The pashkavilim are already posted around the frum areas of Yerushalayim, now referring to Israel Police as “murderers” and the “Zionist Gestapo”.
In light with the growing violence coming from portions of the greater Meah Shearim community, a large protest is being announced, to be held in NYC, opposite the Israeli Consulate on 42nd Street in Manhattan.
The posters calling for the protest speak of avreichim who were intentionally run over as a result of police, in less than 48 hours. Mention is also made of the detainees, those arrested during the stormy protests on shabbos and on Tzfania Street, being held by police. The prosecution is requesting that at least some of them should be held without bail pending the outcome of the criminal proceedings against them.
As such, a protest is being held outside the “Zionist Consulate” on Tuesday, September 01, 2009, at 2:30pm.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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82 Responses
Kudos to those who attend and stand with our brethren in Eretz Yisroel.
“As such, a protest is being held outside the “Zionist Consulate” on Tuesday, September 01, 2009, at 2:30pm”
Is that really necessary?
And what an enormous kiddush hashem this protest is going to create !
#2, I am one of those bretheren in Eretz Yisrael, and they do not stand with me. When they follow the mitzvah of yishuf ha’aretz with me, when their children join mine in the army, when they come here to make E”Y a better place – then they stand with me. Until that point in time, they do not stand with me.
#3, How else to protest the atrocities by the authorities in the Holy Land?
Pee U!!
What a pure waste of time!! A guy lays on the street in front of a car…. that is called ‘runned over’.
Right now when residents in Beitar, Kiryat Sefer, Efrat, Emanuel and Eastern Jerusalem communities are fighting for their homes…we need miraglim protesting due to a perverted way of thinking. Save us from our own!!
why do you give these dribble free advertising? shame on YWN
nope
To all those who think this protest is accetable , you should be ASHAMED.. disgusting.. You are making such a chillul Hashem.. You are Sonai Yisrael!!!
None of you know the woman who is accused of starving her child. even if you do , you weren’t in the room where they say she was being abusive..
two, it’s not so poshut about the parking lot.. instead of doing violent protests you should make your shabbos minyan there and maybe the sounds of Lecha Dodi will inspire.. THAT kind of protest is a KIDDUSH HASHEM!!!!!!!!
To all of you that are anti-Zionist:
Did ever cross your mind that you’re a Jew hater? See, all the Jews that live in Israel are at some point Zionist, the Zionist movement (whether secular or religious) was created (with divine guidance from HaShem) in order to return the exiles back to our homeland. And when I day “divine guidance” it means that nothing happens if HaShem’s will is not there (Yechezkel 36.6 -37.28). You all can say what you want about the “3 oaths” in the Gemara, that theory was debunked long time ago and there are many books on this subject. And every country has it laws whether we like them or not, Israel happens to be one of them, you don’t have to agree with the government in power but that what HaShem setup for us because of our in-fighting (Mishlei 21.1, 16.4). And why am I quoting the Tanach, because unfortunately it has been forgotten among us.
They are entitled to their protest (at least in america) but, YWN should not be “using their lingo”, they should be reporting the news.
The next time they pen an article about Iran will they refer to Israel as the “Zionist Regime”??
Think about it it goes both ways.
We should be VERY CAREFUL when we are protesting such things. The Israeli police are notorious for their twisted practice of law enforcement. But, the Arab world will be watching very carefully what is happening and so will the Israel hating Obama administration.
Is there a better way to voice our collective pain?
lets call a spade a spade israel is not a democratic country it is a social communist much the way our president is better known as fabian socialists (look that up on google search and you will see where we are headed).
the fact of the matter is that israel being a country who doesnt respect civil democracy but kochi veotzem yadi only understands response by force.
i wish i could say we can get our message through a “shabbos walk” protest as i have seen done in kikar shabbos for several weeks but a mere “maacho” does not work to get the message to the zionists that we mean business.
shabbos and kovod hamais are not up for negotiation or debate as the gaavad said so succinctly and we here in america that have a different way of getting our voice heard as votes and askonim dont work very well when the foundations of yahadus are on the line. these people dont understand what even ben-gurian understood!
#13:
The zionists worked with and helped the Nazis liquidate and murder European Jewry.
Flatbush Bubby notwithstanding what you have said against me in the past…. I agree with you. This cannot be the way. The Israeli police and a lot of the secular public do seem to have a problem with the chareidim. But now with all that is going on we are playing right into their hands. Let us behave like Am Hashem protest if you want but why the damage and name calling etc and chilul hashem and dont do it in Chutz Looretz at all.
Counter-protest, anyone?
To Joseph,
do you have hard evidence of what you are saying?
unless you have hard evidence, shut up! and don’t desecrate the memories of the Millions of pure neshamot that were murdered by the nazis yimach shemo with accusations that are not true, that you are leveling against other Jews. You are such a Jew hater, I wonder with you pretend to a religious jew, (if you are) and have so much hatred in your heart against Jews that do not believe like you.
#20, you ought to head back to Chelm.
everyone should bevery careful how they speak, we all want to merit a jewish burial, we all want to raise our kids with eternal values and we all want to merit olam haba of which shabbos is 1/60th. so before you Diaspora yidden start shouting do a careful research about the facts and issues involved and also about the personalities involved. i wonder how many american yidden would be willing to be arrested for a fellow yid or for shabbos kodesh or for kvod hameis.
a gut gebenced yor.
The Satmars have their teachings and traditions and rebbes just like we do. Perhaps they should have their own family courts and maybe a prison or two that they can govern with responsibility. They certainly have the moral know how and right to rule over their own family and children upbringing. In arab lands in the past chief rabbis were sometimes given control of internal jewish legal issues and had power to incacerate when necessary. Obviously the Satmars by living in israel want to fulfill yishuv haarerz. Although we may not agree with washing our laundry in public the gov’t of israel should give them oversight of certain internal issues. Why should ochlei shekatzim oremasim determine how their children should be brought up? Once this is accomplished and budgeted I am sure no child will be neglected. Just look at what the Satmars do in some brooklyn and ny hospitals for holim and families that stay over shabbos. Do you think for a minute they are less capable than the govt to take care of their own?
Than they come to America to shnor for money because they are lazy to go to work and are busy demonstrating, waking up at 10 and davening after z’man tefilla. A bunch of laidig geyers.
Demonstrating on Shabbos? Is this “al pi halach too”?.
Do they think that they are above the law?
There were also articles and letters from people that live in Maeah Shearim about the demonstrators being from America. Are these the guys who go there to learn or the newlyweds on their honeymoons when their parents are here struggling for parnasah?
Shame on them!!!
For those on the YWN who are blind and don’t want to see whats going on here.
The satmer rabbi zt”l quoted 58 years ago. that a yid will not be able to leave in E.Y. now leider we see these live, every day a FRISHA GEZIRA by so called jews.
1) shabbos
2) poor mom
3) cut a nifter (for no reason)
4) Eirev
and who knows whats next.
all this shows that Masiach is almost here, lets start preparing with Tshiva, Ahavas Yisruel (even a satmar or the Eida)
I have PLENTY of “taiynas” against the Israeli government (which more often than not, acts un-Jewishly, and just plain foolishly) AND the Israeli Police (which very frequently acts un-Jewishly and just plain brutally) and so i have no problem with civil protests IN Eretz Yisrael,- BUT – 1) to call them “ROTZCHEEM”, whom have they murdered??? AND 2) protesting in chutz la’aretz -especially the way these groups do- only serves the interests of our enemies, and is a CHILUL HASH-M!!!
Satmar Chassidim that protest in the US are no different than the “miraglim.” If they want to protest let them go to E”Y. Otherwise, Keep silent and avoid a chillul Hashem.
To Joseph #18: You’re comment is disgusting and NOT TRUE. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying it. While the Zionist movement at that time did put a high priority on getting Jews out of Europe to Eretz Yisrael, and may have made deals at certain points with the germans, yemach shemam, to get Jews out TO Eretz Yisrael, for you to say that they “helped murder European Jewry” is a horrific lie, and (in chodesh Elul) sinas chinam of the worst type!
To #31 “avoid a chillul Hashem”
It’s the biggest KiDASH HAS’ to protest against the isreali gustapoes, and so called goverment
if you want to avoid what you call ba chillul Hashem, call up your freinds in the goverment, and send them a letter not to use this cruelty methods on frum pepole who dont want the TOHRAH destroyed, in E.Y.
i totally agree in the protest in israel, i understand that the chassidim dont want the karta parking lot operating on shabbos, so protest in israel!!!wat are they comming to america for???in israeal, it doesnt cause antisemitism, bec- they have a right to their land!!!ND BECAUSE ITS ALL JEWS…but by coming to america, and showING THE GOYIM…THAT CAN CAUSE MASSIVE ANTISEMITISM!!!!PLEASE DONT!!!
To #22 and #32
If search in google for “מיכאל_דב_וייסמנדל” you will find more info about this.
Did you ever hear the phrase “רק דם תהי-ה לנו הארץ”
First of all, some Zionists 65 years ago may have helped the Nazis for their own sick reasons. There were also alot of Zionists that saved tons of Jews than- Second of all, only Satmar is of the view that having a State is wrong, and most Gedolim look at the state as a gift from Hashem (for example, R’ Moshe Feinstien Holds that one of the places that we used to have to rip our shirt upon seeing( I don’t remember if it was the old city somewhere, or Yerushalayim…) – in mourning-we no longer rip, due to the fact that we now own that area. Rav Shachs Yeshiva hangs the Israeli Flag on Yom Atzmout, and most Gedolim are pro the Idea of a Jewish State, as long as it doesnt compromize the Halacha. So anyways, don’ty forget that that Satmars view is a minority. Also, Instead of forming our own opinions on things, like wether we have a right to hate our jewish brothers just because their great grandfather turned their back on religion( which who knows whos fault that was) and they therefore get upset when poeple burn garbage cans in middle of the roads because a parking lot was opened to make parking a little easier, we should ask the gedolim.
To #32 seems that you don’t know your history there are many books written on this subject to a certain extent the Zionist movement prevented yidden from being saved from the Nazi’s YS”V in order not to upset the British or Americans there is also well documented case of the kastner trail that rudolf kastner delibrarly foiled rav wiesmandels plan to save the european Jews in order to save a few Zionist leader (reference: perfidy written by Ben hecht)
#25 Beautiful points.
#37 You are factually incorrect on all your points. Practically all the Gedolim were and are opposed to the State, but for practical reasons cooperate with it so that they aren’t trampled by it.
to #13 and the Zionist were the ones who saved the Satmar Rav
The jew haters at radioislam and aryan.net must be very happy. Their perfidious propaganda about zionists and nazis is being swallowed whole by the very yidden they despise. And they despise all of us, not just the ones with uniforms and guns. And those of you who are mumchin in the area of anti-zionist history, please answer this – what kedusha was displayed by the Satmer/Eidah/anti-zionists in the prewar period when they selected a Jacob De Haan as their memuneh? Knowing full well what he was, and what he did, and with whom? Vehamayvin yovin.
This protest and the protests in Yerushalayim are about one thing, and all of the readers here need to understand it. Its not about Shabbes, its not about a munchausen mom, its not about an autopsy, or a beating by a policemen. It is all about POWER. The Eidah and the Satmer and their allies have put themselves in a position where they have less of it than they ever have. They have decided to alienate much of the chareidi community, let alone the chardal, dati tzioni, and secular Jews. They benefit from the state surrounding them that they don’t recognize, and they complain when their maximal demands are not met.
Unless they want to live in a theological dictatorship, like Iran, they need to do what every other constituency does. build consensus, make deals and compromises, demonstrate good faith, contribute to their community (Aside from the amazing Satmer women who bring meals and kindness to hospitals and all patients around yerushalayim, I wonder what other than the reek of burning garbage yerushalmim have seen from this community) and develop a usable and significant powerbase. If they can’t get what they want, it’s because they haven’t made a good enough case, or the balance of the tzibur thinks they are wrong and will not support them.
These days, nobody has entitlements. nobody. Why should they feel they have, especially when they work to alienate the very people in whose hands those entitlements reside? It boggles the mind.
So this community, or its leaders, or askonim, have dug themselves a hole. they look to the left and the right, and all they see is bare earth walls. So instead of asking for help, and being prepared to help lift themselves out of the hole, they curse the earth they have dug, they beat the earth in front of them, and they weep because their hands are torn and bruised. My neshoma weeps at their pain, but my yiddishe kop marvels at their stubborness.
There is a lesson to learn for anyone who wants anything, in Israel or in front of the consulate in NY. Who is your target? what is your goal? Is your method effective? EFFECTIVE? if it isn’t, you are just giving a geshrei into the wind. H’kbh wants you to demonstrate kedushas ahavo, the holiness of love, for your fellow Jew. You want something from him? You want to change his mind? Treat him like a mensch. Don’t call hij a Nazi. Don’t insult the people who have been layiing their lives on the line for you and your family (wether you asked or not) for 60 years. I was so touched to see how supportive the vast majority of the chareidi population was for the IDF in the Gaza war this winter. It showed how truly small was the contingent of those who angrily shout for power they have not earned, for influence they need to invest effort and love to achieve.
to: #38 “emes vyatziv” saying that “zionists” helped murder european Jewry (because of the acts of a few) is no different than saying that “Jews” are allies of the insane would-be mass murderer president of Iran because a few crazy neturei-karta-niks hugged and kissed him!!! With all of Israel’s flaws, and there ARE MANY, what do you think the state of world Jewry would have been in the late 1940s and early 50s (after a war which killed a full third of all the world’s Jews, including many gedolim, and destroyed virtually all of Europe’s outstanding yeshivas) if, a Jewish homeland had NOT been established in Eretz Yisrael? And… do you really think that after 2,00 years WITHOUT a Jewish State, that (especially after the devastation of the Shoah) that it was a “coincidence” (“b’mikreh”) that it came into existance, and that it was not HaSh-m that brought it into existance?!? YES, there ARE MANY VERY SERIOUS things wrong in Eretz Yisrael, but they will not be remedied by sinas chinam, they will be remedied by (YES!) by Mashiach, who will be brought by AHAVAS CHINAM!!!
You naive know-it-alls sound a lot like Obama. You think Israel is like the US, just like he thinks about the Muslim countries. You think being nice to them will make them be nice to us. You guys are arguing with seasoned veterans who have fought these reshaim for generations – and have won many battles. Do you remember the Dark Ages of the 60’s and 70’s? Were you even born then? Who are you to tell these mesiras nefesh yidden how to go about it? Think you’re smarter than them? This is not the first Satmar protest. We’ve been there and done that many times, for good reason. Before you open your hate-filled mouths, do your homework. Learn the other side of the story in VaYoel Moshe, Natruna, etc. There’s a world of info out there; no excuse for ignorance.
There’s a story that’s said about the Ponovitzer Rav, ZT”L: Whenever the Rav opened a new school, using money from the state, there would be protesters outside. People wanted to remove them, as they felt it was a p’gam in the Rav’s kovod. He told them that not only should they not be removed, but if they wouldn’t come to protest, he’d hire protesters!! The Rav explained that he made a cheshbon that in order to build Torah in E”Y, he has to use state money. But, it’s a b’dieved. We need the protesters to remind us of that.
What a beautiful kiddush hashem (NOT!).
There is no chilul hashem to protest what you hold is right.
see the photos the police are realy acting like n_zis
“Zionist Consulate” shame on you YWN….. this is not even news….. its a few guys with noting better to do today, what next burning dumpsters in times square?… maybe they should go to the bronx zoo and have a nice summer day.
Why don’t all of you from both sides of the isle do a little soul searching. We are 2 weeks away from Yom Hadin and Hashem is ready to judge us. How are we going to face him with all this sinas chinom going around? Do you think, by trashing one another, hashem will judge us favorably? The biggest protest to the chilul hashem thats going on is learning Torah, davening with kavana and treating one another with respect. Hashem will not answer our pryers by us yelling names and making false accusations at one another. We have had such a challenging year this past year, from tradgedies to loss of Parnassah to mass chilul Hashem for all the world to see. Do we want a repeat this year? Quit the kindishkeit and learn to respect each other although we are all from different backgrounds and differing opinions. May we be zoiche to a year of Sholom between all of Klal Yisrael and an end to all Chilul Hashem and thus let the ultimate Kiddush Hashem prevail with the redemption of all Klal yisrael bimheirah beyamenu ,Amen.
Zionism is NOT Judaism!
Israeli Government sham on you!
Satmar Chassidim: You are wrong, wrong, totaly wrong!
#43: If you’d really do the research, you’d know that the Kastner trial ended up being about the betrayal of Joel Brand’s mission by the Mapam people, wih heavy involvment of party regulars, including Moshe Sharrett, and depending on whose account you read, Chaim Weitzman. (Yes, I know the trial started as a simple libel case against an obscure journaist named Malkiel Greenwald. But it morphed into a referendum on the Zionist hatzala efforts, as personified by the leader of Zionist Hungarian Hatzala committee.)
Yes, there were individual Zionists (Joel Brand, Hanna Senesh, and others) who were involved in hatzala efforts. They too had a Yiddishe heart. But the Zionist movement leaders were on the wrong team at that crucial moment.
And as far as the Satmar Rav is concerned, a large part o the Kastner trial was about his selling out a million Hungarian Jews, for the guaranteed safety of one train containing some 1600, including the Satmar Rav, and (I believe) R” Yonasan Steif.
Incidentally, Rav Chaim Schmelczer, zt’l, founder and Rosh Yeshiva in Telshe Yeshiva Chicago, was also on that train as a young boy together with his mother and brother Ruven, father of the famous singer Lipa Schmelczer.
דער עיקר פון די פראטעסטן איז געווען ‘פאר זיך אליינס’, מען זאל נישט פארגעסן אז דאס איז דער היינטיגער עמלק און א ערליכער איד ווערט דארטן פארפאלגט
Hi Joseph. The thing about Reb Moshe Feinstien I read in the Hamodia and it said over there where it says it if you truly don’t believe me I will find out were it is written. The fact that they hang up an Israeli flag every year by Ponovitch is something Iv’e heard from a few poeple whom I trust. The rest of the information I heard first hand from Rabbi Leff during a Yom Atzmaot Bbq. For more information you can visit http://www.rabbileff.net , and look for the relevant subjects. An eye opener could also be to read the book entitled ” Zion today”.
To mn, yes zionism is not judaism, just as rioting, calling names to a fellow jews and acting like behemot is NOT Kiddush HaShem but Chillul HaShem.
I never cease to be amazed at the hatred toward their fellow Jews of the very people calling their fellow Jews “Jew-Hater.”
All of you spewing this venom: Do you not see why we are still in golus??? Do you all not understand the destruction we will cause to come about because of all this sinas chinam??? Do you even care???
You call this a chillul HaShem and that a Chillul HaShem and this group and that group a chillul HaShem. I say: YOUR HATRED TOWARD YOUR FELLOW JEW IS A CHILLUL HASHEM!!!
So person A is a zionist and person B is not. Can we not disagree without trying to rip one another apart? Can we not disagree without calling each other names? Can we not disagree without HATRED? Can we not disagree and yet still LOVE OUR FELLOW JEW as ourselves?
May G-d save us… FROM us
To all of you who live denial world and like to deny history, here is were you all will get challenged, take a peek in “ספר מן המצר” written with blood by the Nitre Rosh Yeshiveh Rav Michual Dov Weismandel ZT’L (who was one of the main heroes with his incredible hatzalah act by ww2) and you will get really really shocked with the acts that were done by Zionist leaders ר”ל. he is writing there his OWN biography, so its more trustable of all your blabs
Their indignity slang “רק בדם תיהי’ לנו הארץ” (Only with blood we will get the land עפ’ל) is a reflect of all their activities.
Zionism didn’t care for Judaism then
Zionism didn’t care for Judaism now
Zionism didn’t care for Judaism ever
Zionism is not Judaism * Zionism is against out Torah.
Should Hashem have Marcy to all of us.
TORAHJEW1826: DID YOU EVER READ PERFIDY?
#47, beautiful story. How far have we fallen. Once upon a time, when it came to nituchei meisim, Agudah stood side by side with the Eidah and Satmar, putting aside their differences. Now it’s all about politics. What was considered a bedieved has become a lechatchila. Reb Aharon, Reb Moshe, Rav Shach, and other gedolim of their generation, must be turning in their graves.
So the zionists of 60 something years ago were anti Torah.. The state of israel is the way it is to remind us that we are in golus.. Yet there is NO EXCUSE to be MALSHIN the LAND OF ERETZ YISRAEL!!! There is a midrash about the miraglim that those that spoke Dibaas Haaretz had worms crawl into their mouths after they were nifter in the midbar.
Does Satmar want that to happen to them??
Eventhough you can say the Satmer are anti Torah about their things?
There are things that they do that are contrary to the Torah also.
1. these crazy protests-lashon hara
2. money issues, which i wont’ say on here.. aka Lo tignov..
So stop sticking your noses so high and look at yourselves for once.
Why do the secularists hate the chariedim I just cant figure it out???
To Yeshivishb, and your point is…?!?… There is more Torah inst. in Israel than in chutz la aretz.
To mn, where in the Torah says that we can not have a State of our own? don’t give me the writings of satmar, I know them already, give from the tanach where does it says that is assur to have a medinah.
And about the “3 oaths” in the Gemara, that theory was debunked long time ago and there are many books on this subject. And if it wasn’t for the Medinah this land would have been in arabs hands. Also, the satmar Beit Kenneset in the geulah uses electricity provided by the same people that they hate, how about that?! (they should be using kerosene lamps) the same with public transportation, water, sewage and money, the money used here is the shekel not the dollar. so don’t spit in the face of the people that provides you with the means to live a lazy life and then go to ask us for money all the time but would not lift a finger to help us build this land.
To username4ywn:
Unfortunately, we the “Torah observant Jews” that gave them plenty of reasons with all our in-fighting and power struggle of who’s Rebbe is bigger and on and on………
just as so many here are worried about protesting in America, so is the Israeli government. And that’s the point.
P.s. Showing hate towards Satmar or Eida, is definitely worse then doing so against Baali Aveiruh
#43, Actually, new evidence has come out recently that showed that Kastner saved almost 15,000 Jews. He was a hero not the collaborator that history thought he was. Hashem alone know why he was so hated and scorned even though he did so much good.
I have a problem with the retoric used by the Satmar. If you read the article with out realizing that you were talking about Jews, you would think that for sure this is talking about Muslems. They sound the same. Our enemies are rejoicing to have more allies.
As a child of Holocoust Survivers, I hate the word “Nazi” tossed around like that. The Israeli Police are known to be violent and abusive, but I don’t think they are like the people who killed my grandparents, aunts and uncles.
Oh no. Reb Yoel is sighing and saying I told you so.
One Shabbos a few months ago, my family & I were in Jerusalem for a Sheva Brachos. We were NOT involved in any demonstration or anything. We were just crossing a relatively quiet street on the way to the Sheva Brachos when all of the sudden a taxi tried to run us over. The traffic light gave us as
pedestrians the right-of-way to cross & when the taxi driver saw us crossing, he sped up trying to
G-d forbid hit us. We all ran back to the other side scared out of our minds. BEWARE!!!!! There is a lot of hatred in Israel against the religious Jews causing these kind of incidents. The driver also could have been an Arab. There have been many incidents R’L of Arabs running over Jews.
Kastner ym’s is a documented mass-murderer of Jews.
frumimaof3, and all other with similar thoughts
Sorry you are very ignorant in the SHITEH of the satmar ruv R’ Yoel z’l, I would strongly recommend you all to take a peek into it and see what’s all about, (P.S. so far, NO ONE IN THE WORLD has challenged one בירור of the VaYoel Moishe, ניתי ספר וניחזי
And to those who are trying to deny the facts about Kastner etc. I wish you could be right, but the witness of Rav Weismandel Z’L and other says clear their shameful acts
Anyone who demands that Kastner be thanked for “saving” anyone, should be insisting that Adolf Eichmann ym’s be thanked for “saving” those very same people. Everything Kastner did, was with Eichmann’s permission and arrangement. After all both Kastner and more importantly Kastner’s partner Eichmann made the arrangements in conjunction with each other.
So where are you people not demanding Eichmann receive his “hakoros hatov”? The logic demanding Kastner receive “hakoros hatov”, demands even more that Eichmann receive “hakoros hatov”.
The answer why Eichmann deserves no hakoros hatov, is the same answer why Kastner deserves no hakoros hatov. They were both personally and directly responsible for murder of European Jewry.
I wonder if you all big protesters will protest and get arrested on behalf of others Jews, like Russian Jews, or Iranian Jews who are procesecuted in their countries. Do you know that if not for “so called by you Nazi” Israeli army or police, all of you would be wiped out by your friends arabs, who are laughing right now, by watching the circus you guys do on the streets. Most of the protesters are bochurim, who brought there to scream, make loud noices, but they really have no clue what is really going on in Eretz Isroel. They are just brough to make noise and to hate other Jews who they were told are very bad. I have relatives in Satmar in Kiryas Yoel, and the same way they hate Nazis, they hate their satmar brothers from williamsburg. The same way they are readdy to fight with israeli policemen, the same way they are ready to kick their brothers who believe in another rebbe. Shame on you people, go learn instead, maybe it will clear your head.
To mn,
You haven’t answered my question: where do it says in the Torah, not in “vayoel moishe” that it is assur to have a medinah? Vayoel moishe is full of venom hatred against Jews that unfortunately were not shomer Torah uMitzvot, for the mere issue of trying to build a medinah without the coming of Mashiach. There is nowhere in the Torah that says that we are depended upon Mashiach to do Mitzvot, which includes conquering and settling the WHOLE LAND OF ISRAEL, something that you and your ilk lack of… And thank HaShem for allowing us to come back to our land after 2000 yrs of galut.
Joseph posted that “Anyone who demands that Kastner be thanked for “saving” anyone, should be insisting that Adolf Eichmann ym’s be thanked for “saving” those very same people. Everything Kastner did, was with Eichmann’s permission and arrangement. After all both Kastner and more importantly Kastner’s partner Eichmann made the arrangements in conjunction with each other.”
How would Joseph suggested that Kastner proceed without Eichmann’s permission? What kind of power did Kastner have? How could he have freed Jews on his own, at that time?
Let’s look a little further back, shall we? Before things got quite that bad, when more Jews could have gotten out?
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews leave Europe, while they still could?
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews stay?
If you wish to discuss communal responsibility of the Jewish leadership, this is an excellent place to begin.
70. You’re right, Kastner did help (so-called) Yidden by War World II, but gauss what only and only thus who was in his category “מחללי שבת” so they will be helpful for the MEDINEH, Yeah! The two three שומרי שבת that were in that transport-is well known for all of us the reason!!!!!!! (Did you ever hear about his חלום he had the night before the transport left? Check it out!) are you informed of the statement of Chaim Weitzman about the request to help a million hungry Jews? I did, It is hard to say but the was his respond “one cow in KIBUTZ is more worth to us a million Hungarian Jews! עפ”ל
There is no one בירור in VeYoel Moshe that is not based on simple GEMUREH and RESHOINEM Just open the GEMORA at Masactes Kasibos at the the end Daf 112-113 and you will find the daas torah. I’m sure none of you learn the Daf Ha’yomi because you would see it their very clear.
To those who are concern of the so-called security the MEDINEH is providing us; please note and count when where more people were killed in Israel before year 1948 or after? Plus the fact who allowed yiden to keep Shabos and tza’nios the Palestinian Arabs or the reformed Zionist? I think you know the answer.
In addition, let me mention to you the AHAVAS YISROEL of Satmar Rav Z”L. his lovely hart to every single YID, he was supporting every needy financially and with all their needs, with his whole sole. As well as he was MISPALEL for every single YID no matter his surroundings, he used to cry bitterly over shefichas dumim shel Achienu Bnie Yisroel.- So brothers! Let’s not fight, let’s be mispalel that no Jew shall be killed or hurt not by an Arab and not by a Zionist Police or youngster.
And to a number of you bloggers I could just react with the following.
אל תען כסיל …….וקול כסיל ברוב דברים …… וכ”ש דפקיר תפי………..
starwolf – So, per your logic, thank Eichmann as well.
mn, are you a Saducee, believing only in torah shebechsav? Vayoel Moshe is fully based on torah, including torah shebeal peh.
So shall we summarize so far?
The principal complaint against the Zionists is that the people who had the highest priorities on their list were the leaders of their own movements. In other words, not too different from any others–who were tops on the Hareidi preference lists?
During the worst times in European Jewish history, some people involved in the Zionist movement got a few Jews out. They are condemned by the hareidi world as collaborators and mass murderers. Meanwhile, the rest of the Zionist movement is condemned for not getting more out.
Either way–the hareidi world feels free to condemn the Zionists for their behavior during the years of the Shoah.
What were the leaders of the Hareidi world doing for their fellow Jews during that time?
Now, allow me to ask again the question that I proposed before:
When there was still a reasonable chance to get Jews out:
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews leave Europe, while they still could?
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews stay?
As far as post #81 goes–
Joseph, people with my hashkafa already provided Eichmann with the thanks that he deserved.
Of course the charydy leaders did for Hatzalah, take a look in syfer מן המצר all his activities for hatzuleh!
Are you aware of the rescue acts of r’ Chaim Roth and the other Charydy volunteers of Budapest? They did all methods possible to rescue people and by fact thay safed a lot ב”ה
The main problem was that not even the Zionim (who had more ability and more $$ to help) dint help, they just block and mass all rescue activities by the Charydy Leasers, their main goal was רק בדם תיהי לנו הארץ,
Should we all be Zoiche to do Tshiveh
As far as post #84 goes —
starwolf, people with my hashkafa already provided Kastner with the thanks that he deserved.
What were the leaders of the Hareidi world doing for their fellow Jews during that time?
Attempting to stop the mass murder of European Jewry, but being obstructed by the zionists and reform.
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews leave Europe, while they still could?
They couldn’t leave, even if they wanted to. No doors were open for mass Jewish immigration after the advent of Hitler. Hitler offered the world to take the Jews off his hands, and the world told Hitler to keep the Jews.
Who in the Jewish community was advocating that Jews stay?
There was almost no one advocating that, and what you are inferring is a known libel and slander against Gedolei Yisroel ZT’L.
Joseph, are you saying (post 86) that people with your hashkafa believe in killing Jews?
Do you really expect people to believe that Rabbanim in Europe during the 1930s did not try to convince Jews in their communities not to emigrate?
starwolf, I’m sure you’re reading comprehension is better than that, than to come to that faulty conclusion (re: post 86).
2. As I mentioned, there was nowhere to emigrate to. Where could the Jewish masses have emigrated to after the advent of Hitler ym’s? Nowhere, the doors were closed.
And for the very very few who did have the opportunity, means, and desire to emigrate, there were very few in the clergy who advised those few individuals not to. Certainly this was atypical — both in such opportunity, and in such advice. And in those very few exceptional cases, if such advice was given, it was made with the best wisdom at hand.
# 88
Your hatred of Chasidim, especially Satmar, amongst others who don’t wear the same hat as yourself, disqualifies you from being believed on (at least) such issues — especially considering the untruthfulness you’ve spewed about them in your two year comment history.
#93,
I must agree with you for once. Your venom is indeed directed against all Torah Jewry — litvish, chasidish, and anyone else with a different hat than yourself.
In fact I never attended a Satmar (or chasidic) school nor was a regular in any Satmar shul. My agenda is defending all of Torah Jewry, their Rabbonim and adherents.
Like I said, the situation you described was few and far between — as such opportunity rarely existed. And like you admitted yourself, in those very few cases the advice was given with the best wisdom at hand.
to Joseph (posts 90 & 91)As to how many had the opportunity to emigrate, the farther back you go, the more opportunity existed. There was definitely opportunity to go to Israel before the white paper went into effect.
The Rabbanim did not act with the best wisdom at hand. The best wisdom at hand was advising to emigate–and this was done long before the gates were closed.
It seems that the most far-sighted amongst aour people were the Zionists–they were the ones advising emigration–decades before the Nazis came to power. Those who listened–and their descendants–had a much greater probability of survival.
starwolf,
If you are talking about “the farther back you go” (as you indicated), then surely it was debatable at the time if it was the best wisdom at hand to emigrate or not. And that is assuming there was where to emigrate to (even slightly further back in time) — something for the vast majority of people there was not anywhere to go.
You referenced the White Paper. That was in 1939. Prior to ’39 the desire to emigrate off the European continent was not prevalent amongst the vast majority of Jews. Hence it was of little issue, and rarely was even a question. In the few times (even before ’39) that it was desired, the financial means and the immigration quotas (even prior to ’39) prevented most from pursuing it further, hence it still was rarely an issue presented to the clergy to even consider.
And like sammygol admitted, the spiritual dangers of emigrating may have exceed the physical benefit. In the few exceptional cases that this did come before the clergy, the Rabbi may have correctly decided that someone would better risk dieing a Yid in Europe than a shaigets in America (or wherever.)
Well, I would have liked to continue this discussion, but my post was not put through by the management. i am not sure why.