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Should America (and/or Canada, Australia, etc.) offer Israeli citizens a safe haven, in case the situation becomes dangerous?
We already see Israel has evacuated Northern Israel due to the ongoing missiles from Hezbollah and evacuated Southern Israel due to the terrorist attack by Hamas on October 7. And the ongoing threat from the Houthis in Yemen to, even, Central Israel and, more precisely, the increasing threat of direct attack anywhere in Israel by Iran, which has nuclear weapons, is getting ever more severe.
We mustn’t forget how the world refused entry to Jews when we were under Nazi threat.
The above, of course, is all physical threats. But far to overlook the spiritual threats, the Brisker Rosh Yeshiva shlit”a said, already, even before October 7 that Torah observant Jews may need to move out of the State due to the secular non-observant irreligious intolerant State, especially as ruled by its Torah hating Supreme Court, threatening to forcibly draft Bnei Yeshiva out of the Yeshiva into their immoral secularizing army, that’s famous for rampant licentiousness and debauchery, may require us to escape its clutches by moving.
In America, pro-Hamas members of the socio-economic elites endorse what Hamas did on Oct. 7, and feel free to attack Jews. There is a strong movement to ban Jews from elite universities. And the political party that includes, and arguably is dominated by the anti-Semites is leading in the election.
We perhaps might be able to relocate to “Red States” but they have their own problems, and would still be in the United States. There are very few countries in which both Islam and “WOKE” are opposed but none have ever had strong Jewish communities in the past. While relocating Jews to a different planet has been discussed both in the real world (wasn’t practical in the 1940s) and science fiction, that probably isn’t practical for at least a few more generations.
Doing tseuvah might help, but most Jews are too attached to modern culture and perqs to give it up.
Joseph,
Several months ago, you were advocating moving to areas of E”Y inside Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. That would make an excellent safe-haven for you and your NK buddies, so when is it happening?
If you want to be safe from goyim, in the long run, you are talking about another planet (should we try to take over Mars before Musk does) or Olam ha-Ba, which is quite safe for frum Yidden.
We should realize that the period starting with the end of World War II has been a “golden age” and is unlikely to continue and we should expect to return to what was normal in the past.
The question itself is kefira. Hashem has returned us to our land as He promised. The final redemption has begun and will not be undone.
I hope you are joking!
The question is should Israel offer American Jews a safe haven……..
ובהר ציון תהיה פליטה – והיה קדוש.
That is what the Chofetz Chaim said to his son in law when asked about Yimach shemo’s plan to kill Jews.
We in Israel are experiencing labor pains.
America is experiencing the pain of destruction from within…
Open your eyes before its too late!
Hashem Yerachem!The fact that UJM even asked this question indicates that he is
hoping and praying for the complete defeat & destruction
of Israel and its army, even though that would certainly result in:[1] Another Holocaust, with millions of Jews killed, including children and babies.
[2] The complete destruction of ALL Jewish holy places (including THE KOTEL)
in Eretz Yisrael, and the complete destruction of ALL synagogues
and Jewish cemeteries in Eretz Yisrael, which would ALL be bulldozed,
dynamited, paved-over with concrete and made into mosques.[3] The complete destruction of ALL Yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael, which would
ALL be dynamited, paved-over with concrete and made into mosques.[4] Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees, including children and babies.
And with many Jewish families accidentally becoming separated, as they flee.
There is NO GUARANTEE that ** ANY ** nation will accept Jewish refugees.[5] Millions of goyim coming to the conclusion that G*D has abandoned
The Jewish People, which would be an international Chillul HaShem,
and inspire millions of goyim to persecute helpless Jewish refugees.[6] Jewish individuals and Jewish institutions being overwhelmed,
to their breaking points, trying to handle a tidal wave of Jewish refugees.These are the intentions and plans of UJM & HaKatan & the Neturei Karta.
They are ENEMIES of everything that is authentically Jewish, including:
The G*D of Israel, The People of Israel & The Torah of Israel.
That they are enemies of The Land of Israel is so obvious
that it should not need to be explicitly written.Joe trolling like only Joe can
to UJM:
By calling me a “Messianic Jew”, you have committed the sin of Motzi Shem Ra [false slander].
But forget about insignificant me.Much more importantly, you cannot refute my most recent comment,
because my most recent comment is 100% true.I will repeat my my most recent comment, and invite you to *** TRY *** to refute it:
=========================================================
The fact that UJM even asked this question indicates that he is
hoping and praying for the complete defeat & destruction
of Israel and its army, even though that would certainly result in:[1] Another Holocaust, with millions of Jews killed, including children and babies.
[2] The complete destruction of ALL Jewish holy places (including THE KOTEL)
in Eretz Yisrael, and the complete destruction of ALL synagogues
and Jewish cemeteries in Eretz Yisrael, which would ALL be bulldozed,
dynamited, paved-over with concrete and made into mosques.[3] The complete destruction of ALL Yeshivahs in Eretz Yisrael, which would
ALL be dynamited, paved-over with concrete and made into mosques.[4] Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees, including children and babies.
And with many Jewish families accidentally becoming separated, as they flee.
There is NO GUARANTEE that ** ANY ** nation will accept Jewish refugees.[5] Millions of goyim coming to the conclusion that G*D has abandoned
The Jewish People, which would be an international Chillul HaShem,
and inspire millions of goyim to persecute helpless Jewish refugees.[6] Jewish individuals and Jewish institutions being overwhelmed,
to their breaking points, trying to handle a tidal wave of Jewish refugees.These are the intentions and plans of UJM & HaKatan & the Neturei Karta.
They are ENEMIES of everything that is authentically Jewish, including:
The G*D of Israel, The People of Israel & The Torah of Israel.
That they are enemies of The Land of Israel is so obvious
that it should not need to be explicitly written.SQUARE_ROOT:
The Zionist paradise will surely end when G-d decides to do so, even before Mashiach comes according to some. No, that does not mean any harm to any Jews, CH”V.ujm:
The reason the British closed the borders of Mandatory Palestine to Jews during WW II is, of course, Zionist agitation and war and terror against both them and the Arabs. The US and Canada would not mimic the Brits in this regard, then.Maybe America should offer the yimach shemam Hizzbollah a refuge after they will be driven out of Lebanon.
The first Makah happened yesterday.
Exploding pagers…only Hashem can do that via the Jews in israel.
He’s protecting us here. so obvious!!
Come home and join the fun!
התייצבו וראו ישועת ה!You have no right to be upset with America not accepting European Jews. They had very valid & legitimate reasons for not doing so.
UJM does not seem to remember that the Gedolim who condemned
“The Zionists”, also condemned the USA as “the treifa medina”.Why does UJM want to move Jews from Eretz HaKodesh,
where living there is a great merit, to the USA,
which was condemned as “the treifa medina” by the Gedolim?Maybe no Jews should live anywhere in the USA,
because Gedolim who lived 100+ years ago
condemned the USA as “the treifa medina”?Lol. The direction in which the US is headed, with masses of pro-Fakestinian protestors chanting for jihad even in Jewish neighborhoods, with Jews being attacked, with thousands of terrorists sneaking over the border, with unchecked hate speech being protected under the cover of “free speech”, you have to be blind to reality to ask that question.
UJM,
FDR didn’t close the doors. They were already closed by the 1924 Johnson Reed Immigration Act.
It sounds simple to you because you think the world revolves around Jews. Wake up call, it doesn’t.
Look at what was going on in America & the world then & any normal person sitting in the oval office would’ve done the same thing as FDR (perhaps besides sending the Jews on the St. Louis back).Square Root,
We should go back to the beginning. This is from a letter Rabbi Avraham Rice, the first “Real” (& for a while only) Ruv in America wrote to his Rebbe in Germany. (c.1840’s-1850’s)
“One more thing I wish to disclose to you my revered master and teacher…and my soul weepeth in the dark on account of it, namely, that the character of religious life in this land is on the lowest level; most of the people are eating non-kosher food, are violating the Shabbos in public…and there are thousands who have been assimilated among the non-Jewish population and have married non-Jewish women. Under these circumstances, my mind is perplexed, and I WONDER WHETHER A JEW MAY LIVE IN A LAND SUCH AS THIS.”Dear Kuvult:
When you are able to, PLEASE help all of us by giving us an
exact source for that valuable letter from Rabbi Avraham Rice.THANK YOU!
PS: I wish you only good decrees on Rosh HaShanah
and a very easy fast on Yom Kippur.Ujm, they same things that are happening here are happening in Australia and Canada with the exception that the terrorists pouring into these two countries are mostly legal vs many terrorists coming into the US are doing so illegally.
SQUARE ROOT,
I’m sure it’s elsewhere online but my source is an article by Yitzchak Levine (who I believe is a historian from the NY area) printed in the Baltimore monthly magazine (R’ Rice served in Baltimore) Jan. 2014 issue of where-what-when. It’s a fairly long article covering his life & fights with Reformers in his Shul & elsewhere, as well as his movement to establish strict Orthodoxy in America.Kuvult, thank you for answering my question.
I wish you only good decrees on Rosh HaShanah
and a very easy fast on Yom Kippur.>Should America (and/or Canada, Australia, etc.) offer Israeli citizens a safe haven, in case the situation becomes dangerous?
If you believe that Jews should live in Israel, then doesn’t encouraging to leave indicate a lack of bitachon?
Are people seriously suggesting that being near people holding up signs supporting terrorists is a more dangerous situation that being near the actual terrorists themselves? Get a grip. I’m sure Joseph is trolling to some degree, but stop rewriting reality. Israel is currently more dangerous than America. That is a statistical reality, not a statement against Zionism or “actual kefira” or whatever. You can be upset or confused by that reality and how it doesn’t shtem with your religious beliefs, but it remains the reality nonetheless.
If you’re mad about what appears to be Chareidi Anti-Zionists running an I-told-you-so victory lap after a tragedy, then just say so. Don’t come back with weird denials of the observable metzius.
“If you believe that Jews should live in Israel, then doesn’t encouraging to leave indicate a lack of bitachon?”
To prove that you don’t even believe you’re own argument, would you suggest that Jews should move to Gaza right now in its current state? How about the parts of neighboring Islamist dictatorships that are halachically part of Eretz Yisroel? If you claim that that would be reckless and dangerous/pikuach nefesh, isn’t that also just a lack of bitachon by your shittah?
“Jews have never forgiven FDR for closing America’s doors to European Jewry”
Liar. The law that ended legal immigration of Jews (and everyone else) from Easten Europe was signed by Calvin Coolidge in 1924. Franklin Roosevelt was pretty much out of politics at that point. Jews from Eastern Europe who would have made it to the US would have been illegal immigrants subject to immediate deportation. There was no provision for refugees or asylum in the law at that time. And had Roosevelt broken the law to give Jews asylum he would likely have been impeached and removed from office. The America First movement was that strong.
Rabbi Rice came to the US in 1840. He was solidly Orthodox and was indeed the first Orthodox Rabbi with real semicha to settle permanently in the US. He remained solidly Orthodox for the remainder of his life, which was spent in the US. To imply that he was Orthodox “for a while” is motzi shem ra.
Rabbi Rice came to the US in 1840. He was solidly Orthodox and was indeed the first Orthodox Rabbi with real semicha to settle permanently in the US. He remained solidly Orthodox for the remainder of his life, which was spent in the US. To imply that he was Orthodox “for a while” is motzi shem ra.
“letter from Rabbi Avraham Rice.”
There is a great biography of Rabbi Rice that quotes many .similar writings by him and others who were committed to Torah.
I. Harold Sharfman
The First Rabbi: Origins of Conflict Between Orthodox and Reform : Jewish Polemic Warfare in Pre-Civil War America : A Biographical History
Pangloss Press, 1988I think it is out of print but I found used copies on several internet sites.
Given that Donald Trump’s platdoem is to deny refuge to anyone fleeing persecution, even from Marxist tyrants, you can pretty much drop any hope of Israelis getting refuge in the US should he get elected.
“They had very valid & legitimate reasons for not doing so.
Racism, nativism, and anti-Semitism are not legitimate reasons for denying refuge to people fleeing persecution and tyranny. Calvin Coolidge was wring in 1924 and Donald Trump is wring today.
“any normal person sitting in the oval office would’ve done the same thing as FDR (perhaps besides sending the Jews on the St. Louis back).”
FDR had no authority to admit the St. Louis passengers. You had to have a visa issued at a US embassy or consulate in your country of birth. That was the law and had been the law since 1924. This was particularly problematic for Polish born Jews because Poland had ceased to exist in late September 1939.
Modern,
It’s pretty obvious to me (I wrote it) that “for a while” didn’t mean R’ Rice was Orthodox “for a while” then wasn’t.
It meant he was the only “Real=Orthodox” Rabbi in America “for a while” as in THE ONLY ORTHODOX RABBI IN AMERICA UNTIL OTHER ORTHODOX RABBIS CAME.“Racism, nativism, and anti-Semitism are not legitimate reasons for denying refuge to people fleeing persecution and tyranny. Calvin Coolidge was wring in 1924 and Donald Trump is wring today.”
Dude, you’re still calling everyone you disagree with a racist? That is so last decade.
Charlie,
Liar. FDR had Democrat majorities in Congress for most of his terms as President and could have passed legislation allowing Jews into this country. However, like all good liberals, he despised Jews and wouldn’t even meet with the hundreds of Rabbis who came to Washington in October of 1943, beseeching him to save their brothers and sisters.
Nothing has changed.
Gardol & Modern,
It’s easy to cry Racism & Antisemitism when things don’t go your way.
One thing I love about my history teacher is he always explains the other side & what were they thinking. That doesn’t mean you agree, just why they did what they did
First, no one had any idea about a Holocaust in the 1930s because even the Nazis hadn’t thought about it.
Second, fleeing persecution & tyranny, Hadn’t Jews been doing that forever? & (I know people hate when I speak the truth but the Emes is the Emes) Just take the Tsars. They went after the Jews & OTHER MINORITIES, Why? Because he didn’t care about the people or human rights. He wanted peace & quiet & what’s the best way to achieve that? By making everyone the same. If everyone in Russia including the Jews & other minorities were converted into Russian Orthodox Christians & proud, loyal, patriotic Russians he’d have nothing to worry about. Same with the Soviets. Should America have taken in tens of millions of persecuted Jews & Non-Jews from all over the world?
In 1938 unemployment was 19%!!! In 1939 it was 17.2%!!!!
Is it wrong for a country to say they’re going to make sure their own citizens have jobs before letting in foreigners to take them?
If you were the President with massive unemployment would you do anything differently?
& Now the hardest part for Yidden to hear.
Eastern European Jews were described as having “Strange customs & Shiftless ways”
Look at an Eastern European Jew through the eyes of a Non-Jewish American. Funny hair, funny clothes, don’t speak a “real” language, not modernized, uncultured, unwesternized, little to no secular education, & very few having useful skills to bring with them.
Do you give the job of janitor at a factory to an immigrant Jew or an unemployed American citizen?
The other issue we hate to discuss is at that time Communism was very popular & while understandable at the time, MANY Jews were into Communism. The US govt was full of Communists (many of them Jews) in every Dept. The US knew we’d be at war with Communism. If you were in charge would you allow thousands upon thousands of JEWISH (the most disciplined, hard working,) Communists into your country?
p.s. When we claim these attitudes were due to Antisemitism of a perfectly innocent people let’s just look at the present. How many Jews refused to follow masking rules (whether it was right is immaterial, it’s about being good honest lawful citizens of the US & not as they were described having “Shiftless ways”). How many Shul’s locked the front door BUT OPENED THE BACK DOOR to continue holding services? How many of our schools renamed themselves as “Daycare” in order to stay open during Covid? How many weddings & funerals were illegally held cuz “We know better than the Goyim.”?
How many times have Heimish schools been raided by the FBI for “theft of services” by misappropriating govt grants? I’m not saying all Jews cuz it’s not but we also can’t deny even today many of us see the govt as an enemy that needs to be beaten at its own game by “Pulling Shtik” or crying “Antisemitism”
I have a hard time believing if a Non-Jewish minority in South America were being persecuted like the Jews in Eastern Europe were in the 30’s & you were facing many challenges at-home that as President you would say, “Sure, let’s take in 5, 6, or 9 million of these people.”
When you look at this issue as an AMERICAN instead of a JEW you quickly understand why what happened, happened & it wasn’t simply based on Racism & Antisemitism.
Did Antisemitism probably play some role? Yes. But it wasn’t “We can easily take in & absorb these people but the only reason we won’t is because we hate Jews.”Kuvult, many good points.
> no one had any idea about a Holocaust in the 1930s
It was already clear that the 20th century is different. First WW1 (aka at the time as a Great War) with unheard of losses in “developed” world. Then, by this time, millions of Jews, as well as non-Jews, died or/and suffered immensely in USSR and threatened other countries already.I agree that association of Jews with communism was not helpful to obtaining US visas and might have contributed to immigration restrictions of 1920s in the first place. We see in our time how nativism strengthens from what they see in the arrivals. This association also added to Germans conflating Jews and Communists.
Furthermore, before demanding prophetic vision from FDR, we should look at our own leaders who were often similar blind of the upcoming danger. FDR might had better military intelligence, but Torah wisdom should not be less than that …
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