Why is this Kol Korei only for the Flatbush community? Do the other “Heimisha” communities not care? Where are the Rabbonim/Poskim in Lakewood, Jerusalem, London, Baltimore, Chicago, LA, etc…?
A “free translation” indeed. And The hebrew psak includes the all important qualifier of “yitachen” (possible or plausible) before both the statement regarding grama.
It should be translated as follows:”a) on the grama parameters: there is a lot to question in their words, and it is quite possible that this still within, at least, the parameter of grama-which even the manufacturer admits is forbidden on Shabbos-and according to many opinions in the poskim it is quite possible that it is in the parameter of an action of a real melacha, whether lighting or putting out.”
Its good for people who transgress shabbos…it saves them from sin…
But for Frum people its not necessary…its the same idea like the Eruv in Flatbush…
benignuman: Try translating again into… English, please.
What does Rav Yitzhak Yosef have to say about this?
Reply to 1- because like every other Psak in the world there are people who will say “who is this and that Rabbi to tell me what to do”. Here is the Psak from Rav Belsky, you want to be Mechalel Shabbos go right ahead, I’m listening and I’m not a Torah V’Das Talmid.
I totally agree that it’s a disgrace to shabbos & very wrong but I can’t believe that the producers invested all this money without knowing from the rabbis that it’s gonna be ok. That tells me there’s more to this story.
Here’s how to make Shabbos acceptable “electric” switches.
For electric light enclose a table lamp in a box (non-flamable) with a door. Turn on the light before Shabbos. When light is desired open the door to the box. When it is not desired, close the door. One can do something similar with air conditioners, particularly the ones in Israel that also provide heat. Place a two way mechanical valve on the hose which goes from the unit to the house. One side of the valve releases the hot or cold air into the house. The other side releases it outside. Turn on the air conditioner before Shabbos. Adjust the valve on Shabbos according to ones convenience. The latter is like turning a water faucet on and off.
The former is like openning the door to a room where the light is on so as to illuminate a place that has no light.
After reading these letters, and reading up on how the kosher switch works, my conclusion is that I would sooner use the kosher switch, then turn on a cold water faucet on Shabbos. I am not a Rabbi, & I am not qualified to Poskin on Shilahs, but I have an understanding of how things work. When one turns on water particularly in New York City, the water is measured by a meter, and usage is transmitted four times each day at random intervals over the cellular network. Furthermore, if one is in a large building, any usage of water reduces the overall pressure and can result in starting of a pressure water or air pump. I would therefore challenge any authority who opposed the kosher switch to explain why it is permitted to use water on Shabbos. Should we not be filling up water jugs and buckets each erev Shabbos and Yom Tov, so we have a adequate supply of water without opening a faucet or flushing a toilet?
When you have a camp fire burning on the bottom of a hill and there are cans of oil rolling down the hill one by one, which are keeping the fire alive, you are allowed to kick away each can, even though your Kavonnoh is clearly to extinguish the fire.
So too here the individual ions of electro magnetic particles are flowing to keep the bulb alive and we’re stopping them.
Regarding what the letter mentioned Psik Reishe, very simple, Psik Reishe only applies when you’re doing the Maaiseh (like cutting of the head of an animal) but you’re missing the Kavonnoh (you did not have in mind that the animal should die). In our case, though, you’re missing the Maaiseh because your just kicking away something else that wants to sustain the fire; so Psik Reishe does not apply.
The debate of whether this takes away from kedushas Shabbos or not is not the point. That is a Hashkafa issue. The point is whether it’s muttar kahalacha or not. Now we hear from our poskim that it’s assur kahalacha. That is the main point
Someone wanted proof that he cannot set a TV with a game for shabbos. The rov answered because it says ושמרו בני ישראל….לדורותם
שבת is only considered שמור if it’s לדורותם doing things that look אסור you cannot expect future דורות to keep shabbos.
Will we permit automated cars on shabbos?
Our children are picking up on this and now its going to the next level..
any ideas??
“Why is this Kol Korei only for the Flatbush community?”
Read the bottom of the english translation.
Keep this treifa item out of our frum homes
Preface: I don’t think the kosherswitch should be used either.
Wondering though – given that one of the signatories advised yidden not to vaccinate, is everyone comfortable going with that psak too?
Lauren18: water is a necessity, a person can’t live without it. You could live without light for 24 hours. Believe me the world won’t come to an end
So according to you, #3, Rav Menashe Klein who was matir the eruv, meant it only for people who are not frum?
Lauren18: I don’t claim to know halacha, but if I remember correctly, those meters are mechanical. Also, if the measurement is being transmitted whether or not I use water, then that transmission has no connection to me. With regard to turning on the pump, that doesn’t sound anywhere near the psik reisha that the switch causes. So I’m going to have to disagree with your comparison. Additionally, if you yourself are not qualified to paskin, I wouldn’t suggest challenging those who are. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions, but don’t deny validity to to those who are authorities on such matters.
I’d like to see a kol korei from gedolei haposkim in Eretz Yisrael. They have a letter on their website from Rav Neuwirth and Rav Machpoud. If they were matir it, then there is a Posek with HUGE shoulders to rely on. If they retract, then the company will have a lot of trouble.
@lauren18, when you’ll learn the relevant halachas, you will be able to challenge Poskim, since you didn’t, and your whole post comes from your supposed knowledge of how things work, you’d be better off not posting on such dangerous topics.
@yira are perhaps related to the company that “invented” this switch? Cause it sounds like it
Lauren18, letting the meter run while turning on water is #1 דבר שאינו מתכיון since you could care less if it measures, all you want is the water #2 It is not a פסיק רישא since it doesn’t necessarily happen every time you turn it on #3 it is a גרמא since it is not a direct result of your action rather what is referred to as כח שני.
As side note even if one would argue and say that it is a פסיק רישא that the meter will measure every time you turn it on, many poskim (har tzvi avnei nezer) say that although in accordance with the פסק of the רמ”א one cannot do a מלאכה via גרמא nevertheless a combination of a דבר שאין מתכוין even though a פסיק רישא and a גרמא is muter. (רבינו חננאל argues and some are מחמיר for his שיטה)
Another point is that even if one would argue that the switch works through כח שני and is classified as a גרמא it is still different than the water since the switch is an apparatus created to turn in a light as opposed to a faucet which is created to let out water, and the חזון איש writes that an item created to work through גרמא isn’t called a גרמא.
#9 Lauren18 – first of all, if you do a simple google search you’ll find your answer.
Secondly, don’t you think it would’ve be more appropriate to put you comment in as a question instead of a statement?
Little people you should keep your opinion to yourself and let real poskium deal with the matter. Instead of watching your tongue during the sefira days, you are occupying your self with forbidden lashon. These forums are no less than the goyish yahoo type forum. who are you to even apply a cherem. You know nothing of the people involved and nothing About the matter. Focus on yourself not talking lashon and avak lashon har
Lauren18:
Ask your LOR, but in my humble understanding, at least for some of the points you raised:
The prevailing rabbinical opinion is that one may briefly open/close a refrigerator door on Shabbos (e.g. to take out food) despite the chance that the compressor may start up as a result of opening the door. I assume the same applies to the water pump issue you mentioned.
Regarding your description of the meter usage being transmitted four times daily, that does not seem to have a bearing on the usage of water (other than, of course, what particular number is transmitted).
@Lauren18 @the muffin man.
Lauren, As someone that understands things you bring up a very valid point. I’m not a rabbi, and i highly suggest that you ask your LOR. here are a few things that make water very different. 1 melocho sheano tzricha, 2 maleches machsheves, 3. For most people its misasek as well.
In addition most water meters are not electric. even if they have an electric transmitter
And aren’t these the same Rabbonim who bash YWN left and right??
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27 Responses
Why is this Kol Korei only for the Flatbush community? Do the other “Heimisha” communities not care? Where are the Rabbonim/Poskim in Lakewood, Jerusalem, London, Baltimore, Chicago, LA, etc…?
A “free translation” indeed. And The hebrew psak includes the all important qualifier of “yitachen” (possible or plausible) before both the statement regarding grama.
It should be translated as follows:”a) on the grama parameters: there is a lot to question in their words, and it is quite possible that this still within, at least, the parameter of grama-which even the manufacturer admits is forbidden on Shabbos-and according to many opinions in the poskim it is quite possible that it is in the parameter of an action of a real melacha, whether lighting or putting out.”
Its good for people who transgress shabbos…it saves them from sin…
But for Frum people its not necessary…its the same idea like the Eruv in Flatbush…
benignuman: Try translating again into… English, please.
What does Rav Yitzhak Yosef have to say about this?
Reply to 1- because like every other Psak in the world there are people who will say “who is this and that Rabbi to tell me what to do”. Here is the Psak from Rav Belsky, you want to be Mechalel Shabbos go right ahead, I’m listening and I’m not a Torah V’Das Talmid.
I totally agree that it’s a disgrace to shabbos & very wrong but I can’t believe that the producers invested all this money without knowing from the rabbis that it’s gonna be ok. That tells me there’s more to this story.
Here’s how to make Shabbos acceptable “electric” switches.
For electric light enclose a table lamp in a box (non-flamable) with a door. Turn on the light before Shabbos. When light is desired open the door to the box. When it is not desired, close the door. One can do something similar with air conditioners, particularly the ones in Israel that also provide heat. Place a two way mechanical valve on the hose which goes from the unit to the house. One side of the valve releases the hot or cold air into the house. The other side releases it outside. Turn on the air conditioner before Shabbos. Adjust the valve on Shabbos according to ones convenience. The latter is like turning a water faucet on and off.
The former is like openning the door to a room where the light is on so as to illuminate a place that has no light.
After reading these letters, and reading up on how the kosher switch works, my conclusion is that I would sooner use the kosher switch, then turn on a cold water faucet on Shabbos. I am not a Rabbi, & I am not qualified to Poskin on Shilahs, but I have an understanding of how things work. When one turns on water particularly in New York City, the water is measured by a meter, and usage is transmitted four times each day at random intervals over the cellular network. Furthermore, if one is in a large building, any usage of water reduces the overall pressure and can result in starting of a pressure water or air pump. I would therefore challenge any authority who opposed the kosher switch to explain why it is permitted to use water on Shabbos. Should we not be filling up water jugs and buckets each erev Shabbos and Yom Tov, so we have a adequate supply of water without opening a faucet or flushing a toilet?
When you have a camp fire burning on the bottom of a hill and there are cans of oil rolling down the hill one by one, which are keeping the fire alive, you are allowed to kick away each can, even though your Kavonnoh is clearly to extinguish the fire.
So too here the individual ions of electro magnetic particles are flowing to keep the bulb alive and we’re stopping them.
Regarding what the letter mentioned Psik Reishe, very simple, Psik Reishe only applies when you’re doing the Maaiseh (like cutting of the head of an animal) but you’re missing the Kavonnoh (you did not have in mind that the animal should die). In our case, though, you’re missing the Maaiseh because your just kicking away something else that wants to sustain the fire; so Psik Reishe does not apply.
The debate of whether this takes away from kedushas Shabbos or not is not the point. That is a Hashkafa issue. The point is whether it’s muttar kahalacha or not. Now we hear from our poskim that it’s assur kahalacha. That is the main point
Someone wanted proof that he cannot set a TV with a game for shabbos. The rov answered because it says ושמרו בני ישראל….לדורותם
שבת is only considered שמור if it’s לדורותם doing things that look אסור you cannot expect future דורות to keep shabbos.
Will we permit automated cars on shabbos?
Our children are picking up on this and now its going to the next level..
any ideas??
“Why is this Kol Korei only for the Flatbush community?”
Read the bottom of the english translation.
Keep this treifa item out of our frum homes
Preface: I don’t think the kosherswitch should be used either.
Wondering though – given that one of the signatories advised yidden not to vaccinate, is everyone comfortable going with that psak too?
Lauren18: water is a necessity, a person can’t live without it. You could live without light for 24 hours. Believe me the world won’t come to an end
So according to you, #3, Rav Menashe Klein who was matir the eruv, meant it only for people who are not frum?
Lauren18: I don’t claim to know halacha, but if I remember correctly, those meters are mechanical. Also, if the measurement is being transmitted whether or not I use water, then that transmission has no connection to me. With regard to turning on the pump, that doesn’t sound anywhere near the psik reisha that the switch causes. So I’m going to have to disagree with your comparison. Additionally, if you yourself are not qualified to paskin, I wouldn’t suggest challenging those who are. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions, but don’t deny validity to to those who are authorities on such matters.
I’d like to see a kol korei from gedolei haposkim in Eretz Yisrael. They have a letter on their website from Rav Neuwirth and Rav Machpoud. If they were matir it, then there is a Posek with HUGE shoulders to rely on. If they retract, then the company will have a lot of trouble.
@lauren18, when you’ll learn the relevant halachas, you will be able to challenge Poskim, since you didn’t, and your whole post comes from your supposed knowledge of how things work, you’d be better off not posting on such dangerous topics.
@yira are perhaps related to the company that “invented” this switch? Cause it sounds like it
Lauren18, letting the meter run while turning on water is #1 דבר שאינו מתכיון since you could care less if it measures, all you want is the water #2 It is not a פסיק רישא since it doesn’t necessarily happen every time you turn it on #3 it is a גרמא since it is not a direct result of your action rather what is referred to as כח שני.
As side note even if one would argue and say that it is a פסיק רישא that the meter will measure every time you turn it on, many poskim (har tzvi avnei nezer) say that although in accordance with the פסק of the רמ”א one cannot do a מלאכה via גרמא nevertheless a combination of a דבר שאין מתכוין even though a פסיק רישא and a גרמא is muter. (רבינו חננאל argues and some are מחמיר for his שיטה)
Another point is that even if one would argue that the switch works through כח שני and is classified as a גרמא it is still different than the water since the switch is an apparatus created to turn in a light as opposed to a faucet which is created to let out water, and the חזון איש writes that an item created to work through גרמא isn’t called a גרמא.
#9 Lauren18 – first of all, if you do a simple google search you’ll find your answer.
Secondly, don’t you think it would’ve be more appropriate to put you comment in as a question instead of a statement?
Little people you should keep your opinion to yourself and let real poskium deal with the matter. Instead of watching your tongue during the sefira days, you are occupying your self with forbidden lashon. These forums are no less than the goyish yahoo type forum. who are you to even apply a cherem. You know nothing of the people involved and nothing About the matter. Focus on yourself not talking lashon and avak lashon har
Lauren18:
Ask your LOR, but in my humble understanding, at least for some of the points you raised:
The prevailing rabbinical opinion is that one may briefly open/close a refrigerator door on Shabbos (e.g. to take out food) despite the chance that the compressor may start up as a result of opening the door. I assume the same applies to the water pump issue you mentioned.
Regarding your description of the meter usage being transmitted four times daily, that does not seem to have a bearing on the usage of water (other than, of course, what particular number is transmitted).
@Lauren18 @the muffin man.
Lauren, As someone that understands things you bring up a very valid point. I’m not a rabbi, and i highly suggest that you ask your LOR. here are a few things that make water very different. 1 melocho sheano tzricha, 2 maleches machsheves, 3. For most people its misasek as well.
In addition most water meters are not electric. even if they have an electric transmitter
And aren’t these the same Rabbonim who bash YWN left and right??
…because of the comments section