klal yisroel in place of what should be shalom and ahavah for all yidden. A generation ago, one would find the finest children were from chareidi homes. They were sweet, friendly, sincere, devoted to learning and always looking to do chesed. Now unfortunately, some of them spend a lot of energy snickering at other Jews and groups and telling loshon hora. This developed because they heard their leaders putting down other Jews. I firmly believe that if all charedim stopped loshon hora completely against all other groups and the state of Israel, no kids would ever go off the derech. They would see such fine midos at home and at school that they would never think of leaving such a gan eden.

I could tear apart P. Yid’s anti-agudah comments, line-by-line on both a factual and hashkafic basis. But why bother? Others have done so with his past comments and yet he keeps repeating them like a broken record.

“I think it is self-understood why people knock on the doors of Agudath Israel in their time of need. It is because Agudah is committed to helping klal yisrael.”

Dear Squeak,

I respectfully request that you ask all to put down their drinks before reading your posts. As I usually have a cup in hand when reading the CR, this would be a helpful Chessed.

Sincerely,

Bemused

Askan,

“good people must step up to defend and support worthy organizations be it the Agudah or anything else and silence the critics.”

Don’t be so sensitive. Agudah does many good things, but they are not immune from criticism. I can think of at least 3 items where we can agree to disagree.

1. Their opposition on requiring fingerprint backchecks for private school employees ( required for public schools ) 2. Their opposition to prayers for the IDF (included only in the Rabbinical Council edition of Artscroll ) 3. Their position on the Markey bill.

Disagreeing with Agudah does not constutute bashing.

The Editor asks why bash Aguda, so feif bashes Torah Umersora with false claims instead? I guess he doesn’t like any Torah organizations. The Aguda is spot on in opposing the Markey/Tort Lawyer Emplyment bill, that will enable crooked lawyers to sue based on false claims of 50 years ago any organization they feel has enough money to be sued for. It is good that that bill is opposed.

chaverim, the fact is that these organizations run the same way. They used to stand for something, but now they just care about money and influence. You say I only attacked Torah Umesorah – what about my statement re: Bloomberg? Do you have no opinion on that?

artchill was right: since R’ Sherer zt”l passed away, the Agudah has gone downhill. The inmates are running the asylum.

“?2] The division heads are completely disrespectful of member communications. Despite numerous ?attempts to call and e-mail three high ranking Agudath Israel employees in the most respectful ?manner, they do not respond.?”

I nominate you as their official customer service department

Chaverim and Squeak, if you would like to debate anything I said, consider this a warm invitation to do so. But to sit on the sidelines and make half-sentence pronouncements without one iota of backing behind them, is totally counterproductive.

Squeak, if you dislike YU, kindly begin by comparing the seder hayom at YU vs Touro, and show me the radical differences that make one kosher and the other not. I am not saying that all courses at YU are 100% proper, but neither are they at any secular college which you don’t seem to have any problem with. YU has many non-Jewish professors. A college tries to get the best in each field. Now if one has a choice between a frum professor who is mediocre and doesn’t know his field well and a non-Jew who happens to be on top of his field, which do you think a college will choose. Yes, the non-Jewish professor may have some opinions which run counter to Torah. The definition of a college is freedom of expression. No professor of any stature will stand for having his words censored. However, the eitza is that the students should be sufficiently grounded in Torah and secular knowledge and would know how to refute and debate the professor based on the most advanced knowledge available i.e., on the professor’s home turf, not by quoting religious slogans. If what the student is saying is emes, he should be able to prove his point any number of ways. You simply can’t run a top-quality college any other way. Freedom of research and freedom of ideas is crucial. BTW, I believe that if any student feels that a given course at YU goes against halacha or his religious beliefs he can get out of it, and write a paper instead, on a topic of interest.

There is plenty more we can discuss, but unless you are seriously willing to debate, rather than throwing out one or two word comments from the sidelines, I will assume shtika k’hodaa.

PY:

Not to stick in here (and not that I know anything about either school), but it seems your comment of

“The definition of a college is freedom of expression. No professor of any stature will stand for having his words censored.”

states the difference between a Touro, which is willing to sacrifice? its rating for more “pro-frum” teachers, vs. YU which will sacrifice its “frumness” to get better professors and a “top notch” school.

Once again, just making a comment, I know nothing about either school.

gavra, do you think Touro has such great teachers? I graduated from Touro in Brooklyn. I had a professor who was as liberal as they come. He favored gay marriage, said that Dinkins was the best mayor NYC ever had because he didn’t pick on blacks, said that newspapers could write whatever they want with whatever bias they want because of free speech, etc.

I know someone who started attending Touro’s new Social Work graduate program. They were told they’d have to accept gay marriage, and even encourage people to accept their homosexuality. When they asked if they could refer gay clients away, they were told they’d never make it as a social worker.

Like you said, you know nothing about either school.

Feif Un & PY:

Once again, I know nothing about either school. I agree that to leave the control of the school “under the control of religious authorities” would sacrifice “knowledge”. I believe that is what Touro wants, and remain a “lower tier” school, with a “lousy reputation”, but is good enough to get by in most cases. Think of it as a Bid’eved, so they only do it half-heartedly, and try to avoid any “problems”.

Feif Un: I agree, just commenting on how PY seems to define the school, not what it actually is. Its also (just as per PY) a matter of hashkafa, if the college is lechatchila or bid’aved.

BS”D

For the historical record, the Rebbe Rashab pulled Chabad out of Agudas Yisroel. I do not know the historical reasons for this or whether the Aguda of then had any resemblance to the Aguda back then.

Jothar, regarding your valid questions about college, I don’t believe most YU students encounter any problems in their day to day classes. You are not going to hear any apikursis in accounting, or business law, or math, or the vast majority of courses.

I have heard that they require Bible courses and I don’t know exactly what goes on there. I would think and hope that if Biblical criticism is mentioned, that the teacher uses it to defend the Torah against apikursim, but I do not have knowledge of the subject matter or course structure.

I seem to remember some issues with improper art in required art classes either because of looking at places of worship of other religions, or improperly clothed women, and I believe one was allowed to be exempted and write a paper instead.

But these are beside the point. While time is short, briefly, the main objection was to any college period. Many gedolim were against all secular knowledge. This is true to day in EY where even high school is off limits to chareidim, and schools like Maarava which is an American style high school ran into tremendous opposition, and had to agree to go outside Yerushalayim. In America, the Mir doesn’t allow college at all, and ends seder at 8 pm to make it impossible. (I love Reb Shmuel Berenbaum ZTL, and he was at my chasuna. Nevertheless, I do not subsribe to that worldview.) My point is that gedolim shried eish lehava against college. They always stressed full time learning and bitachon for parnasa. While one might have thought they would be maskim to YU, many were not, and since just about nobody would be able to find fault with a school which is separate, shomer shabbos, kosher food and half a day learning, and seemed to be a great way to get around all the problems of college, they went overboard to try to find any fault possible and constantly put it down so nobody would go. But again, the reason was because they held it was bitul Torah.

However, today, people have become so confused about things, because of all the harsh words, that there are many yeshivishe people who actually believe YU is worse than a goyishe college. Anybody who believes so really needs a checkup. The gedolim of the previous generation of course knew that YU was far better than any goyishe college, and if one was going to go full time (not just to night school) that was the best place without any shaila. However, because of all the loshon hora, todays generation of kannaim, many of whom don’t know miyminom lsmolam except how to scream, have invented this total mishigas that YU is worse than a goyishe college campus.

While there may be problems with certain courses, that is not why gedolim opposed it. They did it because they opposed any secular studies, period. Had they not fought against it, but instead sat down with the hanhala and said we understand you are tyring to make a frum place where one can learn and make a parnasa as well, and we will totally support you, except we have issues XYZ with courses ABC, there would have easily been compromises made and we would have achdus in the klal. But they didn’t want to hear of secular studies at all. Read Reb Moshe about college (atzas reshaim)medical school (no mitzvah), and even studying secular studies during bein hazmanim, etc. Read about Reb Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld who would not allow it. Do a search on Rav Tzvei and Touro, and you will find a long essay where he screams against Touro for either men or women! The European Roshei Yeshiva simply felt there was no heter not to learn full time; and also possibly in Europe, college was mainly philosophy, not for parnasa. Rav Volbe writes in Alei Shur vol. 1 that theoretically Torah and Mada is a good idea for an institution, but we don’t have a mesorah or leaders who went that route who can guide us on how to do it and build such an institution where everything is totally OK. Whatever the case may be, I firmly believe that any of the emesdig gedolim and poskim if asked whether to go to a secular campus which is mixed and has far worse problems or to YU would never in a moment say a secular college is better. It is only the terrible sinas chinam which is caused by screaming and hysterics and people who don’t understand, but just jump on a bandwagon of excitement of a good fight who would ever be crazy enough to say YU is worse than a secular college. It goes against any drop of sechel. Whatever problems exist at YU will exist 1,000 fold on a goyishe campus.

I don’t have all the answers on how to run a college at the highest Torah levels and the highest academic levels simultaneously, but if people wanted to, I am sure they would find a way. Instead, because fighting and bad feelings have gotten involved (what else is new) the two sides are not speaking. Agudah could have sat down and worked with the YU administration many years ago. Did this ever happen? No, they just blacklisted and banned.

Bizman hazeh, just about everybody sees that the economic matzav and the increasingly high tech world necessitates a college education, unless one wants to become a mechanech or a Rov, and has the ability to do so. It would be nice if the Agudah would say, yes, you were right years ago in trying to establish a top-notch place in both Torah and Mada to the best of your ability, even if it wasn’t perfect, and you weren’t out “to destroy and uproot Torah and Yiddishkeit” and all the other hysterics. It is because of this fighting that the frum world has split into two camps, the modern and frum. Doesn’t YU deserve any credit for the fact that it is not mixed (a huge expense of duplication of buildings and resources), and serves kosher and no problems with Shabbos and Yontof and a half day learning and a full Beis Medrash every night and minyanim 3 times a day? It is a pathology of kannaim that repeats itself over and over of only being able to see the flaws, and not the tremendous good in something.

PY, when I was in YU (for one year), I didn’t learn any kefira. We didn’t learn biblical criticism. There may have been classes that you could sign up for, but I don’t know. They have Judaic studies requirements (in Stern its 3 classes a semester). You get to choose what you take, but you do have to take a certain amount of tanach and some other requirements. The class I took in Vayikra was just a standard class with meforshim, nothing that was a problem according to anyone’s standards (except Satmar). There were gemara classes offered for women, but they were optional. Most women did not take them.

As for art classes, the art classes I am aware of given at Stern were the kosher ones. Anything that was not, was given at Pratt and taken at your own discresion. I don’t think there are any majors that require Art History unless you are majoring in art (in which case, enter at your own risk).

Pashuteh Yid – Zionism = Murder. For more details read perfidy and the gaurdian of Jerusalem. Y.U gets goverment money so they allow Gays and all other toeiva’s under the Sun.

To Obamanaz v’Pashuteh Yid:

“Amolege tzeiten”, G’dolim were well versed in all aspects of the sciences and music and philosophy and even literature; granted though it may not have been learned through formal education. In more recent times, we have had G’dolim and have G’dolei Torah who have studied in universities in Europe and also in the United States, including Yeshivas Rav Yitzchok Elchonon (YU).

Just as there is no one Rav for everyone, so is there no one yeshiva or one derech of learning for everyone. Someone who may shteig in learning in one yeshiva may not have the same hatzlacha in another.

So let’s stop with all the loshon harah about various yeshivas and g’dolim.

From your logic, any yeshiva or tzadaka or individual who seeks and receives government funding or advocates for politicians with pro gay shitas is also endorsing the government’s shita regarding gays.

It’s a fact that YU is a cash cow for Yeshivas Rav Yitzchok Elchonon and the high school which have deficits totaling $millions each year. So if you want Yeshivas Rav Yitzchok Elchonon, which of course does not advocate gay or toeiva, to refuse funding from YU, then you need to hold all yeshivas and tzadakas and individuals to the same standard and they have to refuse funding from sources who do advocate these abominable lifestyles and behaviors.

Pashuteh Yid:

I have heard that they require Bible courses and I don’t know exactly what goes on there. I would think and hope that if Biblical criticism is mentioned, that the teacher uses it to defend the Torah against apikursim, but I do not have knowledge of the subject matter or course structure.

Indeed nothing could be further from the truth. The professors are promulgating the apikursus to the best of their ability.

My point is that gedolim shried eish lehava against college. They always stressed full time learning and bitachon for parnasa.

Here is where your perspective comes across as very narrow. Replace “gedolim” with “Litvishe Roshei Yeshivos” and you are more accurate (of course, kal vachomer Chassidim). Plenty of Gedolim have themselves matriculated and even graduated from college.

While one might have thought they would be maskim to YU, many were not, and since just about nobody would be able to find fault with a school which is separate, shomer shabbos, kosher food and half a day learning, and seemed to be a great way to get around all the problems of college, they went overboard to try to find any fault possible and constantly put it down so nobody would go.

Strike two. This is ridiculous, and shows that you don’t understand the inherent problems related to the YU hashkafa. Perhaps you could apply this statement to Touro, instead. But YU is an abomination of truth and a denial of the dominance of the Torah. Why couldn’t I find fault in a school that is separate, shomer shabbos, has kosher food, learns half a day, but teaches that science and human thought is on par with the Torah (CH”V) and therefore allows all types of abominations to take place within its walls? Anyone could.

However, today, people have become so confused about things, because of all the harsh words, that there are many yeshivishe people who actually believe YU is worse than a goyishe college.

You sir, are the one who is confused. You know only one side. Let me make it clear: YU IS worse than a goyishe college. It is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And they don’t bother to button the clothing, either. While we are on the subject of discussing how it could be preferrable to go to a goyishe college than to a Jewish one, let me mention that I have heard personally from R’ Nosson Tzvi Finkel (Mir Yerushalayim) that he will not grant a talmid yeshiva credits if he is going to Touro. Shocked? Let that be an indication of the limits of your understanding. Admittedly this episode was a while ago, but I have not heard that he changed his mind. And this was about Touro – which is completely aside to this conversation as Touro does not have “Torah U’Madda” as its mantra – YU would be worse.

I don’t think there is more to be gained by drilling into the rest of your post word by word, so I’ll conclude here. YU is founded in an ideology that is, at best, a twisted version of the Hirschian Torah Im Derech Eretz. Torah U’Madda is not a Torahdik hashkafa.

A word about RIETS: Many learned and choshuva Jewish laymen and leaders are graduates of this institution. I cannot ever disparage a person who went through YU (and certainly not RIETS). What I have said applies to the University and the philosphy.

Feif Un, you are fighting a losing battle. Not because you are wrong, but because there are plenty of hard-headed people out there that refuse see the forest through the trees.

Its unfortunate, but it is one reason why there is so much sinat chinam amongst Jews. [And that goes in both directions, YU/MO is not blameless either, but in my experience the harshest reactions come from the Yeshivish side towards the MO side]

BS”D

How would anyone feel if I said Mr Mendlowitz was among the first to restore traditional Judaism in the US…..

Lakewood’s gashmius philosophy over the past forty years has very little in common with what Rav Aharon Kotler espoused.

One example: Rav Aharon very strongly advised and encouraged his talmidim to seek and marry girls from poor families; reason being that they would have lower expectations for material items and thus their husbands could devote more time and energy to their true task…learning.

cherrybim: I am deeply troubled with your chutzpa in calling BMG being a “gashmius philosophy.” Perhaps you ought to set the matter straight with HaRav Malkiel Kotler Shlitta and HaRav Matisyahu Salomon shlitta on their lack of oversight (sic)? You say it has been as such “over the past forty years”, so apparently you feel Rav Schnier Kotler ZT’L is also guilty (sic) of not preventing this?

squeak: you say Lakewood is the epitome of Torah. I disagree. Lakewood teaches people that it’s ok not to fulfill what it says in your kesubah. It teaches people that it’s ok to make your wife work 2 jobs so that you can sit and learn. That you can look down on people who aren’t doing that, and tell them they’re second best.

That’s not the epitome of Torah.

YU does not teach that science is equal to Torah. They may teach that science, mathematics, and other subjects are a part of Torah, which they are – they are needed to understand many sugyos in Shas. So yes, people need to understand them in order to understand Torah better. The Gemara says a person is obligated to teach his son a trade. YU teaches a trade, so if a father sends his son there, he is doing his job. As I said, you know nothing about it, only what you’ve been told by others who know nothing about it.

chaverim: I would be the laughingstock of Lakewood kollel guys, not the entire Jewish world. More people than you care to admit agree with what I said. As for my defending YU, it’s not because it has basis in fact, it’s because I don’t care to see many Rabbonim insulted and slandered by the likes of people here. Squeak should be calling these Rabbonim and begging their forgiveness.

The fact is, if you walk into the YU Beis Medrash any night, you’ll see hundreds if not thousands of guys sitting and learning. How would you explain that?