Kosher Hangouts

I think the larger problem is that there is a need to “hang out”. Hanging out implies, nothing else to do. We should find things for these teens to do. I dont claim to have the answer (or any answer, for that matter), but I dont think it would be a bad idea to understand why there is a need to “hang out” to begin with.

while i think your idea of kosher hangouts is a good one, i don’t think it is THE solution. i don’t think that the younger generation has had it with yiddishkeit because there aren’t enough hangouts (although this is a start).

quite simply, kids today aren’t stupid. they understand so much more than we give them credit for. and they can sense the hypocrisy that pervades the lives of many of those who are supposed to be their role models. what should kids think when supposedly ehrliche people are committing crimes, being hauled off to prison, etc.? when people are more concerned about the color of a boy’s shirt than what is in his head or in his heart? when our first reaction to anything is not ‘what is the right thing to do’ or ‘what would hashem want’ but rather ‘what will everyone else think?’ or ‘how will this effect this or that shidduch’?

let’s face it. our ‘yeshiva world’ has become so much like the greater society around us – we are so much more concerned with images, appearances, and reputations than we are about truth, reality, and sincerity. its really no wonder that we judge so much about a person now by the way he dresses, the color of his shirt, the length of a skirt, sleeves, etc., just as our society judges one another by similarly superficial characteristics. is this what yiddishkeit is all about?

our kids see right through this charade. they realize that most of us do not REALLY practice what we preach. we go through so many of the motions and dress, talk, and act a certain way in order to ensure that no one in our society will look at us any differently. they realize that so often our actions are dictated not by the ratzon hashem, but by the ratzon of those around us.

our kids aren’t dumb. they realize what yiddishkeit means (and doesn’t mean) to their parents and their communities. and they are sickened by the thought of perpetuating such a perverted and hypocritical system. can you blame them?

Can’t be done. It can lead to mixed dancing.

Yasher Koach Zalmy for your insight into the denial downside of the frum world. Young people are certainly being turned off because of the hypocrisy and the garbage that is paraded as being Torah values. However I disagree with your assesment of co-ed activities. My rebbe, Harav Hagadol Shloime Twerski, zt’l, a chassidic rabbi, from the Hornistieple, Chernoble and Bobov families (and elder brother of Rabbi Dr Abraham Twerski)was very much in favor of supervised co-educational socialization. He said, and I quote, “We keep young men and women away from each other and then suddenly expect them to have succesful marriages when they haven’t any idea of what the other is like”.

muchcommonsense – I grew up in an all female household. My father died when I was 6. If I had not interacted with boys I would have had no understanding of who/what the gender is about!

Yes, thousands of couples are happy without spending time with each other before marriage. Thousands of couples are also divorced.

When I got married I knew my husband very well. We had known each other for 3 years by the time we got married. We had been friends for 9 months, dated for 1.5 years and were engaged for 9 months. Marriage is work, but we understood how we would have to adapt. I’m not saying marriage is always easy, but the adaptation is easier if you know what you are getting into. I knew my husband’s flaws before we got married and he knew mine (at least most of them). We chose to accept each other and make it work. Compromise is key.

Why would you want to marry an almost stranger?? I know plenty of girls who hate dating because its so awkward for them and after so many years of being told “dont talk to boys” find it almost like doing something wrong. THERE IS NOTHING INHERENTLY WRONG WITH COED SITUATIONS. Its all a matter of how the kids conduct themselves, and I hope to raise my son to know how to conduct himself and avoid temptation.

I had much the same upbringing as SJSinNYC, excpet that I went to modern schools. The boys and girls in my neighborhod socialized together in our homes. Whether it was a Friday night oneg with some learning and then socializing, or Shabbat afternoons doing playing board games and being around togehter, we socialized in our homes under parental supervision. Nothign inapppropriate ever happened. We all grew up and, for the most part, married and have stable families. It wasn’t until high school, when I went to a yeshiva that the sneaking around started. Friends in my class had to be very careful not to be seen in public with their girlfriends, lest they be expelled from school. The solution was to frequent “treif” establishments where no one knew us, and no one cared what we did. A group of kids getting together on a Friday night to learn or hear a talk about Jewish life in Communist Romania (my uncle gave it many times) or meet in the local pizza parlor, devolved into sneaking out to a far off pool hall or night club with some of learning “their” ways. Being cool was no longer being affable and liked in a very benign kosher setting. Rather being cool became knowing how to inhale a cigarette without coughing, being able to hold one’s liquor, and the ultimate prize; doing things with the girls we would have never done in our parent’s living rooms. The net result of all the sneaking around was one teen pregnancy (and this was the 1980’s when such things didn’t happen in white middle class America, at least not in out midwestern suburbs, let alone in the Jewish community) and alot of confused kids. Mayim genuvim yimtaku is an absolute truism; especially as applied to teens. It has to be as much a part of our approach to tzniyut as everything else.

SJsinNYC- my point is not that we should not be in the same town as boys, of course we can smile to neighbors, speak to relatives, but spending time together- as a FRIEND- that does not bring any good in most situations. Note that Im not saying it’s wrong- because everyone has to know what is right/wrong for them.

Besides, I dont know how many years ago you got married, but in today’s world- it’s pretty bad out there between girls and boys. Many of them are just there to flirt, and flirt they do…It’s just not right to spend time with a boy that’s just a friend- boys are not supposed to see or talk with girls for no reason other than for shidduch purposes(or any other time it’s necessary.)

BTW- we also have many divorces- c’mon- for a bunch of reasons other than not knowing each others before. Thats not the reason pple are divorced.

Chas Vechalila!! Ein Apatropis l’arayos!

Still all the fluff and not the real point. Why do they feel a need to “hang out” to begin with? They have nothing else to do with their lives but hang out?

zalmy. Thank you for your enlightening comments. I attempted to assert the same in the post entitled “Do we really mean it” but I haven’t seen a very enthusiastic response to my query.

I don’t believe that “meeting in the middle” is the correct way to go about it.

We don’t believe in the ends justifying the means so we cannot do something against our ideals in order for the end product of bringing teens closer to yiddishkeit.

Besides, why do we need to show these teens that the only way to have fun is to do it in a not-such-kosher way?

The opposite! Organize bowling, roller skating, etc.. but show that you can have fun in a strictly kosher enviornment!

Re lesschumras: I think along different lines. Kula/chumra didn’t enter into it at all. 80 – 100 years ago, these picnics and outings and socializing resulted in wonderful shidduchim and choshuve doros. It was a matter of survival – you wanted to meet someone whom you knew was as committed as you. And the men were gentlemen, with very focused goals. The world now is different. It wouldn’t work, definitely not for teenagers. That’s all I meant.

Hangout??? Not a chance it won’t turn Treif. However many good thoughts are put in to the project and supervision even, eventually things will happen and you all know what I mean.

Instead of creating a hangout, establish a yeshiva with half day working towards a career or something positive to let teenagers have an outlet but to make an establishment to kill time??? Never!

Teenager,

You are right that you cannot expect 0 to 100 in one day but the people who are trying turn them “on” should not be the ones introducing co-ed etc. A silly example would be a student who is really misbehaved, so the teacher wants her to go from doing 10 pranks a day to doing only 5 and from talking non-stop to only talking every 10 minutes. Will the teacher plan pranks with her that are a bit more toned down then what she’s been doing until now? or will the teacher not help her with her pranks but turn a blind eye up to a certain point?

What I mean to say is that people might want to turn a blind eye to certain things that teenagers do and rather focus on worse things. However, we are not allowed to Encourage co-ed etc. That is the wrong way to go about it!

Teenager- With what is going on nowadays, it is very hard to make a kosher hang out for boys and girls. I went to a Jewish Concert at the racetrack in the country a couple of years ago, it was supposed to be like a Jewish Woodstock kind of thing. The mixed dancing was the least problem there was there, what was going on on the blankets and grass was worse! If you really would like to get some concrete help for yourself I would suggest that you get a private learning partner to learn with and ask questions. hanging out is hanging out…why waste your time, you have a mind you can develop yourself in ways that you never knew. Torah isn’t only about being stuck in the classroom and memorizing, I think this turns kids off. Kids are looking for warmth and love, if they don’t find it at school they turn to the boys and drugs and alcohol. These mixed social affairs are not accomplishing much, maybe I am wrong but this woodstock thing stands out in my mind. lots of luck to you.

Co-ed is about the worst thing that can be done. The problems that WILL occur are hideous.

Thank G-d, for now I’m not “in the parsha” of parenting teenagers. My oldest is only seven. But it seems to me that I’d rather know where my my kids are and that they be where I know they are safe and away from highly at risk behaviors (i.e. drugs, drinking, unprotected sexual activity etc.) and with whom they are asssociating. If that means I have to tolerate boys and girls (with equally concerned parents) spending time together in order to vouchsafe that my kids are socializing with other wholesome “safe” people their age, so be it. What’s worse/more dangerous, platonic co-ed activities, or a group ot frustrated shiftless boys on the prowl? I’d gladly risk my son kissing a girl at a supervised co-ed gathering over risk his getting in a car with a drunk boy driving it.

EXACTLY, Bored at work, you hit the nail on the head. For many teens, Judiasm is a yolk of boredom, rules, memorization and perfectionism. Everything seems to be shoved down their throats and they feel like they are a number, especially at the big high schools. They are very angry, and when they go off the derech, they don’t just go off a little but they go off all the way. and since they are innocent BY girls they are not educated about being street smart and the dangers of their actions. It is so sad that love of yiddishkiet is something that some teens have totally lost, and it saddens me to no end!

I think that while their are definitely issues with co-ed activities, it is first-of-all turned into way more of an issue then it really is, and that instead of just saying assur, it needs to be addressed publicly to 7th and 8th graders. by the time you are in high school, it is already too late.

while co-ed activites are not inherently evil (i know plenty of guys/girls who are good friends and are shomer etc.), unless it is monitered, the risks are large. That being said, however, people going around snapping pictures of teens hanging out together are simply driving them into greater secrecy, thereby indirectly encouraging them to hang out at places which are less desirable.

To the average teenager, judaism is filled with so many restrictions, and the ability to question and discuss is so severely limited, that co-ed activities becomes not just a regular social gathering, but rather a form of rebellion (just like non-jewish music, movies, and playing pool). I am not sure how to solve it, but i definetly think it needs to be adressed in a manner different from the way it is being talked about at this time

what do you guys think (i’m a teenager by the way)

Zalmy:

Your first post in this thread really hit the nail squarely on the head. It’s exactly what I have been saying for a number of years now. The only problem is, there is no potential to really fix anything when the Charedi community both refuses to admit that it may not always do things correctly, and insists on seeing everything as black-and-white, assur-or-muttar.

Maybe schools have to start having less hours and homework. I would come home from school after 5 pm and have tons of homework which I never did because who has patience for homework after a whole long day in school?!? The point of tons of homework is to “keep kids off the streets” but according to Teenager that seems to not be working.

Even kids who are not off the derech need to have fun. I was always very frum even in my very, very frum school, I was probably from the frumies but you know what?? I never liked school. I did not enjoy to study Chumash, Navi, etc. I also did not respect many of my “amazing” teachers and still don’t. (I had plenty excuse to go off the derech I think, but Torah is Emes so no excuse helps…) In any case, I don’t think these kinds of stuff is only for off the derech kids it’s for everyone. But really the underlying issues have to be addressed. If someone goes off the derech there is usually a reason behind it, not just that they want to hang out.

Tohighschoolguy, 7th and 8th grade is already too late. I was in the library and saw a preschool picture book about a froggy and his crush. Can’t remember the exact title but you get the point. Kids are being targeted at earlier and earlier ages. I just contrast Wendy Shalit’s two books – A Return to Modesty already raised the alarm, but you read it and think late teens and older; Girls Gone Mild is about tweens and even younger.

(And there was another book, I think by a Stephanie Levine, called something like Mystics, Mavericks and…something else with an M, about the empowerment of separation between the sexes, among other things.)

My point with bringing up these books is, that as Teenager mentioned, boys are touching, they are being conditioned to think that they can get away with a lot more, because the girls are letting them. You talk about getting to middle school kids. What kind of curriculum or what do you see is the most important message to keep them, let’s say, asexual as long as possible?