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We Chassidim believe that during the Mitzvah Tantz, the Shaarei Rachamim are open and one can daven for whatever they need. I recently heard ,that there are litvisher Rosh Yehsivos
who will refuse to be Misader Kedushin at a wedding if there will be a Mitzvah Tantz.
With all do respect, can someone please explain to me what Litvaks, Yekkes and Chabad have against MT?
to nameless..the biggest tzadikim of al generations had and have this minhuk and they call it minhuk koidesh so you dont even have to be meharer on it…now we think, maybe wrong dont mean to hack,on not chasidishe helige teire yidden..but by not chasidishe when the kalleh comes in, in middle with chason by men side and chasens friends are there is also not so pashute oisgehaltan,and the mechites parts ..and you get the rest…on the other hand mitzvah tantz is usually when guests went home and only close fam. stays..some are makpid to send unmarried bocherim home… also the chassidishe are more makpid during wedding b’noigayah tarivous in hall ,smorg,etc..than the not chassidishe. now we are not sayng this as hocking on them, but if we consider what this letter write mentions about the rosh hayeshivas ..we think its fair to say that its more oigehalten the mitzvah tantz then the minhuk of bringing kalleh with chasen in middle..now some will come ‘the gemmorah sais ‘katzad merakdin lifnaei hakaleh..’ keyuboth 17a etc, etc the chassidishe also know of this gemm.but who sais it means the unmarried bacharim..very few can say ‘dome ulaei kekeshirah..’ again please everybody we are not saying this out of hate , narrow minded…so the question is not ‘what the litvishe , washington heights, lubabitch teiereh yidden ,have against the mitzvah tantz but ….see above
FWIW, Reb Ahron Schecter holds the Choson & Kallah hold hands from the chupa to the yichud room (even though Reb Ahron doesn’t hold from the Mitzva Tantz.)
to ujm.. the letter writer did not addrdess this issue…most do some dont..and none would say wont be mesader if they hold, so whats your point?
I hate to break the news to the Chassidim here, but they are not the originators of the Mitzvah Tantz. The practice is mentioned in the Machzor Vitry. But the Chassidim are the ones who preserved the practice long after it was abandoned by other Ashkenazim. So I suppose it’s fair to say that it is now a Chasidic custom.
To answer your question , Nameless, From what i have heard, it’s because the CHosson and Kallah dance together holding hands,and one may not show “chiba berabim”. For this reason, most Litvish/yeshiva people do not hold hands coming off from the chupa, or coming in to dancing either. Another svara might be that since there are times when this would not be possible (chupas nidda) it may be worthwhile to abolish the custom for everyone so as not to shame the chosson and kallah or make it obvious.. (we have other cases where we have abolished a minhag so as not to embarrass people , such as reading from the Torah.)
Those that do do these things obviously have a reason to say why holding hands in public, which is normally inapproprate (assur) is fine then. About holding hands between the chuppa and yichud room, I have heard it is because there shouldn’t be a hefsek to both parts of the kiddushin.
To jent:
For once, I will take exception to what you wrote:
“..we think its fair to say that its more oigehalten the mitzvah tantz then the minhuk of bringing kalleh with chasen in middle”
I say this with utmost respect to you, but Why is the minhag which was practiced by the Litvishe communities in Lita less oisgehalten than the chassidish minhag??? As I see it, a minhag is not to be thrown away so easily. Many might not know this but in Lita (I know Telz for sure), they had the minhag of bringing the kallah in and having the bochurim and men dance before her. In any case, what was the point in even comparing the two minhagim?? Each one can stand alone on its own merits!
Nowadays, the whole concept of keeping men away from women in the Torah world has been increased, we are much more concerned with the mixing of the two than they were a few generations ago. Also, some may claim that the bachur of today is not on the madreiga of the bachur of yesteryear. So that is probably the reason why some Roshei Yeshiva of today are against the practice of having the Kallah come into the men. (I know of one very Choshuv Rosh Yeshiva who insists upon it by his children to uphold the minhag)
Also, I’m rereading your post, I don’t see how you even attempted to explain to nameless what the “problem” may be.
WOW !! there is an issue that I CAN agree wholeheartedly with nameles and jent 1150! In this week of Tisha Be-av, surely the geulah is near !
I totally suscribe to how jwent 1150 describes it. i have been at many,many mitzvah tenz and yo ucould literally see the kedusha in the hall. I get goosepimples even now ,remembering the Bobover Rav zz’l, the Visnitzer Rebbe zz’l and others. the saying of “mi shelo ro=oh simchas beis hashoevah bejomov…’ can readily be applied to these holy mitzvah tenz.
And, namelss, you are right in saying that your “bakoshos” can be answered at that moment. This is why we drink a lechayim with the rebbe shelita before he goes to the tanz.
However, I have never heard that there are Rabbomin taht will not be “mesader kiddushin”.And, as far as different minhagim, it is like the maamer chazal, “nehorei neohrei upashtei” The mitzvah tenz are primarily a galitzianer and hungarian minhag.
( I think that Ger does not do it either)
what should be wrong with it? and besides its for family not friends and no mingling is involved
if anything there should be something done about the kallah going into the men section during dancing because half the ladies section ends up in the men side.
rabbiofberlin- I get goosepimples when I see the Pritzus that goes on at a MT. Very nice when the Rebbes are there and all that but nowadays everyone who Halt Fun Zich a shtickl chassidish is making a Mitzvah Tantz and for a choson and kala to hold hands and dance in public and you not seeing a reason why its wrong is very interesting…
For those claiming a tzinius problem with the Mitzvah Tantz, you should be aware that many Litvishe Rabbonim (including, as mentioned above, Rav Aaron Schechter, RY Yeshivas Chaim Berlin) hold that the Choson/Kalla hold hands beween the Chupa and the Yichud room. So if it isn’t a problem there, you can’t say (when there are far less people — usually family — than at the Chupa) theres a tzinius problem at the Mitzvah Tantz.
well, noitallmr, I have been to dozens and dozens of mitzva tenz and i have NEVER seen any pritzus at a mitzva tanz. I don’t have a clue what you are talking about. You have to bring me some concrete examples,otherwsie I’ll just set your comments aside.
And ,can you explain to me what is wrong with chosson kallah holding hands and dancing the mitzvah tanz? Have you EVER been at a mitzbvah tanz and actually seen the tears in the eyes of the chosson and kallah ? It seems that we all see what one wants to see,maybe it has to do with our own machshovos..I see kedushah in the whole process and,obviosuly, hundreds of kedoshei yisroel and thousands of good jews feel the same way.
nameless. you are wrong about only chabad not holding hands after chupah. Where do you come from that you think that??
The entire litvish/yeshivish world does not hold hands. it is chiba berabim. see my earlier post.
rabbiofberlin. You truly have a chassidish soul. But not every mitzva tanz has a rebbe in it. Also, If mitzva tansen are so holy, why is the badchan busy degrading it by making (sometimes off-color)jokes?.
For those who say “close family” ,(lgbg) there is close family on both sides, so automatically there are strangers! So that logic is faulty at best.
I agree with noitallmr. I was recently at a big wedding where it was obvious the families were very far from chassidish (mixed seating and such), just a “shtickel”. They had a mitzva tanz. The kallah was so clueless, she danced along (which is in and of itself wrong as it was in front of men) and then she kissed all the men she danced with, including her new husband’s uncles and grandfathers. Oh, and a great and holy Rebbe came to dance mitzva tanz too there, which was very beautiful.(really!)
(And this is not so rare, i have been to at least one other such scenario)
To be fair, most chassidish and heimish people know how to make a proper mitzva tanz and it is their minhag after all. But there are certainly many issues one can find with it , to answer nameless
Think BIG said “The entire litvish/yeshivish world does not hold hands.”
Think BIG: I’m not sure if you are referring only to the Mitzvah Tantz or not, but many Litvaks do hold hands (including according to Rav Aaron Schecter) between the Chupa and Yichud room. So I don’t see how that would be any more or less a tzinius problem than holding hands at the end of the Mitzvah Tantz. (In fact there are many more non-family members witnessing the hand holding after the Chupa.)
Bottom line is, if done properly there is no tzinius problems in either cases.
think big- any minhag can be taken and distroyed. there are many jewish weddings that have mixed danceing- so should we stop dancing.
I have been to many many mitzva tanzs and there is always a shtick feeling of yom kippur. machal (dance) from lashon mechila (forgiveness.
Intresting to note, in many yerushami families the kallah wears a viel at the mitzva tanz .
Think BIG, thanks for the compliment about having a chassidische soul…
What you described about the kallah kissing the uncles and grandfathers on the other side is,obviously, wrong,especially in public. I have not seen this and mostly, the women are sitting on one side and the men on the other.. Wherever I have been, the kallah always stands still and the rebbes and the people dance in front of her. (Sometimes, the poor kallah gets all entangled in the gartel too..)As far as the badchan goes…he has to make a living and this is in line with the Amoroim’s “milse debedichuso’…
One last word about holding hands after the chuppah.I have heard, please correct me if I am wrong, that in Ger, they are makpid that chosson kallah hold hands after the chuppah.I don’t want to make mistakes about this, but it could be that this is done to familiarize choosn vekallah with each other.
note: she did not try to kiss the rebbe.
The Mitzvah Tantz is a minhug that PREDATES the Chasidim. It is brought down in Seform long before the Baal Shem’s time.
ok, ok all you guys. I was merely trying to explain to nameless what some people find wrong with it. There is no reason to take sides because each family will do as is their minhag. Each minhag has its source, including mitzva tanz. It’s not our place to decide which minhag is better.
Joseph, aderaba! The same people who have a problem with holding hands after chuppah have a problem with mitzva tanz for same reason. The fact that Chaim Berlin holds hands doesn’t take away from the fact that many other litvish yeshivas dont . (Also, I may add that Chaim Berlin has been called by some a “chassidish-litvish” yeshiva. hope i dont get into trouble for that. i just mean that they have other similarities to chassidish minhagim too, from what I hear.)
Rabbi of Berlin, it is true that in most places it is done properly and shalom al yisroel. You ask what is wrong? that was the original question, and this was the answer: Chiba berabim, by holding hands in public is assur. if you (and many others)say that in the case of mitzva tanz it is permitted, fine. Just not everyone agrees. And that is the RATIONAL behind it. Also, YOU feel the kedusha. Not everybody else does, nor do many really undertand what holy things are really supposed to happen.. And the reason they hold hands coming off the chupa is so there should be no hefsek between the chupa and yichud room, not to familiarize themselves with each other. They can do that in the yichud room.
By the way, nameless, it is interesting that even those that hold it is fine to hold hands after the chupa (for reason above) and at mitzva tanz, some hold that there is no excuse to hold hands coming in to the dancing.
Another point I may add is that I believe that many chassanim and kallos are young and they don’t really even know what their supposed to do. They do whatever they saw at their friends wedding. I once saw wedding pictures of a (litvish-sort of) couple hoding hands after chupa. I expressed mild surprised and they said that they simply had no idea what to they were supposed to do, and afterwards they got many questions about it.
Nameless and bowzer: you say that in many litvish places thay hold hands after chuppa. Well that all depends how you define litvish. I dont want to get too narrow over here (I think someone else started a blog on this very question), but in my experience, these terms, litvish, chassidish, heimish, modern etc. means something else to each person.it is all relative. So while you, nameless, will say you saw plenty “litvish” people holding hands after chupa, others will say they are not litvish at all. So many people i know grew up “heimish”, went to “litvish” yeshivos, and moved to lakewood. To their families they are “kalte litvaks”. To their neighbors they are “chassidish.” i’m sure you can all relate to this concept.
So what were arguing here is not what do litvish vs. chassidish people do, nor was the intention to pass judgement on what is right or wrong, but rather the question is WHY do those who hold it is wrong to have a mitzva tanz- hold the way they do. And that is the question I attempted to answer.
will hill- could you tell us the sources I am intresting in seeing them. thanks
In a nutshell, this is my observation:
Those who have an honest MT TEND TO never again be seen dancing together, holding hands in public etc. Those who don’t are MORE LIKELY to (doesn’t mean all of them do) go to mixed weddings with mixed dancing, “mingle” at kiddushim that tend to be mixed. One thing I have noticed is that when in a Chasidish shteeble and they make a mishebairach for cholim, they mention men and women in one mishebairach, while at the less Chasidish shuls (e.g. Young Israel I daven sometimes in the morning) they are very makpid to make separate ones for men and women.
Granted, I have not been all around the world, and have been to less chasunos than most people here. But these are true observations in my life and my surroundings.
Just one brief thought, whether mitzvah tantz, or bringing the kallah in to the men’s side to sit next to chosson during dancing, shouldn’t there be some opportunity for the chosson and kallah to be together and enjoy the dancing and simcha together? I have seen some recent yeshivishe weddings where basically they for all practical purposes are in separate rooms, as the mechitza is so high and thick. Might as well have them in two different cities, with a shliach to be mekabel kiddushin. Shouldn’t they laugh together?
Lu yetzuyer chas vshalom there are shalom bayis problems later on, and a counselor will try to be mechazek them and ask them how they felt towards each other when they were enjoying the wedding. They will say they did not have any feelings towards each other, since they were kept separate the whole time.
BTW, Reb Jent, let your ears hear what your mouth is saying. You say that keitzad merakdin may not be shayach in our dor, since some, instead of having kavanos lshem shomayim with no yetzer hara, might instead be having kavanos shelo lshem shomayim.
That is exactly one of my taynahs against kannaus. Since some may have kavanos shelo lshem shomayim when they yell and hit and throw acid, let’s be mevatel the whole thing, even though there may be some who are sincere kannaim.
There is one more point i want to bring out about a possible problem with the way mitzva tenz are today. Now this is only my OWN personal pet peeve-not to be confused with the halachic problems the (livish)roshei yeshiva have with it. And therefor you are free to argue my opinion, whereas I dont feel it is appropriate for any of us here to argue on the halachic opinion of the latter.
This is not a problem with mitzva tenz in general but with the way it is done today. In my experience most weddings (in America)end on average at 12, then the MT goes on for 2-3 hours. (That is when the MT is done “right”, by the real heimish olam) Close family have to stay till the end. I ask you, is that fair to the close family? These uncles, cousins etc. have to go to shul the next morning, and to yeshiva and work. And is it fair to the ne chassan and kallah? I know of a couple who came home from their wedding when it was getting light outside already.
The badchan often says, “well, the bal simcha told me not to make any jokes, so…” and then proceeds to make jokes. After all thay want to feel that their client is getting his money’s worth. All this adds on to the already late hour. And what about the grandparents? Doon’t forget that they were busy all day getting ready, traveling, pictures, etc. (I once mentioned this opinion to a very chassidish elderly woman, who was so excited with what i was saying, that i realized for the first time how hard it must be for them. But who thinks about them?)
My theory is that in the olden days the badchan would entertain the guests during the meal itself (like they do in Europe with speeches), but now, with the weddings being the huge social events they have come to be, speeches are impossible. So they have the badchan at the end instead when everyone’s falling asleep.
I hear that in Meah Shearim , and in Gur (i may be wrong) the MT is ten minutes long and no more.
What i’m suggesting here is that when it comes to MT, as in the rest of the wedding, the bal simcha has to think of his guests, and not feel like since its his simcha he can do what he wants. Keep it very short, half hour at most and then send everyone home.
(And don’t tell me people have the option to leave, because often they just can’t because of family dynamics!)
Poshut: I have no issue with the concept of the kallah coming into the men, in the places where that is the accepted minhag and it is done properly (see my earlier post) But I have an issue with your reasoning.
The time of the chassunah (dancing time) is for the chosson to be mesamayach with his male gusts and the kallah to be mesamayach with her female guests. That is how it was done throughout the ages.
Today, with many chassunas being videotaped, the couple can watch it together after and laugh.
I have no experience but it would seem strange to me for a counselor to ask a struggling couple how they felt towards each other during the wedding. During the engagement, i can hear. The wedding is one huge whirlwind of emotions, experience etc. I dont think the chassan is busy thinking about his kallah during the dancing etc, he has a whole roomful of guests he has to focus on. He has hopefully 100 or so years to focus on and build with his kallah. Just my opinion.
to pashate yid , page 2..let your brain think what your eyes read…can you point out where we said such thing..is it page one where we said about the bocherim dancing during seuda and the kalleh comes in, so if that what your refering to, we said l’gabay bochrim..also didnt mention these words at all ‘kaitzad merakdin is not for unzer dor’. ..so how do you deduct from my words what you say so please read over. is it another post ? which
think big- As you said earlier, I feel very chassidisch, even if I don’t necessarily wear the begodim. All I can say is that, virtually always, I have found tremendous kavannah and indeed kedusha at mitzvah tenz. That, even when the one who danced BEFORE (not with) the kallah were family members. Somehow, it encapsulates the simcha and the reason for the wedding- to built a bays neeman. On a personal level, I have better kavonos during the mitzvah tenz than when the choosn kallah sit together and people dance before them-although this is the way of the gemoro. Whatever the reason, it always seems to me that during the mitzva tenz, the jetzer horah takes a break.
One quick note- why can’t you have no hefsek between chuppah and yichud? Unless, it is to be joitseh the rishonim that hold that the yichud is koneh. othwerwise, I don’t grasp the hefsek bit.
for everyones info:
chassidim hold the mitzvah time is more important then the chupah itself!
and if its an issue with tzniyus everyone is hacken about im sure the rebbes wouldnt allow it!
regarding a kallah going into the men section, maybe someone can explain to me why it’s normal for bochurim to be dancing in front of a kallah?!
If you really want to know, all of you should consult your OWN rav on this and he’ll advise you based on YOUR minhag!
Think BIG:
Its funny you mention that regarding Chaim Berlin. Chaim Berlin has its “chasidishe” minhugim (Rav Hutner wore a Spudik, and came from Ger chasidis heritage); and Torah V’daas of course is technically “chasidish” (Nusach Sfard, Reb Shraga Feivel…) So at least two of the most “litvish” associated major Yeshivos have strong “chasidish” affiliations!
Bowzer:
Machzor Vitri, by Simchah ben Shmuel (Vitry) a talmid of Rashi, brings down the Mitzvah Tantz (based on Kesuvos 16 “keitsad merakdim lifnei hakallah”.)
Today, there is so much agmas nefesh at weddings and hurt feelings by both machatonim due to differing minhagim. Sometimes the damage is never forgotten or repaired. The main thing is not what happens at the wedding but rather how the choson and callah treat each other afterwards.
For Instance:
Engagement- Erusin
Engagement Ring
Marriage license-Kesuba
The wedding canopy-Chuppa
Bridal flowers; Wedding ring
Throwing rice- A minhag from Talmudic times
Dancing with the bride- Mitzvah tantz
There are others customs, but the point is made. Most holocaust survivors met and married in DP camps without any fanfare or minhagim, and with almost no divorce.
cherrybim, the rule is the couple follows the minhugim of the Choson. If this will cause machlokes, its best to be moichel (like you said.)
Many of the minhugim you compared to the goyim, are things the goyim copied the yidden (not vice versa.)
“Rosh Yeshiva families with mixed seating and no mechitzas”? Which Rosh Yeshivos?
Rabbi of berlin, i answered your post yesterday, i dont know why it wasnt posted. But in short, to answer your hefsek question, ask a chossid. I understood it to mean that its like the chassan “grabs” the kallah to be “koineh” her and runs to the yichud room. that way, no hefsek between chuppah and yichud, the two integral parts of the kiddushin.
Lgbg, the answer to all your questions can be found in the above blogs. If you still dont understand, i would be happy to answer. In any case, each person shoulld stick to his own families minhag. There is what to rely upon on either side!
yes, the chassidim think the mitzva tanz is more imp. than chupah. Just dont tell that to a misnaged, or he’ll think youre whacked! (by the way, are you having a MT?)
Joseph, about chaim Berlin, my point exactly! they have certain mihagim similar to chassidish, so obviosly the oP was not referring to them when she said litvish Roshei yeshiva.
Joseph, will hill and bowzer: what makes you think that the “mitzva Tanz” that the machzor vitri brings down is the same as the MT of today?? somehow i doubt it. In any case, if it predates chassidim, why do only they observe it?
cherry:
They stole it from us!
Lets just say it involves Sacraments, V’Hamaivin Yovin.
chaimberliner
youve spoken like a true chaim berliner!
Joseph says, “the rule is the couple follows the minhugim of the Choson”
Not everything I say is an invitation for controversy. Sometimes I just want to make an observation.
The Rav was giving an eitza tova to avoid machlocas.
The same thing perhaps if it were your minhag to have a “mitzva tantz” for your daughter and not my minhag, so I would have the “tantz” even though it goes against my minhag to b’davka not have one.
The same if I planned to have some wine on the tables and you liked a bar in addition to the wine. Joseph, for you I would spring for the bar.
Joseph, you said “Rosh Yeshiva families with mixed seating and no mechitzas”? Which Rosh Yeshivos?
Until recently, all the foremost Yeshivas had mixed seating at their annual fundraising dinners. And even now they have a few mixed seating tables for family and business associates of large donors. Is there a halachic dispensation for guests of honor?
Think BIG:
What is known today as the “chasidishe havoro” also predates chasidim. Same idea with the mitzvah tantz.
Think BIG:
Why do you doubt the Mitzvah Tantz mentioned in the machzor vitri is not what today’s MT’s are based on? I think you are mistaken. I believe the people who’s minhug to have a MT do so based upon what the machzor vitri discusses.
cherrybim, Agreed, regarding the eitza tova to avoid machlocas by being maskum to the other side. My simple observation is that if both sides are agreeable and bending over backwards for the other side (an ideal situation), then the proper derech is to follow the minhugim of the Choson.
Regarding the copying, not everytime the goyim copy our minhugim do we stop the minhug. This is a delicate balance our Chachomim make decisions regarding (and it varies.)
I find the Rosh Yeshivos families having “mixed seating and no mechitzas” quite surprising, thats all. How do the woman dance without a mechitza? (Perhaps the most prominent tznius issue, amongst many in such a situation.)
Joseph, years ago you only had mechitzas for davening in shul.
At weddings, the men danced at one end and the women at the other end. There was no more yetzer hara to look at them at that time, than there is today. As you know, where there is a will, there is a way- mechitza or no mechitza.
And guess what, look what came out of the previous generations. Joseph, you probably would not have eaten your eltere zaide’s food because he had to rely on many kulos which you would not accept. Yet, look at the einekle that he produced, kulos and all.
cherrybim, My simple mind fails to understand how if your dancing at a wedding (say in a circle) you can “not notice” the women dancing in the same room without a mechitza. Your eyes will at the very least inadvertently see them every time you circle around in dance. Perhaps this is too simplistic, and you can help me out in this practical inyan.
The “kulos” my Zeidas made in kashrus was to only eat food my Bubbas made for them.
Cherrybim, about your Rebbe’s advice to give in to the other side, it is well known that Rav Yaakov Kamenetzki zt”l had this practice. if people asked him whathis minhag was with walking his children down the isle, he always said “my minhag is whatever the mechutanim do”. i heard this directly from my friend who is an einikle of R’ Yaakov, but it is well known.
Joseph: The truth is, i dont really know the origins of the mitzva tanz. i was just speculating, because the way we do things in general has changed over the years. Our chasunas are nothing like what they used to be like in the olden days, which always took place on erev shabbos, for example. About the chassidish havara, its simpe. the havara has to do with what town/country you came from. The “chassidish” havara was the havara of the Hungarian and Polish Jews, which eventually became the hotbed of Chassidus. So now its known as the chassidish havara. The russians and lithuanians spoke differently, and the chassidim didnt really spread so much over there. Do I make sense?
cherrybim, It seems to me that fails to account for basic human nature, which many of the tznius halachos are based upon.
Thi nk BIG, True, while things do change over the centuries, the root of the minhugim are still the same. And the MT is an old minhig that long predates chasidus.
Interestingly, (and in line with your comment) the Litvish Chasidim (i.e. Stolin and Chabad) use the litvishe havoro. I’m not aware of which if any non-Chasidim use the Chasidishe havoro, but would not be surprised to find that they do.
Joseph, true, that’s my point. In innocent times many tzinus issues of today were not an issue then.
This is confirmed by many of the practices that involved woman and men (recorded in Tenach and throughout Shas) that would be frowned upon today. You seem very educated, so you know what I’m talking about.
i think its because all the chossons and kallahs friends that stay to watch and could be if the families would be makpid that no friends stay it would be muttar according to every one…… just taking a guess
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