11 Responses

1. Listen Stanely, let’s lower taxes first so we have a business friendly environment in Israel to create more jobs. Don’t talk about these guys going to work when you don’t have jobs. When Hi-Tech is tanking and YOU, yes YOU, Stanley predicted pitifully slow growth this coming fiscal year, spare us you trite suggestions. If you are embarrassed about the poverty in Israel, make practical suggestions, not moronic ones.

2. 1. One could substantially increase the percentage of “employed” by Hareidim by counting teachers (and students) as employed as long as they are receiving money from a kollel (as opposed to merely paying no tuition, and receiving a place to sleep and eat). They are the equivalent of professors or graduate assistants in universities, who are counted as employed.

   2. Most jobs in Israel, at least those with good pay, require one to serve in the army. The army is seriously anti-religious, and in fact those religious who serve in the army usually do so in “Jim Crow” type segregated units. Either spending three years in yeshiva (receiving only room and board) should be considered alternative service, or Hareidim should be exempt from the military on grounds of being “incompatible” with fitting into a secular military – as is the situation in the United States. They should also consider three or fours years of full time learning to be the equivalent of a B.A. degree in humanities from a university (which in fact, is how it is in the US) – if applying for an office job with a few years in yeshiva, you are the equivalent of someone with a Jewish studies B.A. whereas in Israel the yeshiva person is considered a high school drop out, as opposed to someone with multiple years of higher education.

   3. Israel should have a law, similar to the United States, prohibting discrimination on the basis of being religious (including creating a “hostile work environment”), and develop a culture of religious toleration similar to the United States. For a Hareidim to seek work in Israel is like for an African American to have looked for work in the Jim Crow period (sorry for the analogy, but in reality, we are the “niggers” of Israel under the current regime).

   4. Realize that Stanley Fischer, like most of the Israeli elite, regards the continued existence of Hareidim as an “existential” threat to the state of Israel and to zionism, and sees us as mortal enemies, and would oppose learning Torah regardless of what we did. They don’t mind the Sefardim since most of them agree to be the lower class so he and his kind can be the elite, but we don’t play along with the social pyramid that zionism has built. In the long run, we can have peace with the Muslims, but will never have peace with the hilonim.

3. Chazal teach that parnasa comes from Hashem. Before people start complaining about the Kollelites going out to work let them start learning Torah. [I’m sure that’ll stifle a lot of haughty people.]

   Stanley wants us to work. Well we want him to learn Torah and do mitzvas. It’ll be a lot easier for him to learn Torah than to find us jobs.

   Let’s not forget that we live for only 70 to 80 years (on the average). Afterward, we go to Olam HaEmes and reap what we sowed. If your focus your whole life is “money” you’re going to find yourself very poor in the next world.

   True, your couch will be more comfortable this whole time and you’ll have a stomach ache from all the food you stuff your face with, but in the end your life won’t have been as meaningful as it would have been if your concentration was on perfecting yourself according to the Torah guidelines.

   Lfi Anius Daatei – the problem is not that people are in kollel, but rather that the kollelites need to be margesh the tremendous responsibility that lies on their shoulders. I think it was the Chofetz Chaim that said that “when a ben yeshiva slacks off in Radin a yid in Berlin is Michalal Shabbos.”

   Kol Yisael areivim zeh l’zeh!

4. # 2: Dude, getting a job is not a “moronic” suggestion.

   Some of the greatest Tzadikkim of yesteryear would work and then learn in the morning or night. This includes Tannaim and Amoroim. Are we greater than them?

5. “Realize that Stanley Fischer, like most of the Israeli elite, regards the continued existence of Hareidim as an “existential” threat to the state of Israel and to zionism, and sees us as mortal enemies, and would oppose learning Torah regardless of what we did”.
   NEVER HEARD that alluded to from Mr. Fishcher in any of his writings or talks. I assume you have if you are writing so~~~~~
   Much change is needed in the working enviornment in Israel, reduction of taxes, better training for unemployed, increase in kosher working places, etc. which will open the door to availabilty of jobs for charedeim.

6. And the Chofetz Chaim as well.

   While it is the highest of goals to spend one’s time living and learning Torah uninterupted, it is also not “evil” to have a parnasa. Saying Hashem will provide does not mean money will fall from trees. These are extremely harsh economic times, and many of the tzedakahs that have helped kollel yungermen survive may now dry up. Think of a job in the same sense as leaving over a part of your field. The Torah clearly wants us to be able to support ourselves, albeit, without excessive materialism.

7. with all due respect, as much as many people here want to paint mr. fischer as being “anti-torah” or “anti-chareidi” etc., let’s take a step back and think about what he is saying.
   mr. fischer is simply pointing out something we all already know – economically, times are very tough right now (and possibly getting tougher), and therefore it is becoming more and more difficult (if not already impossible) for chareidim to continue living a lifestyle and in a society which shuns all forms of employment.
   while it is human nature to become defensive when someone points out one of your flaws or shortcomings, we are taught “kabel es ha’emes mimi she’omro”. the bottom line is that mr. fischer is right – chareidi society is in very serious economic danger (and has been for some time already). if, instead of mr. fischer saying it, a rosh yeshiva or godol had made the same statement – would we be sitting here coming up with all sorts of s’voros why he is wrong (“its much easier for the rosh yeshiva to learn more torah than it is for me to get a job”)?? narishkeit!
   while it may be difficult for us to hear, mr. fischer is not attacking or judging chareidim. he is pointing out the stark economic reality, perhaps, in part, out of his concern for them. i don’t think most normal people (from or secular) revel is someone else’s misfortune. if the chareidim do better economically, this benefits the whole country (and it will certainly benefit chareidi society and torah that much moreso).
   the bottom line is that mr. fischer has a job and an income. i’m sure he can put food on the table at night. we can choose to tar and feather him if we want, and accuse him of being “anti-torah”, etc…but at the end of the day, economic realities are what they are. if the economy continues on its current path, there will come a breaking point (if it hasn’t come already). i think we need to contemplate what ‘ein kemach ein torah’ means in its most BASIC sense. if we can no longer afford to eat (literally), there won’t be much torah being learned.

8. To #5 — It is moronic to suggest going to work is a SOLUTION when you have not dealt with the bigger picture. NOT that going to work is moronic–of course you need to work if you have no means of support.
   Many more Charedim are in fact getting job training and entering the workforce. However the government is currently stifling that growth with high taxes and not encouraging small business growth. Nevertheless, to all M.O.T.Ts, please continue to make Aliyah so your voice can be heard and help change the society from within. The fact is, things will only be getting better in Israel.

9. Zalmy (& all who agree with him) –

   I agree that saying he’s “anti-torah” or “anti-chareidi” and we cannot jump to that conclusion based on this statement.

   However, regarding the topic under discussion – if they haven’t, there is a reason the gedolim are not the ones saying it. Whether it’s Stanley Fischer or any of us – none of us have the authority to say what “all chareidim”, or all frum people, or all Jews, SHOULD do. However, there is no question that for SOME (not all), gedolim do feel that in our generation we need some people (those who have the talent, hasmada, ratzon, or whatever other criteria the gedolim deem appropriate) to stay in learning – and yes, even when they are 35 or 40 with 5 or 7 kids. Without them there would never be a Rav Elyashiv, a Rav Scheinberg, a Rav Kanievsky, or many other gedolim today….and not everyone who learns full time will become a gadol.

   To the person who mentioned the amoraim, many rabbonim say that in this generation it’s a horaas sha’ah and that they won’t be able to reach real havana in torah unless they are insulated in the torah bubble.

   However, whoever does need to work and is kovea itim and/or supports Torah, there is no question they have a huge chelek in olam habah….and some who support several may have an even greater chelek than those learning full time.

   But there is supposed to be both Zevulun & Yissachar in Klal Yisrael. Each person should ask their own daas torah what is the right path FOR THEM.

10. I agree that saying he’s “anti-torah” or “anti-chareidi” IS WRONG and…

11. Maybe the Agudath needs to open a program like Cope Institute (from which I am a graduate) in Yerushalayim. It provides professional training in a highly kosher environment. If we can do that here, why can’t it be done in Israel as well?