The weekly BaKehilla, affiliated with Belz chassidus, reports Maran Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv was asked if the category of ‘bishul akum’ applies to potato chips. Maran responded by rhetorically asking “Does President Obama eat [potato] chips?”
Apparently, it was unclear what Maran meant and he then emphasized each letter, making it clear that if it is a dish not suitable for a king’s table, the bishul akum issue is irrelevant. It was then decided that for the purpose of this halachic issue, “President Barak Hussein Obama is viewed as a king” and therefore, the response is yes, bishul akum applies to potato chips since it is something the king does eat.
(Yechiel Spira – YWN Israel)
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29 Responses
Nowadays ‘kings’ eat everything. Once kings did not eat simple food. Nowadays, everyone eats a pita with falafel, pizza, drinks cola, eats french fries, etc. Including our own gedolim (well, the cola part anyway), political leaders, and others.
This seems to be a major reversal of previous rulings regarding presidents being seen as kings. Does this mean that we should say the complete brocha for him now? (Just to clarify, I am not being sarcastic.)
This “King” also puts his shoes on the desk.
What’s the doubt? If he puts his shoes on his desk & jogs bare chested y wouldn’t he eat potato chips?
Rav Moshe already paskened years ago that potato chips need to be bishul yisrael. look it up in the teshuvos. The problem is that all the major kashrus orgs go with a more maikal psak. So if you want to hold like the Gedolei Haposkim, stick to the heimishe potato chips.
Sorry, but I remember that the food had to be “ole al shulchan melochim”, something that would be served when the king formally entertains. What President Obama eats otherwise would not be relevant. So I don’t understand what Rav Elyashiv meant.
To answer #2. There are very few leaders, kings, prime ministers, or preseidents in the world today on whom you can make a brocho. According to halacha the king has to have the ability of deciding l’chaim or l’moves, life and death. The concept of oleh al shulchan melochim means if these foods are eaten by the elite of a nation. Better said Rav Elyashiv should have answered, does he himself eat potato chips since we know mahn malcho, rabbonon. Fact is that the halacho is looking to define bishul akum parameters and since today just about everybody, including national leaders, eat anything, bishul akum would apply.
I am not sure if Harav Eliyashiv is aware of the tactic of Obama..part of his appeal…starting with Pres. Clinton was to act like a man of the people..”one of us” from eating in Mc Donalds to wearing jeans at meetings to fistbumping instead of handshaking…I feel it’s like when the Chazon Ish was asked about touching above the elbows being a ‘makom mechusa’ even though today the world all goes with shortsleeve shirts..He answered ” batla daitum”…i feel if you are going to view the Obamas as a precedent (and a president) there are some issues that will arise in this regard…one thing that comes to my mind is the way that Mrs. Obama (the Queen) dresses…a new low level of pritzus..it might be argued that it is now acceptable since she is the Queen.
Of course I only can say what i just said because i didnt hear the above from Hagoan Harav Eliyashiv, and i assume at least part of it was taken out of context…i would never, chas visholem, even comment on a full psak of our Godol Hador and Posek Hador Shlita….(even as I type this I feel guilty commenting..but just wanted to raise some questions)
I’m sure there will soon be a whole bunch of papers spread on the tables of all our Batei Midrashim with the heading !!POTATO CHIPS!! There will be advertisements from Bloomy’s Glick, etc, and maybe Wise. A few pictures of some Gedolim, askanim, etc. munching on potato chips and pretzels. With some Divrei Toirah, stories, and maybe sponsored L’elui Nishmas Rabbi? Dr. Stephen Wise. Did he invent potato chips?
based on previous stories here on ywn, it sounds like the shaila boils down to (pun not intended) if obama can prove he’s a natural born citizen. good shabbos everyone :K)
I believe the discussion was on the halacha of Bishul, not the American government, and that the rav was being sarcastic.
I am very reliably informed that Rav Shimon Schwab asked the Chazon Ish if sardines were shayyach to Bishul Akum. The Chazon Ish responded, “Yes, the Queen eats them every day.” In other words, Rav Elyashiv is following the approach of the Chazon Ish. Granted, this is not (what I understand to be) the typical approach to Oleh Al Shulchan Melachim. Also, if anyone wants to see a defense of NOT requiring Bishul Akum on potato chips, see Rav Yisroel Belsky’s “Shulchan HaLevi, Vol. I.”
Thank you every body for telling the oilum what Rav Eliashiv Shlit”a “should” have said.
SHEESH!
Although Torah and basic halachic concepts are nitzchius and can’t be changed, there are many halachos where the parameters and criteria may change depending on the area, whether country, city, or society. Oileh al shulchan melochim was a criteria because every meal that a king ate was a formal dinner. The idea was is this item eaten at an honored meal. Very few “elite” people eat formal meals all the time. Rav Elyashiv was definitely being facetious with potato chips and Obama. The basic concept is if this food is eaten by “choshuva” people or not. Besides, oileh al shulchan melochim is being machmir not meikal. I thought a basic premise to being considered frum or heimish or any other ridiculous stereotype was to be machmir. Being seen as meikal will ruin your kids’ shidduchim. (shudder)
I don’t think rav elyashiv said this since he is one of the greatest poskim and would not say anything against what is stated in shulchan oruch.
As # 8 mentioned “ola al shichon melochim” is not the end of the quote. There are 2 more words in halacha “lelafos hapas” which means that they would eat it as part of a formal seuda. Obama is not a king he only is concidered a king while acting as president which would mean when hosting others for a meal. Not what he does while jogging.
However , the reason that Reb Moshe concidered it bishul akum is since fried potatoes ARE ola al shulchon melochim therefore potato chips need to be looked at as fried potatoes. Others argue and say that you need to look at the finished product and therefore it would definately not be olah al shulchan melochim.
rabbi of berlin- many rabbonim hold the issue is not the chips. potato is a food that is oleh al shulchan melochim which some people hold is a problem no matter if it’s made into french fries, potato chips or a fancy potato dish that’s served at a chassunah.
See Igros Moshe YD 4:48:5. Also see this link http://www.kof-k.org/articles/040308030441W-37%20Bishul%20Akum%20on%20Potatoes.pdf
See igros moshe yora deah 4 siman 48 the last paragraph.
And again the reason IS NOT because potato chips are ola al shilchon melochim but as explained before in # 16 since they are considered fried potatoes. Anything else I.E. Cereals etc. Are not olah al shulchan melochim.
What reb moshe says shouldnt be so confusing. this does not apply to any other products like cereals etc. ONLY potato chips since they are just fried potatoes which are a standrd side dish even at a kings table
A few comments on this article:
1. This psak is not new, as he has given the same ruling to Rav Koslowitz from Lakewood while Bush was President. He took to mean that he was being lenient.
2. Buying a Heimishe brand does not ensure that they are bishul yisroel, nor do all make such a claim on their label. A call to Rabbonim Machshirim will reveal differing policies regarding changing oil and kashering etc. as well.
3. The poskim are very clear that shulchan melochim includes sorim. This would definitely include a president.
4. The reasonn a commenter has ascribed to Rav Moshe is not written in the tshuva, but is his own speculation or one he heard. Rav Reuvein, to whom the tshuva was written explains the reason to be that they themselves are oleh. The reason stated is attributed to Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky, who also considered them to have laws of bishul akum, in Emes Lyakov.
5. To say that you won’t listen to something said in the name of Rav Moshe until you are shown the tshuva without having made any effort to find it yourself raises some questions.
6. To say that a food can be considered to be oleh based on other ways that it may be cooked is not a new concept. See Pri Chadash and Aruch Hashulchan re. kurkevan. It need not mean that only one method that would be oleh would create a rule, but there may be an application of lo plug. Rav Belsky agreed to me in an oral conversation that such a concept may exist, but maintained that it would not apply here. That is a judgement call that can be debated.
7. There are no mainstream Kashrus Organizations that limit shulchan melochim to the melech’s formal dinner. This is based on the Rambam’s wording of mazmin chavero olov. Many use a chasunah, bar mitzvoh or sheva brachos as their criteria. It is likely that you have never in your life tasted something which would be served at a state dinner.
I dont understand the conclusion statement of the article. R’ Elyashiv has no television nor does he read YWN, B”H. Its doubtfull that his gabayim report to him about how Obama jogs without a shirt, and he might even be unaware that Obama doesnt where a hat to formal affairs (although I’m almost sure he knows that Obama isn’t white). R’ Elyashiv was being funny and asked rehtorically: Does Obama eat chips? obviously not. Afterall, he’s the president.
I think its pretty pashut that he holds that theres no problem of bishul akum. The question that we’re left with is that since Obama probably does eat chips, does that change anything. (I think the psak stands in any case, but I’m biased because I like pringles)
I was physically there when my brother-in-law asked R’ Elyashiv “is there a problem of bishul akum with chips?” R’ Elyashiv answered “yes why shouldn’t there be a problem of bishul akum”. To that my brother in law responded because “it is not ole al shulchon melachim”. To that R’ Elyashiv responded “gam Obama ochel chips”. After that we asked a certain choshova askin who does tremendous work on the behalf of the gedolim and the tzibbur who was standing next to R’ Elyashiv during the conversation whether R’ Elyashiv understood the question as chips in Israel can also mean french fries. He brought us over to someone in R’ Elyashivs apartment who he says knows all of R’ Elyashivs Tshuvos and Shittos and we asked that fellow our question. That Rav told us that R’ Elyashiv holds that you go after the “min” of potatoes no matter what the final product is be it french fries or potato chips and thus there is a problem of bishul akum according to R’ Elyashiv. [His comment about Obama does not exactly reflect this shittah.] I cannot comment any further on the halachic aspects except for tell you this is exactly how the story unfolded on Thursday July 2, 2009 at around 8:15 pm in R’ Elyashivs apartment.
Not to argue with anyone– but the way we learned “O’le al Shulchan Melachim” in kollel was if it was proper to SERVE to a king.
Yes, a king or president may eat oatmeal for breakfast, but that does not mean that it is respectful to SERVE to him. While today he may be SERVED oatmeal in his own kitchen, that is because he WANTS it, not because it is proper decorum.
The actual translation of the words fits much more accurately this way. Additionally, while a king may eat something (like chips), it does not mean that it is at his TABLE — it may just be a snack…ve’dok
Pringles are a different question than fried chips. They are made using powdered potatoes which pass along the way as regular cooked potatoes. Therefore they may be a problem even without the aforemention reasoning. In the OU Bishul Akum Handbook there is a letter from Rav Belsky in which he states that although he is matir it is worthy to be machmir. There is a Heimishe brand of imitation Pringles which is likely bishul yisroel, but I have not yet determined that definitely.
BTW the handbook also quoted Rav Elyashiv as not wanting to be matir. pringles
I heard that Hagaon Harav Solveitchik ZATZAL asked the same question some time ago. He argued that potatoe chips would not be served at the table of the Quuen of England and therefore does not have the din of Bisul Akum.
Interesting that he brought proper Royalty as an example and not the US President. Seemingly the english know a bit more about etiquette than the Presidents. Also I guess with Royalty there is a kind of Masoret ( lehavdil)as to what is proper as apposed to the Presidency where any Tom Dick or Harry can be a President and do as he sees fit.
Nevetheless Hagaon Harav Eliyshiv was probably making the same diyuk as the Rav ZATZAL
a bachur once called the white house and got through to the chef. he asked if he would ever serve potato chips to the pres. tne chef said only regular not flavored like bbq
All potato chips start as regular chips. The spices and flavors are added afterwards. This is why at one point bbq chips were sold in Yeshiva of Staten Island. Once the fact that the spices became known thoses were no longer sold either.
everyone got it wrong. r elyashiv was asked about chips. the language spoken was modern day hebrew in which chips means what we know as FRENCH FRIES