Shmad in Israel?

You can call it shmad, or call it whatever you like, but the fact is that there is absolutely no real need for the bnei Torah to be drafted. There are at least as many leftist tel avivim as there are haredim who avoid the draft, and if all the bnei Torah were to be drafted, there would be a serious lack of funds and lack of means of organization to ingest them all.

There are literally positions in the IDF like “officer of sprinkers,” who, as the name suggests, is in charge of making sure that the sprinklers work…There is a position called “officer of pens.” His job is–you guessed it–to make sure that every officer in an indoor meeting has a pen. I can go on with examples… The IDF’s major power is in its reserves, and currently there are more reserves on duty than ever before.

If you’re then going to argue that many (many!!) soldiers from special units were lost zt”l and these need to be replaced, then you must be joking to suggest that haredim with no special background of physique training etc. are supposed to suddenly join the IDF into units that are made only for those who try their hardest to get in. In fact, there is often a 1:100 or smaller ratio of those accepted into those units, not even because of skill but because of the limited nature of the availability of spots in these units. In fact, most of those killed were high level officers r”l, and these are NOT going to be replaced by a bunch of Haredi recruits, not in your wildest imagination.

So the fact holds that there is NO difference now in the Leftists’ statements than any other instance in the past decades, where suddenly they chap a rein on a given situation whether political or otherwise, to try again to stop the Charedim from their way of life and try and force them into the army where they are supposedly needed.

All of this is just on the purely political, tactical, and logical side of things (and my sources are from very close acquaintances, as well as from my own experiences within army circles).

Now, let’s jump into what’s ACTUALLY important here: You seem to be suggesting that kochi ve’otzem yadi asa es hachayil hazeh – that it is our own strength and power of our hands that give the IDF their advantage. How did I reach that conclusion? Because you’re suggesting that it is important for bnei Torah to STOP LEARNING TORAH in order to join the army, which is now physically weakened?! It is the Torah view that we must make a kli in nature, but ch”v that this kli should be on account of Torah learning. ESPECIALLY when the alternative is not just bittul Torah (why bittul? because there are others who are more fitting to do this melacha in the current state of thing s- read the above half of my response), but it actually HARMS the spiritual state of the drafted bochur drastically! I know this from personal experience – my own experience in the IDF as well as many, many who did not make it beruchniyus because of the multitude trials and tribulations that service life has to offer. I can explain this more at length but this is not the place for it…

I think Rabbi Yehoshua Pfeffer’s more nuanced approach is best. He wouldn’t make the assertions Simcha613 made but thinks it is very important for chareiedim to participate more in the IDF and society in general. not that that doesnt come with challenges or that it should be done wholesale and drastically.

Lies or not, I think it’s a colossal mistake for Chareidim to object to the draft based on either shmad or bitul torah.
These reasons, at best, are not going to appeal to ochlei nleveilos utreifos.

But the real reason to be anti the draft- for EVERYONE–is that the government, and the IDF, have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS ASKING–DEMANDING–PEOPLE TO RISK THEIR LIVES WHEN THEY COULDN’T GIVE A HALF A BLAST ABOUT IT.
They do their best to put the soldiers on the line to kiss up to their American enemies. To save Gazan terrorists. The people are SICK and have no business whatsoever drafting anyone.

Note that secular Israelis, who appear to be the economic and political elite, i.e., the ruling and/or upper class, are NOT complaining about government institutions coercing their children into becoming frum. They are making no demands for “secular” accommodation. They are not complaining about over-representation of religious Jews in the officer corps of the military. The fact that they dominate the country is strong evidence of the bigotry towards the non-elite groups (the religious, and especially Hareidim and religious non-Ashkenazim).

It has been well documented that the secular-run army has the effect of moving a considerable percentage of Jewish recruits into a secular lifestyle they did not have previously, and that it appears that the biggest determinant of whether a young Israeli brought up religious does, or does not, “go off the derekh”, is military service. One should note that this takes place before they run into the significant discrimination in employment they encounter after the military.

@hakatan
The Zionists chose to invade the area a century ago – against the wishes of the Jews there – and the Zionists proceeded to light the area (and world) on fire; it’s not anyone else’s responsibility to put out the Zionist fire.
[katan]
—–
Irresponsible. Totally Irresponsible.
Terrible and krum.
Since when does the Torah exempt from the hiyuv of saving a yid from a fire just because a tsiyoni started it ???
Let the yid burn because a tsiyoni started it ?
Does hatsole anywhere, operate on the basis of such principles ?
Shomu Shamayim …..

HaKatan said:

“The Zionists chose to invade the area a century ago
– against the wishes of the Jews there – and the Zionists
proceeded to light the area (and world) on fire; it’s not
anyone else’s responsibility to put out the Zionist fire.”

======================================

This statement contains many falsehoods and classic
anti-Jewish propaganda, the same kind of anti-Jewish propaganda
that has been used many times by Nazis during World War II,
and by professional terrorists, like: the PLO, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

During World War II, the Nazis operated a newspaper called
“Der Stürmer”, which was filled with false anti-Jewish propaganda.
HaKatan’s comment would fit perfectly into the pages of “Der Stürmer”.

Notice how HaKatan’s comment blames *** ONLY *** Jews,
for *** ALL (100%) *** of the problems, both in Israel and the world.

In HaKatan’s view of the world, *** ALL (100%) *** of the problems
are the fault of the Jews, and *** ONLY *** the Jews, which implies
that the Arabs and Muslims are blameless and innocent.

Jews did not “INVADE” Eretz Yisrael, they bought it with money,
at very high prices. And it was given to them by both the
League of Nations and the United Nations Organization.
But HaKatan chose to ignores all that.

Sharing the burden of the Torah community is a Jewish value. Sharing an imposed burden by enemies of Torah who want you to not keep the Torah is not a Jewish value

An internal meeting of dati leumi educators has determined that around 30 % of their youth go OTD because of IDF enlistment , and they resolved that price is a worthwhile one , since it is being paid for the defense of the State.

It is clear that service of yeshiva boys in the IDF has a dramatic effect on their yiddishkeit. To argue otherwise is simply unrealistic.
There are many elements within the government and the IDF who would love to ‘reform’ and ‘reeducate’ the haredim.
Forced Service for haredi youth in the IDF is an ideal tool for them.

This might be a case of metu echav machmat milah where one is exempt from a mitsvah because of tragic precedents.
This is not a blanket exemption, however.
There are cases where this heter would not apply .

How to manage such a delicate situation while we are in galut between our misguided and sometimes hatefilled brothers , is a an unenviable task better left to ziknei gdolei torah veyirah.
.

@AAQ
I’m assuming that your post was a [cowardly] response to me.
If so, you characteristically completely missed the boat.

I’m making a completely reasonable declaration that in order to mandate a draft you have to A]risk the soldiers’ lives not one iota more than necessary. B]Be out to win the war. {I don’t remember if I actually discussed B} in my above post, but it’s still true.}
Failure to do that voids any right to make a draft.

Now, the questions: SO, what’s gonna be? What should we do? Do you want to die?

Great questions. Excellent questions. Phenomenal questions. I’m not offering any answer.
But it remains true. In order to have the right to impose a draft, the government must meet the above two criteria.

Participant (and we all are), I think I responded to someone else. I see a problem with your argument that you talk like a consumer: those in power owe you a justification for you to agree to something. Think like a free religious person about your obligation to Hashem and other Yidden. Someone (a person or a community) who lives together with others needs to participate in the society. If you think Army is not doing something right, vote and raise your own officers and push your policies. Sometimes, in a democracy, you have to even accept a decision that you think is wrong.

“Yeshiva as a Maimonidean desert” that Chazon Ish created is not a correct analogy. Living in a desert presumes you take care of yourself, not erquesting others to send an army to protect your oasis.

Arabs who kicked out the berbers**

@katan
…. the Zionists started the war against the Arabs (and British) long before 1947. The “Partition Plan” came much later after the Zionists invaded against the wishes of the Jews and also lihavdil the British and Arabs ….
[katan]
====
You seem to forget that one cannot misrepresent facts [it is a three letter word in English starting with an L] even letsoreh kana’ut .

‘The zionists’ encompass many groups . Some fought the British, some did not.
The hagana , the labor zionists , between 1917 and 1948 [the years of British rule] ,did not, except for a short period between October 1945 and August 1946.
The etsel and the lehi , the revisionists did.
So much for the facts.
.
The zionists did not ‘invade’. They did not conquer EY.
They came to live and work there.
Some came legally, with British permission, some came illegally, without British permission [like Rav Wosner z’l].
So much for the facts.
.
They did not come against the wishes of the Jews.
The overwhelming majority of the Jews wanted and explicitly petitioned the British for unfettered Jewish immigration to EY.
So much for the facts.
.
All those facts are easily verifiable , as verifiable as a simple letter in karyane de’igreta …..
.

sorry, aaq. I didn’t [and still don’t] see any other post suggesting their own protection, so I figured it was a misinterpretation of my post.

@avirah
Yankel, the “who started it” is just as childish as when kids get into a fight. Both sides can point to an earlier point where there were attacks or aggression; it’s not clear at all who started it,
[avirah]
==============
This is not a playground squabble. This was a discussion about contravening 3 Shevuot , al hatsad that they apply lema’ase.

You stated that 300 villages in the hands of the Israelis contravenes the Shevuot. Whereas the fact that they are in Israeli hands is a direct outcome of real Arab attacks and threats to repeat the Mongol Massacres chvsh.
The Israeli’s proclaimed their medina when the Mandate expired. If the Arabs would have kept within their allotment under the UN Partition Plan of 1947 , the Israeli’s would too.

Remember , the Israeli’s accepted Partition. The Arabs did not, they aimed to drive the Jews into the sea.

Pikuach nefesh is docheh the shevuot. That was the point.

Yankel, right, I refer to that conversation. I am just exploring what this implies. I don’t think Rambam demanded Army protection in the desert, but expected to fend for yourself.

Hakatan, you can disassociate from groups you don’t like, it is fine by me. But then you need to make sure that you live an honest life without taking more than you are giving, whether you are in EY or in Stamford Hill. If you don’t want to rely on idf, negotiate with the government to move to an area adjacent to the border and organize your own self defense, either train fully chareidi militia, or pay Wagner group, or daven. Same for financial support. If you push for such resolution politically, you may not get immediate agreement from most ardent Zs, but you will get a lot more support and respect from regular Israelis.

@hakatan
Regarding the Chareidim in the Zionist parliament, that is halachically almost-impossible (read Rav Reuven Grozovsky’s biayos haZman). And according to the Satmar Rav and others, it’s severely prohibited.
====

It is more than ‘possible’…..
Haredim in Israeli Parliament is not only possible , but accepted halachic practice dating back to the very first Parliament in 1949.
This is supported by the overwhelming majority of Poskim ,Rabanim and Rashei Yeshivot in EY and in in Huts La’arets, not only as ‘permitted’, but as a Chov Gamur and as a Mitsva.

Some Kana’im do not participate , but this has no bearing on accepted halachic practice , as mentioned.

It’s been a few years since I wrote here, but I can see some of the same voices making the same noises.

It would be useful for the chareidi oilem in E’Y to take on a part of the burden that it can see fit and control – for example, take on the entirety of fire fighting services. Direct national service to that, and control the environment. Or some of the para medical services. Or some of the needs in hospitals. But don’t be reactive – take initiative and take responsibility.

The alternative is that in a few short months or years, an aroused electorate, who have just sacrificed their children in this Milchemes mitzva, will reverse every financial gain the Netanyahu aligned chareidi parties have achieved in terms of budgets. And you will look at this “shmad” of the greatest amount of learning in the history of Am Yisroel being done right now on the dime and the backs of those whose sons and daughters also sacrifice their lives to protect you, as a distant memory of bounty and good fortune. At that point you’ll have the luxury of pointing to those people who resent you and say “see, see, I told you they hate us!” but you’ll have a fraction of the resources and you’ll still be bleeding away the achdus of the whole Am, as well as the goodwill that helps fund your existence. Congratulations on making your own challenges bigger and more difficult.

And finally, if you can’t or don’t want to see the difference between “koichi v’oitzem yodi” and doing one’s hishtadlus, you haven’t been paying attention to anyone or anything going on around you for decades and fundamentally don’t understand your environment. That can’t be beneficial for you. You still have my tefillos for your full teshuva and greater understanding.

Avira > Rav shach said in the 80s that this psak no longer applies. Under Menachem begin, things were different.

Note that Rav Schach advised against an agreement between Haredi politicians and Begin to have fully gov-funded haredi schools in order not to lose ability to maintain private support.

doom > Sharing the burden may be a good midah in general, but every middah should be evaluated. Charity is also an important middah … The fundamental of being a frum Jew, is declaring that Hashem’s word is of highest importance in your value system

Thanks for posting a reasonable argument! Having someone else defend you, against his will, does not seem to me to fit into Jewish value system. Pages and pages of gemorah are spend on how to be considerate of other Yidden. Having them serve in the army instead of you seems worse than not helping his animal to unload…

> If your commander orders you to do something prohibited by the Torah, you must do it.

As you look at serving as an optional activity, this is surely a justification not to go. But if you look at a joint need for defense of the community that you have to participate – then, this is something that you have no control of while you are engaged in an activity. Steipler was trying to keep shabbos in Russian army .. and many others

> all of my friends went to the Army, and almost all came in frum, and came out OTD.

this is terrible, and if the numbers are so skewed as you say, even startling. There are a couple of questions to ask:

1) what was their education that did not prepare them to deal with real life. Yes, there is a great value in keeping community safe from problematic activities, but at the end, it is up to individuals to follow Torah. Is Hashem expects us to follow Torah only when fully furnished and subsidized? It is an insult to our ancestors and everything they went through.

2) if you understand responsibility, then you can work on making things happen. Same way the community shows power to protect itself and also find government funds to use, could use this power to make sure that some members of the community are trained to be part of charedi units and deal with tensions between army orders and observance.

Yankel – could be the gerrer rebbe allowed it, or it could be there were extenuating circumstances, but either way, rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk for changing the yeshiva world’s policy

Quick note, on Arutz Sheva hebrew website, there is right now an interview with Dr Shuki Friedman on Haredi enlistment. If you understand Hebrew, go read it yourself, I would link it but I don’t think that it’s allowed.

Here is what he has to say:

והדבר הראשון הוא להפסיק את התמיכה באורח החיים החרדי
The first thing is to end support for the haredi way of life

So you see, they are quite open about their plans, and always have been. All you have to do is listen to how they speak about it to each other.

Avirah…, stop with your libel about the blood thurst!! Just some Zionists felt that in view of how the Arabs and the British acted they would not get the country that was promised to them in a different way.
and the violence was started by the Arabs who started to attack Jews once they realized the Zionists wanted to restore the Jewish state in the land.

avira > rav shach received a lot of criticism from brisk

here we go again. If someone else disagrees w/ Rav Schach, then he is an apikoires. But my group can. Can we all have equal rights here?