It pains us to post the following editorial submitted to YWN, but we were left with no alternative……
What act, or lack of an act, does Yeshiva University need to commit that would make the G-d fearing Torah scholars on its faculty resign?!
I pose this question pursuant to today’s NY Post (which is currently linked on the Drudgereport).
The article:
A Yeshiva University professor left two years ago as a man – and returned last week as a woman.
Yes, you read correctly. Cont.
Literature Professor Joy Ladin, formerly known as Jay Ladin, 47, showed up for her first day of school dressed as a woman (edited). She cheerfully strutted through the doors of the Midtown campus’ main building, where she oversees the writing center.
She “oversees”… Cont.
Many at the Jewish University are horrified by the presence of the transgender professor. Some fear the news could cut alumni donations.
People know it’s a JEWISH university. Who on the board I wonder (look them up) would cut their funding? Cont.
“He’s not a woman. He’s a male (edited),” said Rabbi Moshe Tendler, a senior dean at Yeshiva’s rabbinical school and a professor of biology and medical ethics. “He’s a person who represents a kind of amorality which runs counter to everything Yeshiva University stands for. There is just no leeway in Jewish law for a transgender.
“There is no niche where he can hide out as a female without being in massive violation of Torah law, Torah ethics and Torah morality.”
So what precisely is Rabbi Tendler doing about this “massive violation”? Is YU also in massive violation by having Ladin: on their payroll, TEACHING and OVERSEEING their students? cont.
….The conflict with the university started at the end of 2006, three years after Ladin joined the faculty. Less than two weeks after the university gave the celebrated poetry and literature professor tenure, she told them that she was transgender and in the process of becoming a woman. The university placed Ladin on indefinite leave, according to faculty members, who requested anonymity. After months of heated debate among Rabbis, Administrators, Ladin and her lawyers, the university agreed to let her return, according to sources close to the negotiations. No one from the school would comment officially, but many faculty members, who spoke anonymously, said the decision was legally motivated. “They didn’t have a choice unless they wanted to be embroiled in a legal battle,” said one faculty member.
Why not be “embroiled”? If it’s because of money, didn’t YU just brake its own fundraising records (reported HERE on YWN)? cont.
….Although some rabbis are outraged by Ladin’s return-
How “outraged”? Who are they “outraged” at? What are they going to do about their “outrage”? Cont.
…..many students are celebrating.
…..students named Sarah and Shaynde! Cont.
…..University President Richard Joel declined comment, except to say, “I’m proud of my university and all my faculty.”
“proud….ALL my faculty”, Ladin is certainly thankful of that.
That’s it Richard Joel would say.
What are YU’s Rabbonim going to DO – not say- about all this??!!
(Editorial by: Ed Freeds – YWN)
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NOTE: The views expressed in this column reflect the opinions of the individual writers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Yeshiva World News LLC.
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164 Responses
Why in heaven’s name is this on here?????This is disgusting.
That’s your problem? Why is your problem not with YU?
You are part of the problem.
if only rav gifter zl and rav miller zl could be brought back for a few hours to deal with these creeps…….
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MONEY $$$$$$$$$
These “unterveltnicks” have sold their souls for money
I am not a YU type person at all, and I go each week to Rabbi Herschel Scachter’s shiur in Flatbush each week. The man is a goan olam. How come we have not any public outcry from him?
And yes, I will be asking him this question by the next shiur.
This is terrible.
This is nothing new. YU has been accepting mishkav zachar openly for years. this is just icing on the cake.
What a disgrace.
This is post is despicable. Since when is YW in the business of posting stories that criticize yeshivas? And if so, I expect many others about other yeshivas.
Glad I’m not doing PR for Y.U. today. B”H I dodged THAT bullet. Yech!
I am a YU graduate currently working as a doctor in a prestigious NYC hopital.
I must say that I am considering mailing back my diploma to them.
sickening
But one suggestion Ed Freeds and the YWN folks – your piece needs some editing – it’s got some grammatical errors.
If YU wants to be accepted as a goyish university, and compete in the same league as the “ivy league”, it has to be open to non-frum professors, even “eunuchs”. It does have the alternative of being a “religious institution” (as some parts of the university already are), but that means in competes in the “minor” league with schools such as Oral Roberts, Bringham Young, or some of the Catholic Schools that have a religious requirement (many only have it for theology professors). It is interesting that in the US, most frum Jews who want a secular degree prefer going to non-Jewish institutions, which suggests that perhaps YU could probably get away by changing focus from trying to be a Jewish equivalent of Columbia (which is what led to this situation), and by being a religious institution it would have less prestige among the frei (and goyish) academic world, but could have a religious test for faculty in all subjects.
HOLY MOLEY THIS ONE IS A WINNER !!!!!!
What a tremendous busha to the entire Klal Yisroel
this is a federal funds issue.
if they lose federal funding because of liberal hiring requirements, their budget will sink.
To all the MO who feel that this is article is unfair, despicable & obnoxious:
Don’t you realize that this “it” (for lack of a better description) is still Halachically a male. He also has the dubious honor of having transgressed the prohibition of castration. Technically, he still is forbidden to be alone with YOUR wife, YOUR mother , YOUR sister & YOUR daughter.
Do you really want somebody who flaunts HIS disdain & disregard for the Torah to be a teacher in any Jewish institution?
I am disappointed in YWN for posting such a salacious article. What is the reason? To gain readers? To bash YU? I agree with #7 and #12. The Rabbi Tendelr effectively voices an opinion criticizing the situation you bash him too (second time in a week), and very easy to criticize from the outside was is obviously a sticky legal situation that no one is happy with. What about all the Harbatzas Torah by YU and its Roshei Yeshiva? Where is that article?
thanks to yeshivaworld for having the guts to post this.
what sick people out ther.
and to give statements to the ny post of all places
AL EILA ANI BOCHIYA!
No shame at all in that place left. Just a bunch of loooooony-bins.
But don’t worry, “we” are the retarded extremists…..
I would believe if the chofetz chaim would not post this on his web site
Loshon-Horah
Is at least to everyone you would be Matzaref to minion in an airplane
Once you choose to publish this, you MUST cover inside problems of all yeshivos equally. Stop YU bias!
YW did not post a single story about pedophiles in yeshivas but it posts this? Why? I think the answer is obvious.
I wonder where the Town Crier and all the other YU folks are all of a sudden?
Eh?
In hiding?
STAY THERE.
#2 good comeback to #1.
I’m with #2 all the way.
Anyone who chooses to bash yw for posting this is an accessorry to this disgrace.
We must be moiche in loud clear voices.
I say it’s time that true Totah Jews stage a protest on the steps of YU
A few questions:
1) Has anyone attempted to check out the validity of the story? Or is this typical shoot from the hip?
2) Everyone is making a fuss about someone who clearly has personal issues (and how many of you don’t??) and no one is questioning why frum students are being taught literature??
I really appreciate this editorial by Harav Ed Freeds. He is a really special Yid and I thank him for bringing this to the forefront. I think Harav Freeds should be running Yeshiva University. He has great intellect and tzidkis and has the ability to inspire people way beyond the current Hanhallah at YU. He would certainly do teh right thing.
Before anyone jumps to any conclusions could some one please direct us all to comments made by Daas Torah on this subject. It is Elul after all. I’d hate to have speaking Lashon Harah or Motsei Sheimrah about an entire instituion being held against me if it’s not warranted.
SHAME ON YOU “YESHIVA WORLD”.
TO THE EDITOR OF YESHIVA WORLD: IT IS WITHOUT CERTAINTY THAT I SAY THIS- THERE IS A SPECIAL PLACE IN GEHENOM FOR YOU. A JEW WHO DOES NOTHING MORE WITH HIS TIME THEN SPREAD LASHAN HORA AND RECHILOS ABOUT OTHER JEWS AND JEWISH INSTITUTIONS. WE SIT HER IN CHODESH ELUL AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO POST ARTICLES ABOUT A LEFT WING ORGANIZATION THAT IS OBVIOUSLY NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING ACCORDING TO THE TORAH BUT WHY STIR THE POT AMONG THE JEWISH SECTS??
YOU ARE A FRAUD AND A DISGRACE TO THE JEWISH COMMUNITY AND TO MANKIND AS A WHOLE.
SHAME ON YOU
Notice how the best answer all of the YU people is “why didnt YWN cover Yeshiva abuse”.
Get a life.
Please answer this disgusting garbage. We want to see some jerk like DR Lamm come up with a valid heter for this chillul shem shomayim birabim!
#31: “A JEW WHO DOES NOTHING MORE WITH HIS TIME THEN SPREAD LASHAN HORA AND RECHILOS ABOUT OTHER JEWS AND JEWISH INSTITUTIONS”
Last I checked, any organization which transgresses the biggest aveiros in the Torah, and “embraces” this utter FILTH is NOT Jewish.
And, guess what? YWN has a chiyuv to protest this trash.
Gabbai — @ 3:31 pm Wrote:
“… and I go each week to Rabbi Herschel Scachter’s shiur in Flatbush … The man is a goan olam …. How come we have not any public outcry from him?
And yes, I will be asking him this question by the next shiur.”
i also attend every week and do not appreciate KLUTZ KASHES from the audience – that inevitably cause bitul torah – as the Rosh Yeshiva takes time out to answer those instead of engaging in limud ha torah
as to the issue at hand..
Welcome to the real world
The ghetto walls were torn down and we are now exposed to all type of things – some good (frum lawyers, doctors, accountants that pay full tuition at our institutions after earning degrees at YU and other collegees) and some bad
GET OVER IT
GROW UP
“you MUST cover inside problems of all yeshivos equally”–tesvov
Don’t insult our Holy Yeshivos by placing them in same category as that Reform Institution, Y.U.!
Just for the record.
Let’s all calm down
sorry to tell you but chilul shabos is much worsh then this. so since chilul shabos is ok then they should be able to handle this also.
yw, be strong. ignore the empty attacks.
you are a good jew for stepping upto the plate and opening your mouth.
and i too would like to know where the Town Crier and his pals are now.
Oh, they are probably in “its” class now.
feh.
I too graduated from YU in the time of the Rov ZTL. I can tell you that he is turning over in his grave.
Conservative Judaism is ten years behind the reform. Modern orthodox is 30 years behind conservative Judaism. Like Reb Nafroli Trop says about the status of K’lal Yisroel before Matan Torah That they had a “DIN YISROEL” without “KEDUSHAS YISROEL” that is exactly what YU is today. Very sad
READ THIS QUOTE:
“I think it’s fabulous and wonderful. I don’t know of any other religiously conservative university that employs someone trans,” said Mara Keisling, executive director of the National Center for Transgender Equality.
Even these sodomites own perverse support groups know that a Christian religious university would never employ such a pig. Even THEY are (happily) surprised that YU is employing this pig.
It’s really amazing how this creates such an outcry. As mentioned above – there are Shabbos desecrators, people who don’t keep kosher, people who are cheating businessmen and lying witnesses, and much, much worse teaching in many yeshivas.
But the biggest outcry here is for this nonsense. Why is that?
I don’t see what the fuss is all about… YU ceased being a place of Torah years ago…it has become like those places you drive by, in east New York and the Bronx, big magnificent looking edifices with the Luchos and the Star of david still on the masonry…
Does anyone think that a REAL Makom Torah can raise hundreds of millions of dollars??
Does anyone think that a REAL Makom Torah would have an endowment on over 4 BILLION dollars?? (Not a misprint)
YU is an excellent academy of high secular education, striving to be like NYU and that’s what it is. nothing more, nothing less…
I see that Rabbi Tendler will put his neck out when it comes to challenging Rav Elyashiv and Rav Chaim Kanievsky, but for this creature, he’ll just make a halachic proclomation and leave it at that!
Who knows if there is not a mida kneged mida here. Last week, he said that a psak fom gedolim isn’t really a psak, and doesn’t need to be listened to. This week, he (sort of) issues a psak, and his own university is ignoring him.
I am not MO nor a fan of YU in the least. That being said, I am struggling to understand why the yeshivaworld website would post this story.
First, as some people pointed out already, all this does is make people point fingers at YU rather than introspect. It’s Elul. Klal Yisroel has better things to do than focus on this story, albeit shameful.
Second, no one is disputing the disgrace of this story. But can someone please explain to me what heter there is to bash the Roshei Yeshivos for not doing anything when this story just hit the press. YU started last week. Has the author of this editorial contact the Roshei Yeshiva? This seems to be a terrible violation of dan l’kaf zechus and Loshon Hara.
Third, to those who say that “WE NEED TO BE MOCHE”…You can’t be serious. What does YU care about your machaa. This is almost as big a joke as when YW was moche about “Yeshiva” Chovevei Torah.
Can’t we just focus on bettering ourselves?
46- “This is almost as big a joke as when YW was moche about “Yeshiva” Chovevei Torah.”
YW was never moche against the, the Yated was. Get your facts straight.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=5269
i’m sure “rabbi” avi weiss over at chovivei has some heter for this too
Tzitzisboy (comment #40) you are so right, so what about Frum Judaism. Or do you propose that Frum Judaism doesn’t change? It is true Judaism?
One thing that is scarier then the people who are posting on this thread is in-breeding. In the Frum micro-world, we are seeing lower IQ’s, more special needs children and cancer numbers that are off the charts. Frum Jews may remain “authentic” but in the generations to come, may die off.
You forgot YU’s worst crime: some of their talmidim get jobs.
WHAT DO YOU ALL WANT YU TO DO, FIRE THIS PROFESSOR?
IT WOULD BE AGAINST HIS/HER/IT’S CIVIL RIGHTS .
IT IS LIKE FIRING A WOMAN FOR BEING PREGNANT. UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS THE AGE WE LIVE IN , AND EVERYTHING GOES.
The YU presidency in the past was occupied by talmidei chachomim. It is now occupied by one who is primarily interested in showcasing YU as a “progressive” university.
So is Tendler stating a Halachik opinion or a political opinion?
#43 – “biggest yeshiva in the world”
That refer to be school located in upper Manhattan. The “eunuch” (as it appears from the press account), is working for a different corporation, teaching writing in a non-yeshiva college (that is frum-friendly but is not structured as a religious institution).
Like many businesses today, YU has many subsidiaries, and not unlike some frum businesses, the standards are not consistent between then (and by the way, is it clear it would be prohibited from hiring a eunuch who dresses as a woman to teach a secular subject). YU could treat the whole university as a frum institution (as it does the yeshiva parts), but the degrees would be worth less if they excluded non-frum teachers and students (though I believe Stern has an all frum student body).
OK boys and girls, its time to grow up. There are people out there that are not like us. And we have to learn how to live with it. I would rather be part of YU’s derech of being a real university and getting money from the Goverment than getting money from every guy who needs koved in our community.
The homophobia and other silly phobias is a little silly. If you do not want to be like that then don’t. But realize we live in the real world.
Not all of us can hide in Lakewood, Monroe and Bnei Brak. If we hide there, we would have to watch our children go off the derech.
Grow up!
evbazarov – gut g’zukt
I am blown away at the pent up rage that comes out in the public when a sticky topic as this one arrises. Most of the comments sre from people with personal interests for or against yu. This is only an outlet to express your anger and unhappiness.
Left brooklyn comment # 50, “cancer numbers that are off the charts” you are a sick puppy and are off the wall. Hey Brooklyn, good riddance for this whack job. Do you know what you wrote? You personiffy what I’m saying. May you be zoche to do teshuva shelaimah.
What people don’t realize is that this didn’t happen overnight. Yu has been going in this path over the last 30 years and this is just the latest of yeridos and mapalos.
Ask any real talmid of the Rav Zatza”l and they will tell you that they are embarrased of their yeshiva.
Yes, you will get the 2 or 3 people who write books and interpert the Rav the way they like to. The majority of TORAH talmidim of the Rav who learned by him and grew are ashamed beyond belief.
How do I know? I come from a YU family that are highly educated ( Torah and secular) and they are speechless and dejected.
If you think that YU offers a healthy well rounded education send your dearest there. If you think that a yeshiva is the place to nurture your long term investment, send him there.
Anyway, why did the Yu’nik cross the road?
To get his degree.
Why did the yeshiva boy cross the road?
To get some chilutz atzamos and to be mekarev the yu’nik.
To number 35, number 44 and others who share your sentiments:
You don’t know what you are talking about, and the hate (yes hate) that you are spewing for a Yeshiva and by extension its Rashei Yeshiva and talmidim is something that you will have to answer for. There is so much Torah taught, learned and spread by Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yitzcok Elchanan, and so many people who have benefited and continue to benefit from it, and then some sad disturbed person victimizes the institution (no doubt purposely because these people often target religious institutions) by applying for a job at the women’s college in his natural body and and then going against the the teva. Life is complicated and this is something YU is going to have to deal with, and I guarantee you that they will do so in consulation with their roshei yeshiva and with gedolim. But your comments are hateful and you are futhering machlokes in yisroel and especially among bnei Torah, of wehich there are many learning in the Batei Medrash at YU, and as well from the many talmidim and Rabbonim who have learned there. Again, life is complicated, and when these types of issues arise, especially when we are a traget of people who love nothing more than to hurt us by attacking us becuase they know they will create a tumult, we have to make sure not to divide against each other by bringing rise to old debates which have been debated by people far greater than us for many years (Torah Umddah, seculare studies etc.). You can choose to act like an ignoramus and vilify hundereds of other yidden or you can can choose the proper path. I challenge you to drop in unannounced any night of the week in the Bais Medresh on Amsterdam Avenue, and just sit and learn. Or you can continue the ignorant “us versus them attitude” which is sure to delay Moshicah R”L much more than some disturbed apostate individual who is likely already celebrating over the machlokes he has managed to cause among thr am hanivchar.
And as for YW News, why don’t you take a field trip to YU, and meet with some of the Rashei yeshiva and check out the Beis medresh, and write an articel about your experience.
YW should not be posting this at all as it doesn’t pertain to us, is vulger, and not for general consumption. Need we put ratings for children on this websight?
It seems to be very easy to comment about yenems hoiz. What about the Rebbeim that molesting the young children? and the mosdos are hiding and protecting them? and the mechallelei shabbos that are sending tzedaka and underwriting yeshivas up to and including having their names on the front of the beis medrash or yeshiva?
Its time for us to start dealing with our individual daled amos and make sure we have that in order. The Ribbono Shel Olom is more than capable of determining the yosher of everyones actions. The first beis hamikdosh was charuv for 70 years because of giluy arayos, shfichas damim and avoda zarah. The second bayis is charuv almost 2000 years because of relationships bayn adam lachaveiro.
What will it take to learn?
Gmar chatima tova and a git gebencht yohr to all.
kudos to YW for having the courage to publicize this.
yasher koach
but if you wish to take this stand against YU you need to take a long hard look at the molesters in the yeshivas and those who live in lakewood monsey BP flatbush and EY that unfortunately do much more damage to torah then this sick individual.
one asked years ago from one of the holy tzddikim of our genration about 25 years ago when someone left in their will $30,000,000 (?) for this misfit univercity, how come ehrliche moisdos have to struggle while such ..get such big amounts so he answered the koiech of kedusha has to struggle more as the other side that have help from the sitre achre ,and dont forget the “g-y club scandel they had 15 years ago yes, with products like cantor esg not surprizing. also saw recently b’shem the holy ‘minchus elozor’..he said a charpeh and bushe that the hagoan hagodol rabbinu yitzchock elchonon spectors name has to be farshmired with such place ans that was 80 (?) years ago
FEIF UN:
What about when this mamzer of a man goes into the women’s room? Aside from all the halachic problems with it, you have no objection’s to a man using a woman’s room?
to 56 evbazarov..you have plenty who ‘grew’ up they are called modern orthodox, centrist, consevative, reform, and lets not forget the original one christsianity, but we will stay immature and follow the derech hatorah, evbazarov
wow…
Question to the fuming masses- is this guy/girl Jewish? If not- is it our business/should we care about all of this?
to all for the upteenth time..moitzi shem rah is not when its true! lashon harah is not when its a known fact! and those who mock our holy torah is a mitzvah lfarsem and parshes shoftim is full of such examples! and for the upteenth time.. we see all posters who knock on ehrliche yidden ‘conniving, tax evaders etc’ {huh cantor and ilk’} are the first to yell ‘ahavas yisroel, lashan horah moitze shem rah etc’ to protect those who mock the holy torah and say we should ‘grow’ up { aka actually grow OUT of the holy ‘primitive’ ‘backward’ torah afre l’pima
also a gadol is not measured by ‘he forgot more torah then you’ll ever learn’ a gadol is nmeasured by ‘im hurav dome l’malach hasheM tzevouos ..yevakshu torah mipiv .VEIM LAV !! ” CHULIN 7A (?)
unclear why this is making a bigger uproar and is different than (i) other cases where various persons working in right wing Yeshivos have continued to be employed in the face of fiscal realities or (ii) when various religious political parties in Israel join forces with secular parties for fiscal considerations
Also, has anyone on this site bothered to look into the halachik status and implications of such a person?
Feif Un: Can you maybe tell us …….. how you know what a “woman’s room” looks like?
SHAME ON YOU5!!!
jj,
PERHAPS Feif Un is a woman so she knows what a women’s room looks like. And she feels there is nothing wrong with JAY Ladin using the same restroom as her.
Feif Un #71
and you’re saying that it’s not?
ayin tov:
“I am blown away at the pent up rage that comes out in the public when a sticky topic as this one arrises.”
And what would you call your comments?
#76
His halachic status and implications of his actions:
He is assur lovoi b’kohol because of his status of a kris shofcho.
#5,
Don’t know why you wondering at Rabbi Schechter for not doing anything.
I have a copy of an interview he gave a few years back saying that WOMAN may al pi tora be Rabbi’s.
So what’s the difference if the teacher was a HE or is now a SHE; either one may be a Rabbi !
P.S. If you want to see the copy, have theyeshivaworld email me the request and I will gladly forward to you.
I am currently a bochur in Yeshiva Rabbeinu Yitzchak Elchonan, also known as Yeshiva University, and i have to same, i am insulted at every single one of you, during chodesh elul to be so quick to point fingers. the gemara says first fix yourself and then fix others (beginning of gemara in bava basra), and elul stands for “ani lidodi vidodi li”. in addition we are less than a month past the destruction of the beis hamikdash which we all know was destroyed because of sinas chinam, and lashon hara is included with that, and as the gemara in yoma says that sinas chinam is just as bad as the big three. so let me ask you, how are you better than this person? if klal yisrael hates themselves, than kal vachomer, the rest of the world will hate us as well, and they do, just about. i would understand there is a problem if the person is teaching torah, as we see in chazal- im domeh limalach hashem, yivakshu torah mipiv, that there is an idea that our rabanim have to have the utmost middos, but i don’t think there is any idea of that for english teachers who are just there to teach us the subject AND THAT IS IT!!! YU is one of the greatest torah centers of the world, and i do not mean in size per say, but in quality and level of learning, and the mesiras nefesh is incredible. come into the beis medresh for any morning seder or night seder and you won’t find an open makom, please i invite you to come. come by at midnight and the beis is hoping. the rabbanim are the greatest in the world, even though no one is interested in the emes, of their torah and yirei shamayim but other things. go on YUtorah.org and hear their shiurim on shas, poskim and any subject of torah min hashamayim. why don’t we look at the upsides to Yu and not always the downsides of YU, which in reality, unfortunately no one and no institution is perfect.
YU is indefensible. Numerous Gedolim have spoken out against YU, and for very good reason. Those raising their voices against this institution are in very good company. The Torah cannot remain silent in the face of public and brazen smacks against the Torah in its name, no less!
The College part of YU is legally disconnected from RIETS for various reasons. Because of this those schools have to be careful of all the regular legal stuff. If they fire this person YU would be slapped with a big law suit. I am sure, if this story is true, that they are trying to work it out. Why not have patience and hope they can. Everyone is so eager to say negative comments they forget about trying to help another jew.
Wow!!! So many posts, so quickly. If this had not made the NY Post, how many people would have known about it? How many people know EVERYTHING about everyone who works in EVERY yeshiva??? Last time I checked, only Hashem knows everything. Clearly this person is a sick individual, by Torah standards, if not most of the world’s standards as well. And clearly YU was tricked into granting tenure to this person who only afterwards decided to announce the plan. Is there any doubt at all, that had YU known about this BEFORE tenure was granted, they NEVER would have granted tenure???!? If something like this happened at Touro (do they even grant tenure?) or Chaim Berlin (not really the same since they don’t know from tenure) what would they have done? And before everyone jumps on me about all the Bnei Torah there etc., both Touro and Chaim Berlin get plenty of donations from the non-frum world.
Norman Lamm ought to be ashamed of himself!
the Aibeshter all made us in his own image. Remember that when you type and write certain things. Do you think the Melech Malchei Hamlachim would use the words and phrases people here are using? The same Melech that happens to also be B’sodeh right now in Chodesh Elul.
#81,
I don’t know.
You tell me.
But lemaaseh 81, you gotta agree that it’s incredible!!
I mean, we now have the YU on YWN.com crises!!
Gabbai & Dontbeagolem
I am looking forward in hearing the two of you question Rabbi Fishel Schachter this coming Wed. night.
For those of you who have heard Rabbi Schachter in the past or watch him on Torahanytime.org and would like to join us every wed. night at Yeshivas Ohr Yitzchok east 15th between ave L-M time aprox. 10.00pm.
This topic is way out of control. Maybe it shouldn’t have been posted. What really disgusts me is again the personal attack from this issue on R Tendler!! He has done what no one else has done and is TOTALLY CONSISTENT – he speaks his mind on his understanding of Torah! You may not agree with him ever, but why would you attack him here and now (or ever)! You don’t think he risked his job speaking out against his employer in public (and btw, he doesnt get paid by his shul so this is how he feeds himself) – but that didn’t stop him. Just like he risks alot everytime he speaks out with his opinion – thats how he is. But not one word of credit here, just ridicule. You big talkers – would you risk throwing away your parnassa like he just did? You think Joel is happy with him? You think RT thought about the dozens of children and grnadchildren he has learning in Kollel’s in Eretz Yisroel that he supports, the way ? No. If its against his understanding of Halachah, he doesnt care. So whether you agree with him on anything, to use this issue to ridicule him is simple RISHUS.
yu or yw wich one are you ?????
this artical belongs in the filth halls not on an orthodox web site
shame on you YU or YW wich ever one you realy are
yubochur613 what are you talking about! theres a big differents between not being perfect and this.
The Rosh Yeshiva will be giving shiur next week from the other side of the mechitza.
to pashute yid let cantor esr worry about the holy divrei yoel be miochel him as he referred to him as ‘the ultimate in hypocrecy’his words..and we will not bother to link.. find it your self he should remember the gemmorah broches we reffered many times what happens to ‘hamsper achrei mitoseon shel tzaddikum’ kal vochomer an apikores like cantor andwhy this discription of him we referred plenty times to his postings and you and some others are pretty much in his league and dont come crying with this elill busines .you cannot esbe a toivel veochas shretz byodo..
to not so pashute yid..how come such ‘meshugene ‘ professor doesnt end up lets say in a place like chaim berlin, lakewood.. also you rpost is full of apikorses anti torah haskofosas usual, but from where you come from as you elaborated yourself way back it not surprizing ,..
the town crier doesnt have time to waste…except when it comes to hock on ehrliche yidden, see ‘crown heights man’ article april 23 (?)
34 & 56-
To grow up means to stand up for what is right and against what is wrong. This type of behavior is wrong and genuinely bad, just like any other crime. It is destructive to the body & the soul. If the arrogant secular media decided there was nothing wrong with killing, would you also oppose “homocidephobia”? If you had lived in Nazi Germany, would you tell people to “grow up” and kill Jews because that was the “new world”?
When are the yirei shamayim rebbemim striking and leaving their jobs from the SATMAR YESHIVA, where the menehel (principal) is you know what????????????
This is one of the problems that arises when it is a University connected with a Yeshiva with certain funding. HOWEVER, what about when other Yeshivas have other scandals, abuse, money laundering, do they protest against the hanhalah. Does the hanhala fire the rebbeim involved.
What do you think about that?
Yes, one shouldn’t have a “it” as a professor, but what about rabbeim who are abusing kids. Do you want me to list the yeshivas and rabbeim who have been involved in this stuff and still there. Or the geneivah that occurs and nobody has a problem with that.
Why dont’ you post that as well. Emes is Emes.
To #59
You didn’t understand my post.
I’m not saying there aren’t people learning in YU, of course there are!
Probably hundreds (if not thousands) but my dear fellow, there are also people learning on the subways, does that make the f train a Makom Torah? No. the Real Makom Torah’s are in the Yeshiva’s the ones that has the electricity shut off because it doesn’t have the money to pay the electric bill, the ones where the Rosh Yeshiva’s knock on door’s (on yes, YU grads doors for funds) the yeshiva’s that really struggle those are the REAL Makom Torah’s. I’m sorry, I know you’re an erlich guy, but a place as rich as YU, (let me repeat, they have an endowment of over 4 BILLION DOLLARS) and to compound that fact they have on the faculty people who in the open, with zeal, display their abomination for all to see?! This is a Makom Torah? I say not.
I was under the impression that YWN posted the news pertaining to the yeshiva world so we didn’t have to read the sh’tus out there.
I know I sound naive and by no means am innocent to believe that these kinds of things are not happening in the Yeshiva world, but how exactly is this important for me to know?
If you want me to say “Oy vey, what has the world come to, we need Moshiach to come now.” then you have succeeded. However, I will have to consider filtering the information I get from this website.
Just because the news is about a Jewish organization, does not make it newsworthy and fit to be posted on this site. I hope that YWN will seriously consider leaving out these kinds of posts from now on or I will have to seriously consider going elsewhere for my news.
Perhaps the best answer to this whole thing is the growth of Touro. Frum people who want a college education in a Torah environment are no longer looking to YU as the place to go.
A Yeshiva cannot be a University.
A University cannot be a Yeshiva.
Also consider the following:
Y.U. allows “Toeiva” Student Clubs at its Cordoza Law School and at its School of Social Work, so as not to jeopordize its million dollar federal grants.
Catholic-rooted schools such as Notre Dame and Fordham say “no thanks” to the federal grants.
What do the so-called REITS Roshei Yeshiva say about that?
Pashuteh Yid, I am surprised at your comment. There are many yeshivos (referred to, by some, as “College Yeshivos”) that allow and/or encourage their talmidim to earn college degrees. And Touro college offers degrees that can be earned while still studying full-time in Yeshiva and its sister school, Lander College, offers an academic structure similar to YU, but with a different hashkafa.
For you to state “BTW, any objections to YU are just a cover-up for objections to any secular studies at all” is to be dishonest. Some of YU’s ideals and policies are unacceptable to the non-MO, and, therefore, there is certainly legitimate reason for one to disagree with YU.
Let’s keep the discussion honest, even if opinionated.
why dont we take a step back and realize who were talking about here – a bunch of chazers – why would it surprise us that they have stooped this low? – I wonder if tendler is talking halacha over here or is he leaving that to the experts this time around
dear holykugel, what does beng poor have to do with being a makom Torah? Secondly while given Its large endowment, why cant other yeshivas be as ambitous fundraisers. it was not until the mid 1980’s when norman lamm made fundrasing a priorty that Yu was solvent, bichlal the jewish community as a whole has enough money tosupport and subsidize yeshiva tuition if we made it a real priority. Thirdly I would like to point out that a friend of mine wanted to sit and learn but did not have a rich family nor rich inlaws he went to learn in the YU kolel as it is no secret due to their large endowment that they use money to pay Riets bochurim very well and also give subsidized housing. you would be suprised to see how many black hats are learning there. by the way, lakewood mir chaim berlin tora vodaas etc…also have vast support it is just on an individual level i.e parents/inlaws covering many things such as money healthcare housing etc…. most people learning in those yeshivas have subsidized cost of living ranging anywhere from 12-50,000 dollars per year plus abiet small a kollel stipend. so if the yeshivas were to have to pay out instead of their bochurms famlies and inlaws,they would have to raise the same amount of money per year as riets does. (remember yu’s total endowment covers dozens of schools and programs) additionally, all the aforementoned Yeshvas charge room board education expenses for beis medrash prior to kolel a time span that could be anywhere between a few years and a decade, while a bright talmid attendng riets can get a tremendous beis medrash scholarship prior to kollel. Lastly, I am hoping that given YUs vast monetary resources, they will fight this. the only other way to fight this would be for students to drop his/her classes and stage protests, so he/she could not function as a teacher anymore. And to people that questoned how come this does not happen in other Yeshivas, I personally know of a case where a boys yeshiva had a hard time with an englsh teacher of questonable orientation, in the end Hashem had Rachmanus and the teacher decided to quit.In a frum organization that I have worked for there was also a problem with a certain employee rabbonim and lawyers were consulted, and we were able to get rid of the person by keeping tabs on her job performance and having a paper trail of proof of performng her job poorly otherwise are hands would have been tied. So here’s hoping the students hand in poor performance reviews. Lastly, here’s hoping this person cures himself and is able to do teshuva and holykugel, I agree it is truly unfortunate sad and disturbing that many roshei Yeshva have to spend their tme begging just to make payroll rather then focusing on their learning and talmidim
To holykugel:
I didn’t know there’s a chiyuv for a makom torah to be poor, meaning any yeshiva with money isn’t a makom torah. Is that really the hagdarah of a real makom torah? I’m sure the Roshei Yeshivah who run around to collect would rather have the money and in your opinion not be called a “makom torah” than be in the scenario that they are in now.
Again , Yeshiva World? more loshon hora in Elul? Shame on you for printing this. You are just inviting slander and sinas chinam.
I am not YU, but right wing. I personally think that anytime a yeshiva does something that is not on the up & up, it should be publically condemmed.
It doesn’t matter whether it is child molestation or transgender teachers. But one thing I agree with the YU defenders, how do you criticize the Rabbonim of YU- this seems to be a new or relatively new problem, so who says they won’t do anything about it? It definitely appears that some in my right wing camp have sinas chinom. The cases of molestation were/are going on for years, but all the rosh yeshivos involved did was sweep it under the carpet!
YU is not strictly a private yeshiva. Can they legally fire someone like this and not be subject to fines or disciplinary action from some college accredidation board?
It is sad that YU did what it did. But why don’t we notice what the Agudah is doing? The Agudah is backing a pro-Toeiva Hate Crimes bill in Washington DC. It backed the same type of bill, a Hate Crime’s bill, in New York State, several years ago. At that time I called up the Roshei Yeshiva and asked them about fighting the Hate Crime bill and they replied, “It is forbidden to fight the Hate Crimes Bill.” They explained, “We are against hate.”
I fought Mishkav Zachor with the backing of the gedolim of the past generations, some of them the father’s of today’s Rosh Yeshvivas. The past gedolim, Reb Moshe and Reb Yaacov, were very vociferous about fighting the Toeiva Lobby. The Toeiva in New York State now have a status of civil rights, which means they are a “compelling state interest.” That means, anyone who fights their welfare is fighting the state. A compelling state interest overrides freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of assembly. The Agudah and the Rosh Yeshivas are thus creating a situation where toeivo will be teaching in Yeshivas.
I discussed this with a lawyer for the New York State Senate. He told me that a Yeshiva must hire a toeivo, but may forbid the toeivo from talking certain things on campus. But once off campus, the toeivo teacher may call up the students and invite them over for the night, and the Yeshiva can do nothing.
Why is nobody fighting the Toeiva Lobby except a very, tiny group who remember the past Gedolim?
You can go to my website http://www.gendercentral.com to see a lot about these issues. If anyone wants to contact me my number is 845-578-1860.
Shalom
Dovid Eidensohn
Monsey, NY
How can you spot the letters by Yeshiva University graduates? They can spell YU.
I couldn’t read all the posts, so I’m not sure if someone else made this point. Forgive me if it’s a repeat.
The raging debate about whether this should be published, shouldn’t be published, is loshon hara, isn’t loshon hara and so on seems to miss the point.
I am not a “YU basher”. We must however take stock of certain facts. The “Y” in YU stands for Yeshiva. To the unlearned, this title suggests that it is a place representing Torah-true values. So, for beginners, it is well worth publicizing the institution’s divergence from those values so people are not misled to learn incorrect values.
It is also worth noting that YU is, for the most part, the citadel of “modern orthodoxy”. IMHO (which is not, alas, that humble) modern orthodoxy represents a serious threat to its adherents and to those who may seek a path in Yiddishkeit. By compromising Torah-true values, modern orthodoxy holds itself out as a genuine path in avodas Hashem, but ends up with quite a number of serious compromises. The result is the slippery slope effect that ultimately leads to having a toeva like this getting headlines in a major metropolitan newspaper.
Unlike our visionary leaders of the past, who closed down Yeshivos rather than compromise one iota with secular authorities, YU “leaders” decided some time ago to accept public financing, which requires them to compromise even the most fundamental issues of Yiddishkeit in favor of the “Almighty” dollar.
I have read a fair amount of the writings of some big rabbinic names among YU alumni and I can say without reservation that they are preaching a mixture of liberalism and Jewish ritual observance, elevating the emotionalism of modern social “progressive” thinking to par with halachic authority. This is prominent in writings about aguna problems, conversion disputes and other “touchy-feely” subjects.
As others mentioned Rav Miller would have spoken out about this. When one sees wrongdoing, we have an obligation to speak out. It does not mean that we should be cruel, malicious or filled with self-righteous anger. But Yiddishe neshamos are threatened by these developments and the name of Hashem is disgraced. We cannot be silent. Kol Hakavod to those who speak out.
Even though I too am usually opposed to the hashkafic stances of YU, I find it necessary to admonish the horrific comments posted to the Yeshiva World. It’s pashut lashon hara and the moderators must put in some hishtadlus in filtering out this filth. YU has produced legitimate talmidei chochomim and to just focus on the negative is disgusting, especially in Chodesh Elul. The yeshiva world of which I and many here are a part of, should always remember to look inwards instead of at any faults of others. Iy”h, with this mindset, we will be zoicheh to the geula shleima bimheira b’yomeinu.
I disagree with those that say that the YWN should not have published this. It is not lashon hora because it has already been made public by other means. We can’t make the story hidden again, all we can do is report it accurately to prevent any misinformation. YWN can give a more fair look at the situation than the regular media attacks on religion. This does not obligate YWN to publish every sad child molestation story. An official faculty policy decision is something completely different than an isolated child molester, which is obviously not up for debate and doesn’t need to be.
It would be great if YWN gave us the information the other sources aren’t telling us, such as what both sides of the story say. What does YU say in it’s defense? What do the rabbis opposed say about it? What is Norman Lamm’s take? What do other Jewish leaders in the Torah community have to say, if any of them have reached a conclusion on the matter?
This chillul hashem is one of the biggest I have seen. To see this posted in the major news media is disgusting and we Torah Jews need to stand up and announce to the world that we have no connection to this type of behavior.
YU or as many call it “yeshivas rabbenu yitzchok elchonon” have many roshei yeshiva who are great talmidei chachomim in their own right but for someone to call them “gedolei yisroel” is a bit of a stretch. Rabbi tendler stood up and made a “mechaa” but obviously it was just a show of protest and did not have “hashpaa” on anyone. Rabbi tendler, a great talmid chochom, the son-in-law of the great posek and GODOL HADOR has in the past done things against the psokim of the gedolei hador and even if he has a leg to stand on from a halachik standpoint, he should be “machniah” himself to the psak of the posek hador, maran hagaon rav eliyashiv shlita. In the issue of “metzitzah bepeh”, most poskim and gedolim argued on his psak and again even if he felt that from a halachik standpoint he had a leg to stand on, he should have been “machnia” himself.
Hagaon reb hershel schechter was pictured in the jewish media talking with rav eliyashiv and I wonder what the godol hador would tell him if he asked him what to do. My gut feeling is that he would pasken that it is ossur to allow this type of behavior in a school that is affiliated with reits and would tell him to quit his job. I also wonder what rav belsky feels about this. He sits with rav hershel schechter on the presidium of the “ou”. What does he feel about this? Let’s us hear from our gedolim.
I am sure that the roshei hayeshiva of reits for the past 100 years are turning over in their graves at hearing this. Hagaon r’ moshe solovetchik and his children and all the other choshuve roshei yeshiva that have served in this yeshiva are a testament to what the yeshiva was supposed to be and look where we are today. May hashem have rachmunus on us.
As far as i can tell from the actual article, the only thing this professor has violated is Beged Isha. It is not a good thing and raises many questions but it is not an endorsement. The article clearly states that YU tried to keep the professor out but has been “forced” at least temporarily to allow the professor to return.
Rabbosai, it is Elul. PLEASE stop the sinah.
STOP ALL DONATIONS TO YU!!!!!!!
The obscenity cannot continue for free. End the money heading to YU. DO NOT donate to the abomination in Torah’s name. Get your children out of YU! Tuition also pays for that miscreant to strut mioos before the world.
first he’s on the temple mount, belittling the gedolei hador, and now…
this is miyos, pure.
WHO SAID THIS MAN/WOMEN IS JEWISH???? AND ABOUT IT BEING LOSHAN HORA WHEN IT IS SUCH PUBLIC KNOLEDGE AND HE EVEN SAYS IT ABOUT ITSELF I AM NOT SURE IF IT IS CALLED LOSHAN HORA
not that i agree with yu did, but technically, if a professor in any of touros graduate schools decided to change is or her gender, and this teacher was tenured, there would be nothing they could do either. only difference is yu is 1000 times larger then touro, and 70 years older, so statistically it would happen in yu first. touro better learn from this, and somehow legally stop any foreseeable problem.
as for YU and their clubs, and this teacher, the yeshiva, know as yeshiva college and riets is technically not part of yu anymore. it is an affiliate, similar to say landers yeshiva and ohr hachaim to touro college. this is why teh roshei yeshiva dont care anymore what happens at yu. they washed their hands of it long ago, and forced the break off. for the few blaming norman lamm, though i dont agree with him, he had nothing to do with this. he is no longer in charge there.
If a particular issue is against the Torah,
then saying that it is wrong is NOT Lashon Hara, whether it’s about this transgender person, about the Rabbis who molest children in Yeshivas, or about Yeshivat Chovevei Torah.
Hey town crier,
You tell us that you have no time and especially in Elul.
You don’t stop posting thereafter turning yourself into the town liar.
You are addicted like a fly to a horse.
My my my, we’ve been busy haven’t we? I was out on trial yesterday and couldn’t comment. I’ll admit I’m perplexed by this story. It certainly is one of the more challenging things YU has done; challenging to me as someone who looks to “Washington Heights” for hadracha on how to live as a Jew in a chaotic world. I’m no longer repulsed by people like Ladin. After all Chazal ordained a bracha, “m’shaneh habriot” for such people. I find his choices anathema and wierd however. But my difficulty stems from the implication that an academic institution holds its faculoty out as role models for the students. That Stern College, part of the YU system has this person on the faculty, and given the now very public nature of the faculty position, it implies something about the values Stern seeks to impart to its students. I love YU. I spent three of my happiest years there. It was there that I acquired and codified certain principles whic determine how I lead my life. I am proud to be one of thousands of alumni of that school. But I am perplexed. So I will do what I always do when in such a situation. I’ll look further into the issue, try to find some maerial on the subject from YU’s perspective, and perhaps consult with those roshei yeshiva at YU with whom I’m still close. The rest of you, feel free to vent your snide comments here. I’m sure they make you feel so very superior and allow you to forget the very profound problems and worst abuses that abide in chareidi schools.
#123: “he should be “machniah” himself to the psak of the posek hador, maran hagaon rav eliyashiv shlita”
That is a little presumptuous of you. To say that legitimate Poskim cannot have differing views is disingenuous and that one need to conform to your opinion of who promulgates da’as torah is spurious at best. Da’as Torah is a fluid concept. The fact that this website and its sister paper version (i.e., yated) consistently annoint certain Gedolei Torah as their ultimate poskim does not obligate others to follow suit. Each community and each person needs to find their own Rav and Posek.
As the Machlokes Sifri and Yerushalmi on “Lo Sasur” makes clear, the extent of one’s fealty to Rabbonim is the subject of dispute.
Deleted.
I need to say something here that may offend some of you, and may help others of you realize what it is that Dr. Ladin is going through.
There is a medical condition known as Gender Identity Dysphoria. This condition is biological in nature, according to many doctors, and is incurable under normal circumstances. The prescribed manner of treatment for those facing GID is transition, at some point in their life. What Dr. Ladin did to stay alive is what many of you would do if you had c”v cancer. Would you not subject yourself to chemo and/or radiation, and on a yontif if necessary? Would you not eat mamash traif if the meds were clearly not kosher? I don’t think anyone, including the great Rabbis in the world today, would tell you not to save your life because something isn’t kosher or you need chemo on yontif! That’s preposterous to even contemplate.
Transitioning, when it comes to someone affected by GID, is in many instances an issue of pikuach nefesh. There is no other way to look at it other than that. So please, before you continue knocking YU for keeping Dr. Ladin or knocking Dr. Ladin directly, please keep in mind that she is a person, just like you and I, and would appreciate being treated as such.
There are so many good points being made here, but can the Yeshiva act solely based on what is good for the Jewish world?
This quagmire exists probably because YU is accredited through the Commission on Higher Education Middle Atlantic States Associate of Colleges and Schools and may be bound, by punishment by law, to abide by some EOE laws.
Of course we are in disgust about this, but cooler heads have to prevail since many are knee deep in degree programs they will rely on for parnosa.
I am NOT legitimatizing, heaven forbid, a transgendered professor at YU, AT ALL. But we have to do more than show hatred to YU as a way of showing how much we are against this.
YU has a big problem that is difficult to solve.
I cant believe all the hatred I am reading. Its a shame that each sect of Judaism hates each other and there is no tolerance.
I dont think anyone in YU is happy or accepting of the situation. They did what was legally responsible for the moment and will keep delving into the situation to figure out a better solution.
Keep in mind the professor is teaching secular subjects at Stern – he is NOT anywhere near the Beis Medrash. Many yeshivish schools employ non-religious and non-jewish teachers who have many moral and ethical issues as well. I went to a very religious school that had a gay woman teaching there.
Perhaps instead of looking only at the negative of this story, we should all look for something positive. Maybe we can learn not to judge people and learn a little more tolerance. Remember, tolerance does NOT mean you agree with what the person is doing, just that you accept their right to do it.
I’m also not sure what would be a bigger chilul hashem – keeping him on as a professor, or firing him and have the entire world bashing Jews! Remember, Jews ask for personal freedom, and if we deny it to others, why should they grant us freedoms? Freedom is a foundation of what this country was built on, and if you dont accept that, then move to a different country.
“Modern Orthodoxy is based on the views of R’ Samson R. Hirsch zt”l”
That is a crock, and even those that say this canard know that. Ask any of R’ Samson R. Hirsch’s successors in his Kehila in Washington Heights about this.
No Offense to everyone here, but first learn a little about what a person like that goes through. What reasons they could have for doing something like this. Then find out what the halacha is under those circumstances. I see a lot of witch hunting here. Further I see a lot of holier than thou attitudes, where people are becoming the judges when you are all NOT QUALIFIED. It offends you?, learn something about it and then say I’m offended. No one is asking you to do it yourself. This is a University, not an elementary school. This condition isn’t contangious, you dont have to fear that your children or relatives will start becoming as this professor has become simply for hearing, seeing or reading about it. Oh and No Modern Orthodoxy is not Christianity. For anyone here to say something like that is more of same judging. Judge yourself and when you come up clean than think about putting yourself in someone elses shoes. That doesn’t mean saying “Nope wouldn’t do that”, it means learning about the disorder this person experiences and then considering it. I expect more from community. So much for Dam Lechaf Zechut.
jenny/#138,
Spare us that New Age medical crock.
veryinteresting: “can the Yeshiva act solely based on what is good for the Jewish world?”
A resounding YES! (At least they should.) To ask such a question, ones needs a value check-up.
#143 this is not new age, its been around for thousands of years and most often resulted in suicide for such people. Today there are medical breakthroughs that allow a person to live a happy life. And your a medical expert in this field are you?
Hilah,
And I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.
after reading all these responses, i must say for the first time in my life i am ASHAMED, to be a jew. this is sick how hatefull you all are. your no better than arabs.have you ever stopped to think how much suffering people in such a condition go through? have you ever stopped to think how nice and normal these people are, how kind and generous??? these people are ten times better than all of you. since when is being a jew means to be prejudice and hateful. all the anti-semites out there already think that jews are prejudice and hateful, guess what you are proving them right. instead of being so incredibly righteous and hateful, how about you come up with solution to help your fellow jews. do you know there are children who go through this, what will you do kill them? i am so sick to my soul from these comments, of how close mineded you all are. everyone has issues, some are big, some are small. we do not deserve moshiah. if there is going to be a war, we deserve it full well. again i am ashamed to be a jew. ashamed!!
I am sad that there are people on this forum that are getting a lift from bashing a place that has produced, and still produces, many of todays Jewish leaders. I hope that people stop and realize that it is “all of us” who lose when we bash each other. We need to keep our mouth and ears closed when it comes to other people’s business, especially when it comes to a school that teaches Torah to all types Jews.
Joseph/#143: When you can truly experience what it is that Dr. Ladin or anyone in a similar situation is going through, come back and talk to me. Till then, keep your comments where they belong.
As a recent YU graduate, I would like to offer my opinion on the matter. Most of you have no affiliation with the institution, be it the college, one of the graduate schools, or RIETS. To hear the slanderous and disrespectful statements (have the common courtesy to refer to the roshei yeshiva as Rabbi or Rav, I guarantee that they deserve it) is shocking and hurtful. Still, I don’t feel the proper response is to bash the yeshiva world and the problems that it encounters. If you disagree with Modern Orthodoxy in general, that is a valid opinion as it has its flaws, but recognize that proponents of Modern Orthodoxy likely disagree for similarly justified reasons. In defense of YU, as a college, its job is to employ professors who can teach the subjects and courses in which they are experts, regardless of religion, personality, age, or gender. As has been pointed out, Professor Ladin is not a Rebbe in RIETS. Who cares what personal life choices she has made? The YU Roshei Yeshiva might oppose to the choice made by Professor Ladin on moral grounds, but her employment is not, as many have suggested, a reason for them to leave the yeshiva. Again, I’d just like to stress that if you are against YU’s hashkafa in general, you will be against this decision. Do not use that as an excuse to spread hate.
This medical psychological crock about “needing” to change genders is an affront to true medical science and all of humanity. Its a New Age “disorder” invented to legitimize the sodomites.
133, with all due respect, Rav Hirsch was a proponent of Torah IM Derech Eretz, Torah WITH Derech Eretz (that is, they weren’t equivalent but the latter subservient to the first), not Torah U Madda (Torah AND knowledge). I am NOT bashing the latter, just stating that they are two distinct philosophies. How their communities have changed over the last few decades is a whole nother story.
Feif Un,
But to say that R’ Hirsch is the spiritual forerunner of MO is simply not correct. (Ask the Rabbonim in Rav Hirsch’s kehilla in WH.)
Whereas Torah Umadda maintains two separate realms- religious and secular- and accents the idea of (psychological and sociological) synthesis, “Rabbi Hirsch’s fight was not for balance and not for reconcilement, nor for synthesis and certainly not for parallel power, but for domination – for the true and absolute domination of the divine precept over the new tendencies” (R. Isaac Breuer, R. Hirsch’s grandson).
Another difference is that Torah Umadda does not disavow communal partnership with the non-Orthodox Jewish community, whereas for Rabbi Hirsch “Austritt” (the Halachic requirement to have no official ties with non-Orthodox communal institutions) was a defining characteristic of his community, and a major theme in his writings.
While these distinctions can seem subtle (particularly the first), they have manifested in markedly divergent religious attitudes and perspectives. In fact, Rav Shimon Schwab, second rabbi of the “Breuers” [Rav Hirsch’s] community in Washington Heights, has been described as “spiritually very distant” from Torah Umaddah.
Pashuteh, Thanks for your fantasy course.
And we now return to reality…
While I have been assured that my words would fall on deaf ears, (and that is probably true) I still feel compelled to express my complete disgust with this forum. For a community that preaches that the Internet is assur and not something that people should have in their homes, I can only wonder why this web site even exists and look forward to the day it is shut down. Creating an open forum for lashon hora, is truly baffling and frankly quite nauseating. In regards to the town crier, why should he waste his time on this pathetic excuse for a “media outlet,” if it can even be regarded as such. What a chillul hashem- For someone to go as far as to call Rabbi Dr. Lamm, a noted Torah scholar, and brilliant man, a “jerk” (see comment 32)is not only incredibly disrespectful, but outrageous, and just highlights the ignorance that plaugues this community. Don’t begin to judge an entire institution on a subject that you know nothing about. How sad is it that your only frame of reference is from a tabloid newspaper, which I wonder if certain rabbanim in the Yeshiva community would even encourage their talmidim and baaleh baatim to read in the first place. Perhaps it would be prudent not to judge other Jews, particularly in elul and work on being mitaken the issues within your own communities and institutions…particularly the one where rabbanim are molesting children.
To #103.
No, I fully understood your post, and I also understand your post 103. Please re-read my post 59 slowly. YU is a makom Torah because there are hundereds of talmidim learning Torah there in the bais medresh and elsewhere from their Rebbeim who are talmidei chachamim. That is vey different than learning Torah on the F train, and I suspect that if you think about that a little bit you will agree. After you think about that, please again re-read my post 59 (the part about spreading hate). After that, if you still don’t get it, maybe you should take up my suggestion and go learn in the bais medresh at YU for a few days. The go learn on the F train.
#158- “What a chillul hashem- For someone to go as far as to call Rabbi Dr. Lamm, a noted Torah scholar, and brilliant man, a “jerk” (see comment 32)is not only incredibly disrespectful, but outrageous”
You are an ignoramus. the goan rav gifter (a YU GRADUATE) called “LAMM” far worse.
When you come close to the ‘pikchus’ (smartness, for an am haaretz like yourself) of this goan olam them come back. Until then get lost.
I was at the the famous schmooze when Rav Gifter bashed YU to smithers.
“Centrist Orthodoxy said our good friend Laam…..mi reeft em doctor?! Rav Shamshon Refoel Heeeersh hut given ah docter…..”
So thanks for trashing Rav Gifter you lowlife.
And yes, this is a macha on behalf of my Rebbi!
Proudly signed,
Chaim Saperstein, a Telzer talmid.
Definitions:
Modern Orthodox: The knowledge that living in the real world requires more than just learning Torah 24/7 and dressing like 1800s Polish nobility.
Chareidi: The knowledge that pre-world war 2 Europe was a wonderland for Jews and no matter what, America is a treif medina.
Yeshivish: The same as Modern Orthodox but without admiting it and wearing a black hat as a symbol of frukeit.
to Chaim Saperstein (the alleged Telzer talmid):
rav gifter’s son in law, Rabbi AC Feuer wouldn’t even be so bold and brazen as to say the things you said. Also, just because rav gifter said something doesn’t give you license to repeat it. (Rav gifter never said Rabbi Lamm was a jerk, so I don’t see how you are defending your rebbe with this vicious attack on irmiklat, for which you must beg mechila since once you re-read it you will see that teh comment by irmiklat was directed at those calling Rabbi Lamm a jerk not to those who stam criticize.) When you get to the level of rav gifter, then you can make proclamations about your torah contemporaries, but until then keep you pie hole shut. Chaim Saperstein is guilty of yuhara, and impersonating a torah scholar. Chaim Saperstein does not embody Telshe or any its agents, employees, and/or representatives. Chaim Saperstein lacks any and all rights to speak for, or on behalf of Telshe and/or its Rebbeim, past, present or future.
Rav Gifter ZTL does not need your defense, and your rushing to his aid is a giluy milsa that you think he does. How brazen of you. Rav Gifter doesnt need/want your “defense”. Your whole action shmecks of yuhara, something you need to be mechaper for.
And by the way, the expression is blast to smithereens, not smithers…but good try. showing off that (alleged) Telshe education.
Proudly Signed,
Yosef Ben Shimon
ilini07 — Refuah Shelamo! (BTW even Feif Un agreed with my comment.)
illini07, you have long ago snapped off your rocker. Coming from you anything said is assumable incorrect. Its Elul still, you have time.
Thank you #s 162 and 165 for responding to that despicable post, which was primarily an embarrasment to Telz.
Town crier #163, good to hear from you again.
This is my question: Would any poster on this forum like their child to attend this wonderful intelligent and intellectual proffesors classes?!
I am not against college but to expose my children to shmutz with a pulse!!
The difference between YU, Touro and a regular college is that when attending YU or Touro, whatever happens is considered Kosher or acceptable and there are no standards. In the name of being Jewish all goes! No questions!
When one attends Brooklyn college or Columbia U. it is clear that you are in the minority and you are there to learn a proffesion. You won’t be influenced nearly as much by the stench and grime.
Kesivah Vachasimah Tova to all my dear brothers on the right left center or out of control.
160,
Your comment is the most disgusting I’ve ever seen on this site. Trust me, thats quite a ‘biggie’!
How you mustered the courage to write it on your real name, is beyond me and apparantly others dont understand it either.
Joseph,
Save your Refuah shelaimo for Mr. Saperstein. He is one big Rachmonos!
REGARDING POST #64 ABOUT THE HOLY MUNCHAS ELOZOR’ COMMENTS REGARDING THIS INSTITUTION SEE POST #8 FOLLOWING LINK ALSO BRINGS IT http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=21804
ONE THING WE ALL NOTICED , THERE ARE 2 SIDES, THE ‘SITRA D’KEDUSH’ AND THE ‘SIRA ACHRA’ AND THOSE WHO ROOT FOR ONE SIDE ONE CAN SEE ITS ALWAYS DOWN THE LINE ON ANY SUBJECT THAT IS ALIGHNED WITH THAT ‘SUTRE’ AND ONE WHO IS ROOTING FOR THE OTHER SIDE ARE ALWAYS ALIGHNED WITH THE OTHER ‘SUTRE’.NOW WERE NOT SAYING WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE SO NOBODY START YELLING BECAUSE MAYBE WE MEAN YOU ARE THE RIGHT ‘SUTRE’..SO GOES ONE WHO ROOTS FOR REFORM, THAT KIND UNIVERSITY,TZNIUOUS AS HE WANTS IT,ALL FOR SECULAR STUDIES, THEIR VERSION OF HOW TO GO ABOUT SHIDDICHM (LIKE GOING OUT, MEETINGS,) ETC ETC ONE WILL SEE DOWN THE LINE ITS ALL ONE ‘SUTRE’THE SAME POSTERS WILL ALWAYS ROOT FOR THAT ‘SITRA’ VHAMASKIL YOUVIN..WHY ,BECAUSE SITRA D’KEDUSHA IS ALWAYS THE SAME SO AUTMATICALLY ONE WHO IS IN DE NETS OF SITRA D’KEDUSHA WILL SUPPORT THE DARECH KEDUSHA,AND HIS POSTINGS WILL REFLECT THAT KIND OF DERECH,AND SAME WITH ‘SITRA ACHRE’ SUTRE D’TUMA ALWAYS THE SAME SO WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT DEYOUS FROM THAT SITRA AND NOBODY START CRYING EVERYONE CAN TEICH HIMSELF TO WHATEVE SITRA HO LIKES
TO ILLINI07 WE 2ND JOSEPH MOTION
JENT1150:
HOW are you always able to remember all the old comments from posts a long time ago? You are very good at this!
The search box on top left does not search comments, only the stories itself…
TO ILLINI07..YOU DO, OTHERWISE YOU WOULNT COMMENT
#178, pashute yid,
As a graduate of a masters program from a big U. i can tell you that although the general atmosphere was terrible I came and left. I knew that I didn’t belong.
With many YU grads in my family it is clear that some with choshuve grandparents have left the loop. Have some gained? Yes. But does that justify the failings? NO.
Go outside Touro on boys or girls night. Ouch. Had these kids been in a regular college (like city college with affordable tuition – another topic) they would not hang out.
We can agree to disagree.
I have to chazer the daf. Bye.
to #183 feif un ..it has plenty to do..to a long pshetel…but few words will meramez ..’lo bchinom huloch hazarzir aitzel huoiref ala mipnaei shehu mino’ and as we were merames somewhere else how come such charachters dont end up lets say in berlin, lakewood etc ?
to illini07 you once asked why we use the term ‘kilo’ EG:kol hatorah ‘kilo’..just learned this am another example see taz s’u orech chaim simon 582 seuf katen 3…see your post #23 following link http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/17044/Former+Mayor+Ed+Koch+Plans+To+be+Buried+In+Non-Jewish+Cemetery+After+Consulting+With+Rabbi.html#comments
Jent1150,
Faren tzveita mul, how are you able to remember a post from 5 months ago, plus remember where that post is (link)??????
Please share your secret with us!!!!
It pains me to have to write a comment on this article. I just arrived to yu after spending three years in a prestigous Yeshiva in Eretz Yisroel. I spent three years intensly learning an exposed to the tremendous talmeda chachamiem. We were taught to become the greatiest ovda Hashem and grow to the griestiest of our abilities. Im not going to lie that i was nervous coming into yu. I didn’t know what to expect and actually had some negativety coming in. I can tell everyone reading this article that im so blown away by yu. The kol torah resounding from this bais medrish can compete with any yeshiva (any kippa color and hashkafa). The mesiras nefesh given by the buchrim is astounishing. Words can’t describe the emotions i feel when i walk into the bais medrish at 1030 at night and there are 100’s of people learning. May i remind everyone that this is after an intense morning seder, an afternoon full of classes, night seder, and homework which needs to be done. Yu is training the next leaders of rabbanim, bussinessmen, and bnai torah. Im not here to say that everything is perfect but nothing in this world is. I wont mention the things that i personally know that go on in the greatiest yeshivas in the world. Our job isn’t to critisize rather look at ourselves and see how we can become better ovdai Hashem. Im assuming that most of the people reading this article have never stepped foot into Yu and react based on what they hear. I was the same before i came here but now that im here i see the incredible kidish Hashem yu is making. If this really bothers us then daven to Hashem and stop critisizing others.
to feif un 71.. we were medame all those movements legabay the prat that they all are not going in the derech of their grandfathers or great grandfathers, somewhere down the line. they introduced drochchim that are assur mideoireise,no mater how many non-reyous reyous that guy beings from bach etc,. mixed swimming, mixed seating ver red shoin fun mechitze, wearing pants,noshim go halve naked like the umos huoilom (yes, we saw it with our own eyes!) ver red shoin fun yichud,noch mit eishes eish…one of their rabbis is embrioiled with chasahd..even not true, as men is shoin choished is genug..we can go on and on,yes yes you can be de greste menuvel and say you not oiver anything..listen you can bring all the reyous you want like that other apikores, talmud hoyu shhoyou metar es hasheretz b’150 taminm.. ,the point is somewhere down the line father, grandfather , etc were the same like us. who gave them the heter disregard these halachos?..and there is no differance wether your koifer miktzas hatorah, 3/4 torah or chol hatorah kilo..
Question: When YU figures out a way to get rid of this “individual”, will YWN post that information, to bring Shalom among Klal Yisroel?
Maybe I’m being Dan Lekaf Chova (not a good idea in Elul, in case anyone was wondering), but it wouldn’t surprise me if that went unnoticed.
YWN, like every other newspaper in existence, has an agenda – it seeks to strengthen the Yeshiva World’s hashkafic views and parochiality. It will therefore do anything necessary to achieve this goal – even if it has to be a bit lax in terms of other areas of halacha and hashkafa, and even if it means painting institutions like YU in a negative light and unjustifiably glorifying the yeshivishe yeshivas at times (or covering up their faults).
For anyone who thinks YU is a bunch of shkotzim – come and pay a visit to the main beis, and you may be shocked. (R’ Nison Alpert ZT”L certainly was rather impressed when he came to see YU – and ended up staying for the rest of his life, unfortunately short though it was.)
For anyone who expects YWN to give fair and unbiased coverage and takes offense when it slanders YU – you should get real! This is how every newspaper works, and as someone who probably has a more well-rounded education, who has been exposed to the outside world – you should not be surprised by this type of thing. And you should be mature enough to know that nothing will be changed by your complaints.
(I’m not saying that this is bad, by the way – every group does this, whether consciously or not, and it would be unfair to blame anyone for it. In fact, according to certain hashkafic values, it may even be a positive to sugarcoat one’s brand of yiddishkeit.)
Finally, for anyone who actually cares about Klal Yisroel – please daven for all of us this Elul and on the Yamim Noraim, whether we’re starving on a paltry Kollel salary, working hard and making time for Daf Yomi and Shnayim Mikra and chavrusas, or walking the fine balance of Torah and Madda. Please daven for people who wear streimels and frocks, people who wear hats and jackets, and people who wear Kipot Srugot and button-down, polo, or tee shirts. And most of all, please daven for the majority of Klal Yisroel, who aren’t educated enough to have Sinas Chinam – and maybe even learn from their example in that regard.
so i don’t get it. whats the halachic ruling on such a person. if he/she is jewish??
This is probably the first time I’ve ever posted anything on an online forum, but after spending a good amount of time reading through all the comments, I can’t help myself.
Let’s try to look at the situation logically, instead of joyfully rushing to offer up impractical suggestions and off-the-topic hate. Oh, and just so everything is clear, you should know that I am a talmid in YU.
When I first heard of what was going on I had a couple of reactions. First, I thought “wow, that’s terrible.” Then I began to think about what the options of the hanhala were. They could somehow find a way to summarily fire the person. Of course, this would probably result in both a major lawsuit, with the possible result that this person would be reinstated anyway. And even worse: it would become real news (i.e. New York Times) as opposed to tabloid fodder (i.e. New York Post, YWN forum, and no I am not equating these two things, just saying that they’re not as widespread as other realms of media), c”v resulting in the much bigger chillul Hashem of the WHOLE WORLD seeing the following headline: BIGGEST JEWISH INSTITUTION IN THE COUNTRY INTOLERANT. How much anti-Semitic backlash do you think that could cause? Granted, it’s a disgusting act, but the rest of the world doesn’t think so anymore. If we want people to be tolerant of us (which I think we do, right?), we can’t openly flout our own standards.
The other option would be, as some have suggested, for the Roshei Yeshiva shlita to resign. This would accomplish… what exactly, besides lots and lots of bitul torah? [I don’t need to talk about the extraordinary talmud torah here; a couple of people have done that already and everybody pretty much chose to ignore them.] Anything the rabbanim would do would not change the fact that the hanhala are pretty much handcuffed on the issue.
The only option that’s left is to, bedieved, not make a big deal about it because nothing constructive would come out of it. Yes, we’d prefer to not have such a person her. But do we really have a choice at this point?
Derech agav, I’d like to share with you something else: what exactly are you worried about about (bedieved) having such a person around? Do you really think that any person with half a brain can’t separate the fact that the person teaching them history, or english, is not meant to be a role model in all facets of life? Let me assure you, I take my guidance from my Roshei Yeshiva and Mashgichim; not only do I not care about the personal lives of my non-Jewish professors, but I don’t even KNOW about their personal lives. Last year I had a professor who I think might have, unfortunately, been not straight. But I didn’t and still don’t know for sure, and I certainly wasn’t influenced by it.
Now, as to the svara of “yeah, but the university as a whole employing such a person inherently condones such an action,” this is again utter nonsense. Anybody looking at the situation logically realizes that the hanhala has no choice, and that nobody actually thinks that this is OK (as per the comments of Rav Tendler shlita).
Now, a side point. This has also been mentioned before, but it bears repeating. If you are going to post opinions about other rabbanim, it really is a terrible thing to call a huge talmud chacham a name, or to leave off Rav or Rabbi. Trust me, I know from first-hand experience: these rabbanim are HUGE talmidei chachamim. I’d be willing to go out on a limb here and say that most of the rabbanim who have been badmouthed here are bigger ovdei Hashem than those doing the slandering. It pays to keep debates civil; have conversations and not arguments. Things are much more constructive that way.
If anybody has anything logical in response, I’d love to hear it. If you want to talk to me about it, I’ll be in the beis medrash in my yeshiva tonight until about 2AM.
All Jews should have a great shabbos and a meaningful Elul.
There are choshuva Rebbaim in YU, no doubt. But they are there out of necessity, not choice. Everyone needs a paycheck, and YU’s greenback is as good as any. And if there is no other employment opportunities for them, and face it there are only son many positions available for Rebbeim, they have to take a YU position.
Will Hill (#196) – So you’re saying that any choshuva rav in YU is there because he couldn’t get a job elsewhere? Do you realize how many other yeshivos have offered some rabbanim here other posts, only to be turned down? And what about the rabbanim that are musmachim of YU – they only went to YU because they couldn’t get in anywhere else? Please.
The fact is that if you would actually talk to any of the rabbanim (like those of us who are actually talmidim here) you’d realize that they believe in the place; if they didn’t they wouldn’t be here. Good shabbos, Will Hill and everybody else.
As if a Rebbi in YU would admit he was only there because he needs a parnasa, and not believes in YU.
The fact is there are a shortage of Rebbeim positions. Additionally, YU’s pay scale is higher than other places, simply because it can. It is a money machine, unlike a mosod that must work hard just to barely make ends meet.
So you can’t blame the Rebbeim for taking a well paying job in YU even though they would ideally prefer to work in a regular Yeshiva.