“It’s more than a bad idea, it’s an abrogation of the ratzon Hashem”
could be, but unlike a clear/cut and dry halcha, “ratzon Hashem” is harder to ascertain. That same gemara says all who live in chutz Laa’aretz is as they do Avoda zara, Zionists focus on thsi gemra and come up with tirutzim why the other isnt really Avodas Hashem you do the reverse. Im sure you have very creative tirutzim (probably better than the ones youve shared so far, – note I’m not asking you to share them Ive heard them before I rely on them, I dont live in EY)
AAQ
“With all talking past each other, there are some statements here that look like real debate!”
First half is correct
Second is not.
There is no real debate. There has been no new information uncovered. ALL the se arguments have been made over and over for over 70 years.
Nobody is changing minds.
I do find it amusing though when in an effort to defend an untenable position all sorts of strange arguments get mad.
you do highlight a great one, that I pointed out earlier
You point # 3 though is only partially correct, the UN voted to create a State, the possessors who conquered Eretz Yisrael (the British) had tunred over the issue to the UN.
For reasons yet to be explained, although normally Kivush of land is a kinyan, this is an exception