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To what degree should we acknowledge the efforts of the IDF and Mossad in the successful operation over the past few days? Obviously, we need to show hakaras hatov to the Ribono Shel Olam for enabling their success, but is that to the exclusion of hakaras hatov to those people who planned and executed the operation? The famous possuk seems to say that we should acknowledge our strength, but to remember that our strength ultimately comes from HaShem. וזכרת את ה’ אלוקך כי הוא הנותן לך כח לעשות חיל… it is our strength that’s doing the חיל but it is HaShem who gave us that strength.
See the Targum Unkelos who explains the pasuk that Hashem gave you the intelligence to know what to do in order to be successful.
but is that to the exclusion of hakaras hatov to those people who planned and executed the operation?
Chazal say:
חמרא למריה טיבותא לשקייה
Wine belongs to the owner, yet one thanks the one puring it.Every situation of hakoras hatov to people involves this, because in truth, everything comes from Hashem.
Firstly, you’re using the Drashot Hara”n’s interpretation. The Ramban differs.
Also, of course you should have hakaros hatov. He who denies the good of his friend will soon deny the good of G-D (Medrash). The question is should we as a nation be “proud”. I happen to think this was a major kiddush hashem, especially so soon after the massive chillul hashem that took place last simchas torah. So yes, I’m proud of what happened. Is it wrong? Maybe, but I have a soft spot for kiddush hashems.
Somehow, this kochi discussion comes up every time Israeli army does something. When your kid gets a good grade in school, do you also remind the kid that he is not getting any cookies so that he does not develop a kochi attitude?
One pattern is that this issue is raised by people who themselves are not at risk of being accused of achieving something themselves. For example, Pres. Obama had a similar frum attitude when he told Gov Romney that Romney “did not build his businesses”.
never praise the actions of rashayim, nothing good comes out of their avairas
never praise the actions of rashayim, nothing good comes out of their avairas
How dare you!?
Moshe gave hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, yet you are incapable of thanking a Jews who put themselves into danger to protect you!?
A) How do you know that they don’t keep mitzvos? Do YOU do no aveiros? Maybe they are more frum than you?
B) Even if ch”v they are not שומר תורה ומצוות, we can safely assume that the reason for this is that they didn’t have a proper Torah upbringing, they are like Jewish children who were captured by non-Jews, for whom we should be feeling great mercy and compassion.
Do we know how much Hashem values their mitzvos?
Rambam writes that we have no idea how much Hashem values a mitzvah. It’s possible for a mitzvah to seem insignificant to us, yet be extremely valuable to Hashem.
Maybe Hashem values the one act of this uneducated Jew to protect other Jews more than all the mitzvos that you may have done in a manner of מצוות אנשים מלומדה?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Man help yourself in order Hashem should help. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein ztz’l says in Igros Moshe about raising children we need perspiration and inspiration The parent must put their effort in raising children than pray to Hashem to bear fruits.
Simcha,
Someone in my shul (a rebbe) says the passuk of כלי ועצם ידי isn’t going on war and is going on a persons work in the field
So just like you have הכרת הטוב to the bus driver for getting you somewhere safely even though it really is Hashem, the same thing here
David hamelech said G-d helps him through his helpers. He acknowledged that G-d is behind everything but also acknowledged hakoros hatov for those that chose to sacrifice to help him. It seems to me if you’re on the level of Reb Zusha who saw reality so clearly that he saw G-ds blessing in everything or – I forget who – the story of the Tzaddik who needed a train ticket and saw G-da hand behind everything maybe your hakoros hatov might be muted bec of how clearly you see reality. If you are not on the level of Reb Zusha it seems to me hakoros hatov is foundational to the existence of the universe. That is to say, if every morsel that you put in you mouth, you legitimately rejoice that G-d Himself Designed, created, and sustained this entire existence just to be able to provide that bite of food for you. Perhaps your gratitude for humans might be muted, but for me, I strive to be on that level, but I am not there so I have a degree of gratitude for everyone who helps me.
@simcha613
it’s a good question, and something dealt with clearly in poskim and sifrei machshava.In our exile, we are obligated to submit ourselves to the non-Jewish nations around us, honor their laws and pay their taxes. In a similar vein, we are obligated to both show derech eretz in our interactions and humble ourselves in front of those we need to interact with.
That means, practically when interacting with such a doctor, one must give appropriate hakaras hatov and praise as is needed. In your heart and when relating it casually to others, it would be forbidden to praise to the person only one must praise Hashem.
If speaking to a goyishe doctor, you can say “doctor, you saved my life!”. But, you can’t tell your kids that evening “that doctor saved my life!”
If the doctor is an erliche yid, one can praise him only as much as he is keeping torah and mitzvos. So, you can glowingly relate “I even heard him mumbling a ‘yehi rutzon’ as he was putting on his gloves! such yirash shomayim!”, but you can’t tell your kids that evening “that doctor saved my life!”.
How dare you!?
It’s not me, I’m just teaching what the Torah says.
Moshe gave hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, yet you are incapable of thanking a Jews who put themselves into danger to protect you!?
I am capable, but the Torah forbids it. It’s a good question, I could easily speculate answers of the distinction, but I don’t want to add my own thoughts here. For the record, the reason given that even a “tinok sh’nishba” is included in this is that the main concern for praising a rasha is that it will influence you or others to copy their ways.
A) How do you know that they don’t keep mitzvos?
I don’t know, however, the halacha establishes the guidelines, and one must judge according to what they see. This has nothing to do with dinai shamayim which has more resources than basar v’dam.
Do YOU do no aveiros?
Sure, I do a lot, just privately so no one will copy them. Also, a “rasha” that is not part of klal yisroel is NOT anyone who does an avaira, it’s a specific threshold that must be crossed. I haven’t crossed that line, nor come anywhere close to it.
Maybe they are more frum than you?
It could be the imaginary person you are talking about, who is michalel shabbos publicly, is secretly one of the lamed-vavniks. That doesn’t change our obligation to react to their public persona not does it change the halacha.
B) Even if ch”v they are not שומר תורה ומצוות, we can safely assume that the reason for this is that they didn’t have a proper Torah upbringing, they are like Jewish children who were captured by non-Jews, for whom we should be feeling great mercy and compassion.
It doesn’t change this halach, as Rav Chaim Brisker said “nebach an apikorus is still an apikorus”
Do we know how much Hashem values their mitzvos?
A person who doesn’t believe in Hashem or doesn’t believe in the Torah cannot do a mitzvah. Many many seforim express the horrible ramifications of a rasha doing any mitzvah, and how destructive it is for them, for us, and for the world, r”l. The modern heter for engaging rashayim to do mitzvos for kiruv, is off the understanding that if they indeed do tshuva m’ahava, their sins (including the disastrous fake mitzvas they did on the way) will be converted to real mitzvos and reward for them and the world. There has been some disagreement amongst Gedolim regarding kiruv that involves chilonim doing mitzvos while still kofrim.
Rambam writes that we have no idea how much Hashem values a mitzvah. It’s possible for a mitzvah to seem insignificant to us, yet be extremely valuable to Hashem.
He’s not talking about kofrim, obviously, as his psak regarding them is clear in hilchos memarim.
Maybe Hashem values the one act of this uneducated Jew to protect other Jews more than all the mitzvos that you may have done in a manner of מצוות אנשים מלומדה?
why speculate when you can learn Torah?
Kavod for resha’im should be avoided.
But the methodology employed by these resha’im [and non reshaim] should be carefully studied and if successful in saving lives and property, should be emulated. Like a non frum doctor who happens to excel in his field, patients should be referred to him.
With no need to give him undue kavod.
Same with other military pikuach Nefesh dilemma’s.> If speaking to a goyishe doctor, you can say “doctor, you saved my life!”. But, you can’t tell your kids that evening “that doctor saved my life!”
yes, has veshalom kids develop too much derech eretz – they’ll have hard time blending in school.
>> Moshe gave hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, yet you are incapable of thanking a Jews who put themselves into danger to protect you!?
> I am capable, but the Torah forbids it.Maybe you can give your sources and then we can discuss them? You seem to be presuming that a random doctor is a rasha. Why would yo say that? He is not a potential magician of “medicine” of 2000 years ago – he spent years in medical school and residence and working long hours to keep you healthy.
@always_ask_questions
the context of the question asked by @menachem-shmei was that we are talking about a rasha who is no longer part of klal yisroel.yankel > Like a non frum doctor who happens to excel in his field, patients should be referred to him.
R Soloveichik writes that in Lita towns where non/anti-observant people were not tolerated, they would still have a non-observant doctor and pharmacist – because there were no others, and people needed them. He says that in his experience (1950s) it was better to talk to a non-Jewish doctor when there was some religious sensitivity (kashrus, fasts, family issues) than to a non-religious Jewish doctor. From that, he suggested (l’hathila) that YU medical school will be useful: non-religious Jews who would come there might not become religious, but at least they’ll come out with appreciation of the views that religious Jews hold.
some > was that we are talking about a rasha who is no longer part of klal yisroel.
I missed that, and when I am re-reading this thread, I still do not see that. This started with Tzahal that has different types of Jews. If your statement of the doctors is limited to rashayim, presuming we agree on the definition, this is different. But your statement reads as unqualified applying to any doctor, except “frum” by your standard.
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