Mussar

Teen, can you please give an example of your beliefs that you want others to adopt, and why it is that you believe others should adopt them?

teen-no one can make a person believe in anything, or be more religious if they don’t want to. They can plead, and coax, and threaten, and teach and beg etc. but ultimately no one can make you do or believe what you don’t want to.

Parents have a deep desire to see their children succeed, and ultimately go to greater places than they reached. That is the underlying ultimate desire of balanced parenting. Not all parents know how to implement that feeling with their children. Some come across in a way that will push the child away.

I hope you will find someone in your life that will help get you to the places your neshama wants you to go. You just have to want it and it may take a lot of time.

Teen, before I respond, please allow me to apologize in advance if something in here rubs you the wrong way. I hope that it doesn’t, though. I thought it through carefully and edited it, but I’m not Mr. “Emotional intelligence”- I’m more of an intellectual debater.

Teen, how do you define “good person”? Many liberals believe they are more compassionate that conservatives (and a lot of them are), and will defend men deserving of death from being killed due to compassion. Yet, much of abortion today is straight-up infanticide according to all rational thinking- killing innocent babies who were born already because they inconvenience the mother. This is good? This is murder of the most innocent humans on earth- little babies, while the same people will defend terrorists and murderers. They believe they are good, but clearly something is wrong.

We humans are not machines. We have emotions and desires that corrupt our thinking and prevent rational logical thought. You have already identified the source for your beliefs, one that I completely share with you- laziness, or ADD as you mentioned in another post. When I was in 6th grade, davening mussaf shemona hesrei on Yom Kippur, the thought “who said Hashem really exists?” crept into my head at this time. Throughout, high school, I was always bothered by such questions like “Why did the rabbanan makes our lives so hard? Isn’t the Torah good enough?” and other such questions. I realize now that while I needed to deal with the questions, the source was laziness- it’s easier to be non-frum than frum. Once I dealt with the questions as best I could, it was easier overcoming my nature. I still struggle with it, but it’s part of being human.

Being non-frum is the path of least resistance. However, the Torah says that one who does not do the mitzvos will get punished (2nd paragraph of Krias shma). Once you are a believer, then the 2nd paragraph of shma spells it out. Hashem determines who is a good person, and HE determined that a good person is one who does the Mitzvos. As the first paragraph of mesilas yesharim says, Hashem created the world to bestow kindness upon us. However, this kindness can only be fully achieved in olam haba. The way to earn it is through torah and mitzvos. If you would tell you parents “Why do I need to work? I’ll just sit around and be a good person”, the answer is that without work, you can’t feed your head, and you can’t afford shelter, and you die. So if you want to know why you have to do mitzvos, it’s because there is no such thing as being a good person without them.

That said, Hashem understands everyone’s nature. someone who suffers from innate laziness or ADD has a much harder time getting up for minyan than someone who doesn’t. Someone with ADD will never be the masmid that someone who doesn’t suffer will be. As long as that guy does his best, Hashem has no taanos, even if the “velt” doesn’t understand.

As for your parents’ input into your life, they understand this. When I make sure my kid doesn’t play with fire or doesn’t cross the street on his own, he chafes at these restrictions. Why can’t he determine his own life? The answer is that he doesn’t fully comprehend the consequences of his actions. If I let my kid do what he wants, he will end up really hurting himself. Should I abrogate my responsibilities as parent because it interferes with my child’s lifestyle?

Again, my apologies if any of this didn’t come across in the manner that i meant it to be understood in.

Teen, my holy brother,

I couldn’t agree with you more.

your not supposed to give mussar when you know that the person will not listen to you

perhaps it should also apply (depending on circumstance)to parents who keep trying to make their children as religious as they are but the kid repeatedly shows that he is not interested.

You are probebly correct in your assessment that that parents actually push their kids further off by trying to “push their beliefs on them”.

Regarding the rights parents have when towards children who might have different beliefs, that would probably depend on the particular belief system of eatch individual. You see, rights are very intertwined with belief. Their are different rights that exist for instance legal rights, human rights, moral rights to name a few but besides for legal rights all other rights are determined by your particular belief system. If as I understand, your parents are religious jews their idea of rights are determined by their belief in the Torah & the Torah defines the rights of Jews.

So if you ask w”hy do they have the right to try to make me believe what they believe…they dont believe what i beleive do they? why cant i make them believe what i beleive? shouldnt everyone be allowed to believe what they want just as much as my parents can believe in judiasm? ” the answer is perhaps they have the right according to their belief system but perhaps according to your belief system they do not. It gets tricky with parents particularly at 17, legally they have the right to “try to make you believe what they believe” Morally they have the right to try and make you believe what they believe.

I actually noticed in your response to tzipi that you ” actually do believe in judiasm very strongly” it’s just that your “just not interested in doing it…laziness i guess”

well as a parent myself I know that it is not only a right but rather an obligation for me as a parent to help my children with their beliefs and not let their laziness or other shortcomings destroy their future. Parents will be the ones to blame should you grow up and get a clearer outlook on your heritage. You will be the firs to stand up & say Dad,Mom where were you when I was faltering,how did you allow me to be taken in by my laziness and shortcomings in not following what I believed and now know even stronger that I was young and foolish to through it away. As a parent I would dread to have my child make these accusations against me, far more than I would their veering from my beliefs after I did everything in my power to guide them.

Lets put aside religion & stuff for a moment.

Picture choosing your ideal life, however you want to live it. I would assume, no matter the lifestyle you choose you have the human need to be successful in your life.

You may pursue a career by attending university or reach your successes on your good graces. In any case as the years go in your ideal life. You will probably get married and build a family as the majority of Americans do. Now picture yourself in your ideal home in your ideal neighborhood with your child or children attending the ideal schools along with the other kids in your ideal community. Now as you climbed the ladder of success you also developed strong beliefs and are very aware of your rights and the rights of society according to your beliefs. Naturally you most of your intimate friends and acquaintances have common beliefs and ideas. It is in this ideal life of yours that you and your spouse are raising your children. In your love for your children you and your wife agree to do everything to give your children the ideal life that you have achieved so they to can experience the rewards & fulfillment of the ideal life.

In order to assure your children’s success,you exert all sorts of efforts to see that they have as easy a time as possible in reaching the ideal life. Now remember besides for your kids success being part of your “ideal life’ you want them to have the best life they can possibly have for their own sake.

Nice picture, right? Now, one nice summer in ideal land, perhaps you and your loved one are having the ideal vacation. You receive a call from your child and as you both pick up a phone line so you can tell your child how much you love & miss him, he says … you know Dad & Mom, I have been doing a lot of thinking and I have come to the conclusion that your beliefs are not mine. I am not sure if it’s that I don’t believe in your “ideal life belief” totally. I actuality greatly believe in it and admire many things about it.. maybe it’s just that I am lazy or it’s to hard. In any case I would like you to kind of leave me be I won’t be doing anything drastic drugs, or even smoking etc. you wont have to bail me out of prison. But I just kinda will do my own thing and decide on my own what I will & won’t do. I do love you both and you really gave me a great life taking care of all my needs from when I was a baby and all you have done for me in so many different ways & I thank you for that… , but now I’m the ones that will make the rules as far as I’m concerned around here. I just wanted you both to know this before you come home so when you get back you won’t be taken aback buy my “new look” and some new friends I hang with. If you see some unfamiliar food in the fridge, don’t through it out it’s mine, & don’t set the table for me on your ideal dinner night as I’ll be out. Oh I almost forgot don’t send tuition checks to the ideal school, I am dropping out. Also the neighbors kind of look at me like I’m below them or something you know not “ideal”. Just tell them bout my decision when you get back. Thanks-a-lot and I Luv Ya!

Ok Teen your the Dad,… how do you feel now? … how do you console your hysterical wife? what do you say to your friends and neighbors when you get back?… how do you respond to this call?… and what rights do you have?

Remember two things

G-d Loves you & what goes around comes around.

Hope you enjoyed the ride.

You’ll be great!I mean it!

Teen I thought u said ur parents don’t know? And why’s it hipocritical? They’re ur parents they can do what they want (this might make u not so happy but-) and u should WANT to do what ur parents want and make them happy. I love making my parents proud of me its such a good feeling, why would I want to hurt them?

Hi, Teen. You believe in Judaism, but your parents have not convinced you to follow a fully halachic lifestyle.

It’s just an observation, but it seems to me that it would be fair for you to read books written to address your outlook. Any book by Rabbi Akiva Tatz comes to mind:

# Living Inspired (Targum Press, 1993)

# Worldmask (Targum Press, 1995)

# Letters to a Buddhist Jew (Targum Press, 2004)

# Anatomy of a Search (1987) – Autobiography on how Rabbi Tatz became a baal teshuva.

# The Thinking Jewish Teenager’s Guide to Life (1999)

There are other good books out there, too, that discuss mitzvah observance and that are inspirational and enlightening. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, a”h, is another example of a prolific and enlightening author. I hope other people on the forum here post their own suggestions for similar reading material. They may inspire you – how ’bout it?

P.S. There are also all sorts of shiurim online. Such as here: http://torahanytime.com/index.php?section=rabbis . You may find some relevant shiurim that cater to your interest.

Teen,

I know the freedom sounds glamorous. Making all your own decisions! Let me give you a little life lesson.

So you leave your parents house and now you need a job to support yourself and a place to live. Who is going to rent you an apartment? You (presumably) dont have first and last months rent PLUS security up front. OK so you find someone nice and they let you move into a tiny basement apartment. But, there are rules there too (like no painting the walls or no loud music etc). So, restrictions.

Then you look for a job – as a high school graduate (or not even that), what do you qualify for? Flipping burgers at McDonalds? And with this economy, you are competing wtih College Grads for that job. But ok, you get the job. Now, your boss wants you there at 7 am sharp – no excuses. You need to tuck your shirt in – no excuses. You need to wear these ugly uniforms and always make sure to say yes maam/sir. And if you forget to give a customer a reciept, they get the meal free and it comes out of YOUR salary. So, more restrictions.

There is no such thing as a life without restrictions. In the realworld, there is always a boss telling you what to do. At least with Judaism, there is a clear guide to the rules :-/

(fyi, teen is a guy. so he probably wont want a husband. (i hope))

teen: sometimes ppl get mixed up when their parents or someone telling them what to do are telling them & setting examples for them which are not all good or all bad. they decide that since the parents or whoever are not behaving how they should in certain areas, everything else they are doing is wrong as well. so if you dont agree with how someone is dealing with a certain situation, & u dont think they are correct, at least try to remember that this does not mean that everything they do or tell you is something you want to stay away from. they may be doing very admirable things at the same time that u can learn from them even if u dont agree with everything they stand for.

did this come out clearly? like syriansephardi, i often have difficulty expressing my thoughts

I was reading through this thread and couldnt clearly transmit my feelings into words. But I’ll try. There was a time where I was also disinterested in yiddishkeit. It didnt actually affect my outside appearance. I am in yeshiva still. I was in yeshiva then and I sort of pushed through it. I was always in the yeshiva setting and couldnt relate to this obsession in learning. From a young age it was evident that I was beyond my years and was successful at it. My parents pushed me to learn alot. I had pressure from many directions. Dont misunderstand me, I think mitzvos are unbelievable, they are true good. If you think deeply into the humann physce, the mitzvos are truly in sync with them. THey mold you into the most ideal man. Foget the obvious ones of kibbud av v’em and tzaar balei chayim. But even the mitzvos relating to the korban pesach are there for a sense of grandeur, of beauty. The mitzvos of emunah give you a sense of relaxation, of knowledge that there is “someone” looking out for you that cares

for you. There is a vort on parshas bishalach I would like to share with everyone which has made an impact on my life. When the jews were in the midbar and did not have water they were complaining about dying there. They came to the oasis of salty bitter water. What did they do at that point? Moshe upon instruction from hashem threw in a bitter piece of wood and what happened? The water became sweet! Wonder of wonders! Let me continue on in this story… Hashem gives us a few mitzvos at this location and the possek continues if you listen to these mitzvos you will never get sick like the egyptions. Besause I am your healer. There are a number of glaring questions and lessons we can discuss here. For one: Why at this point did hashem feel it was time to give them mitzvos? Two: In reference to the doctor quote, if hashem is telling us that we wont get sick why do we need a doctor? There are various explanations, and using them I would like to take out a few lessons. Rashi explains that Hashem is telling us

that you wont get sick if you keep the mitzvos and secondly if you do get sick ie. you dont keep the mitzvos which causes you to get sick I am always here for you as your doctor to heal you. Beautiful words! But I’ll continue. When I first read this rashi it got me a little frustrated: hashem is threatening us to keep us in line! Come on! The ramban explains that it cant be further from the truth. He explains that specifically at this moment that all the jews saw that something bitter made something bitter. How can that be? Hashem knows and did it. So too there are mitzvos, like Im commanding you now at this pinnacle, that may seem bitter but they are really sweet. To bring this a little more down to earth, there are some mitzvos that are obvious the 6 mitzvos bnei noach plus a few more give or take that are easy to understand grab onto that enthusiasm and carry it over to those moments that are “bitter” which appear bitter but are really sweet. You can use the anomaly for your parents too. I dont remember

focused on it before but a parent who tells there kid not do go into the street it is obvious he cares for the best in the child. So in the next scenario he may have a funny way of expressing his caring but you see from the first time how much he cares but more than just cares, KNOWS whats good for the child. THere are times in your life teen, tha t you appreciate your parents will, there are other times where its a little harder. But try to carry over that enthusiasm. They may seem disconnected to your reality. To who you are but really they are trying to impart their belief in you and how much good you can do. THe president barack obama screamed his will of change across america. The critics are screaming give us something of substance, something rooted in reality. He plods onwith the message “yes we can!!!!” he may seam misconnected. I choose to focus on his enthusiasm. He knows he can make a difference. He isnt set back by “reality” so he will be able to break through reality. Teen times are tough, you

are disintersted. I can understand that I have my ups and downs too. But I try to plod on hashem is my healer, my doctor, my coach there with me as long as I want to grab on. He will heal you if you do the right thing. I am very lazy. I have no attention span. Just ask my chavrusah..lol But obama’s echoed message of hope of yes I can tells me to plod on. But we have more than obama. We have hasme on our side. In the way we choose hashem helps us. THat gives me the courage to push through the much and “reality”. THats enough for now. I probably lost everyones interest a while ago. I’ll continue some other time. I wish you well on your day to day. day by day push.

Ohh!!!! Thanx ames!!!

syriansephardi: i’m insulted, how many times do i have to say I’M A GUY.$(maybe i should start a thread for this)

also, you said…

Teen I thought u said ur parents don’t know? And why’s it hipocritical? They’re ur parents they can do what they want (this might make u not so happy but-) and u should WANT to do what ur parents want and make them happy. I love making my parents proud of me its such a good feeling, why would I want to hurt them?

not always are teenagers able to, B”H you’re a good teenager.$

Teen: being that ur a guy, it it makes it easier for me to ask u- don’t u want a wife who loves u and respects u? Don’t u want her to be respectable and refined and not have been out there? Don’t u want her to be loyal to YOU? Don’t u want her to raise ur children in the ways of torah and be a great mother? Don’t u want her to be happy to see you wen u come home? And don’t u want your children to have the most respect for u and look up to u and want to be like u?? U want ur children to feel about u the way u feel about ur parents?? So how can u aquire all these berachot by rebelling?? Ur 17!! Its time to wake up!!!! Get ur life together!! Before u know it ur ready to get married, and you KNOW u want that eishet chayil, so WAKE UP!!!!! I just wish u would!!!

syriansephardi: apology accepted.$

Teen: you wrote “im very happy being where i am”.

Totally zero offense to you and I hope your privileged that I’m posting here because I don’t usually post these days, but I simply can’t believe your above statement.

It is simply not possible for you to be happy with life if your not living like a true Torah Jew I have very simply and clear- cut proofs for this. Take a celebrity that has everything in Olam Hazeh one could wish for- Elvis Presley. Money, fame he had more than anyone could ever dream for but he was so depressed he was on approx 200-250 anti- deppresents per DAY! Tell me how does that make sense? According to all logic he should be the happiest man in the world he had everything a man could wish for down here???

The answer is that one simply can’t be happy with temporary enjoyments like money or fame. Every pleasure I repeat every single pleasure in this world is temporary and not really happiness because the world make a mistake between excitement and happiness. Going on a roller coaster will not make you happy- it’s exciting.

Excitement can never give you real happiness. When you get older you’ll realize this more and more that the only fulfilling happiness in to be a true Torah Jew and live a true Torah lifestyle. This is Hashem’s gift to us that we can really be happy as oppose to the nations of the earth that we live in that are constantly looking and searching for temporary excitements and pleasures.

Please realize this and take it into account.

Hatzlocho Rabba and remember I am totally not trying to diss you or mix into your personal life story, rather hoping I turned on alight for you.

noitallmr: wow thanx for that!!! as areivimzehlazeh said: POWERFUl!!!

asdfghjkl: my plesh…just doing my job 😉

Being a good, stable, righteous person takes a lot of self control, conviction and not worrying about what “everyone else” does. Drugs and smoking are a direct result of not too much self control and conviction… and yes- doing what everyone else does

(sorry- not expressing myself to well today. Good luck reading and understanding)

well i guess it depends on what his definition of a good person is. i think he believes something along the lines of “no murder, no rape, and no theft.”

i, on the other hand, have a much higher standard of “being a good person.” but i can’t say i’ve never done drugs. sure, i have less self-control than a lot of other people. that’s one area i gotta work on. does that make me bad? i hope not.

so does all this make teen a better person in essence? maybe he is. maybe he’s not. we’ll never know. (unless one of us actually DOES commit murder…)

moish- I don’t get your point. Who’s comparing you and teen? None of us mortals can ever judge who is better in Hashem’s book. We need to do our personal best

Teen: cmon 🙁

i dont think any of us can say one person is better than the other person. only G-d can see each whole person and their situation and their efforts. of course ppl do, but i dont think its right for anyone to judge anyone else. you can say, he has a certain quality i look up to & want to emulate, but not “he is better, she is worse than anyone else”

Teen, what do you think the source of being a “good person” is? The Torah Hakedoshah!

The source of all morals, even those we possess “naturally,” is the Torah. Chazal tell us that Histakel B’Oraisa V’Bara Alma. This means that Hashem based the world (nature) on the Torah. That is the only reason we have natural morals. So if all our morals of being a good person are based on the Torah, we should follow all (that we can) of the morals the Torah sets forth for us. This sounds demanding, but only Hashem understands you’re exact situation, and only He will be able to judge you.

Regarding parents: Theoretically, they all want the best for you. Some parents are missing basic parenting skills and I don’t know you or your parents (I think :)). What you said about pushing beliefs being counterproductive may be true, but every child must be dealt with differently. Some children may respond properly to this treatment but I disagree that it is always counterproductive. I do agree that parents must know who to push and how much to push, how to push, and who not to push at all. Unfortunately,not all parents understand this and push their children off further.

I give you and your parents a brocha that you should learn to understand each other and love Yiddishkeit.