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Israel is waging a terrible war on Gaza. The footage coming out of Gaza is horrendous.
Gaza is sending rockets daily into Israeli territory but, you know, Israel has the Iron Dome so they should just accept it as a part of life. The left seems to have taken the position that any country in the world wouldn’t turn an enemy country to rubble for sending rockets if they had an Iron Dome.
October 7th happened and the Israel Haters seem to say, “well, you know, context.”
The one thing that the Israel Haters can’t reconcile is the hostages. They know that there is no justifiable reason to have taken them in the first place, and definitely to keep holding onto them. Hamas knows that as long as they hold onto the hostages, the war will continue. The longer the war continues, the worse Gaza looks. The worse Gaza looks, the more public opinion turns against Israel. This is their biggest dream. Even if Israel is successful at wiping out Hamas, if the world views Israel as evil and barbaric, then Israel will have won the battle but lost the war. It is for this reason that Hamas cannot release the hostages.
Hamas sympathizers realize that this war is justified. These posters are a reminder that Israel is the victim and Hamas is the aggressor. These antisemites realize that as long as these posters are up, there remains sympathy in the world for Jews.
These posters don’t even label Hamas as a terrorist group. All they do is show a face, a name, an age and has the words, “kidnapped”, and “bring him home”. The one place in the United States that it should be safe to hang these up is in a predominantly frum neighborhood like Brooklyn. These posters are basic, not-name calling posters that DO NOT call for a military response, and seem to suggest a peaceful resolution, then realize this: on the list of non-offensive posters, this should be near the top.
If hanging up these posters in predominantly frum neighborhoods is a call to violence then realize what you are saying about the safety of Jews anywhere in the USA. Either get out because the safety of Jews in the USA is in serious peril, or stop complaining about the posters.
If you wondered, I moved to Israel because it doesn’t seem the safety of Jews in the USA is guaranteed. I hope I’m wrong.
These posters are, in a warped and “woke” mindset, viewed as provocative because, in their view, they are essentially defending the aggressor Israel. The rest is irrelevant to them.
It doesn’t seem that the safety of Jews in Israel is guaranteed. Especially if you read the navi about what will happen at the end of days, etc.
I think it says בהר ציון תהיה פליטה. Actually, I’m sure.
I would suggest that you stay in Israel because its a mitzva and not because US in unsafe. Then you get the זכות of the mitzva! In Tehillim it says הפך ליבו לשנוא עמו That Hashem is causing all this hate.
A wake up call to come HOME! I mamash Have rachmonus on an organization that is calling jews to call and send emails to their representatives in congress. Mamash Rachmanus! It wont help! Take what you have and run!! Apparently Galus America’s time is up. Dont be there when evreything caves in. COME HOME!Why is there ALWAYS someone who posts this Aliyah stuff?
Evalimoshavlo:
It’s a machlokes to when that even refers, including yimei Chizkiyahu, bayis sheini – see Ibn Ezra.Regardless, it is forbidden for all of, or even a large bloc of, Klal Yisrael to ascend to E”Y before Mashiach. The Zionists tried that (and also rebelled against the nations and took political rule, all of which are forbidden under pain of “Ani mattir es bisarchem…”) and created the cataclysmic disaster there (and also the Holocaust) as a result.
Of course, if there were no need for Jews to be in galus, to gather in the nitzotzos haKedusha wherever they are, then Hashem would just send Mashiach. Therefore, there must be Jews outside of E”Y when Mashiach comes.But Zionism doesn’t like any of that because it goes against its idolatry and heresy.
Sending emails to Congress is also essentially driven by Zionism, whether they realize it or not, as the Zionist “State” is not what is protecting the Jews there; just the opposite. As the Brisker Rav noted, the Zionists’ unending war are due to Zionism, of course; the Jews who did not survive those wars – that’s also due to the Zionists; the Jews who did survive those wars – that’s due to the lomdei and shmorei Torah and not the Zionists.
The Zionist “State” will be history, probably much sooner rather than later.
And if America turns against the Jews you think Israel will last more then one day? The bottom line is that one thing we should have learnt from the past ten weeks is that Hashem only can protect us, and our time would be best spent trying to fulfil his will, and as far as hishtadlus is concerned, the argument that the state of Israel- which has both a government and enemies that have no regard for Jewish lives- is safer, is simply factually incorrect. Just look at how many Jews have been killed in Israel because of their Jewish identity in the past century over the USA, and that should put that argument to rest.
@ hakatan
1] There is a clear Mizvah nowadays to live in EY .
And to buy property in EY .
Am quoting Shulhan Aruch and Hazon Ish here.
Accepted Psak Lechol hadei’ot.2] Whether ascending to EY as a bloc is halachically prohibited nowadays is a matter of dispute amongst the poskim . It is imperative to remain honest.
3] Sending emails to Congress is imperative because of Mass Pikuach Nefesh .
It is as clear as day that those monsters want to repeat Oct 7 until there is no one left .
It is equally clear that no one is interested / capable to stop them .
So – yes it is imperative to send emails to Congress .
Lo ta’amod al dam rei’acha.
It is a Lav De’orayta.4] Katan is so brainwashed by his ‘shita kdosha’ that he ends up being megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalacha .
@ my voice
‘Just look at how many Jews have been killed in Israel because of their Jewish identity in the past century over the USA, and that should put that argument to rest.’
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Sorry but you are mistaken .
You might be correct in your assessment of the past .
But what is kove’a, is not the past .
Only the future is kove’a .
If you close down the medina , you have millions of innocents who will be in harms way chvsh . Clearly and Immediately .
Not the UN , not NATO , not the Arabs States , not the US .
No one else will be able to protect the yidden there .
Not in the short term and not in the long term .
No point in deluding yourself ….Hello ?
@ Yankel berel
Why do you think the future will be different. My point was simple, the threats to Jewish life are much greater in the state of Israel, and I don’t see any signs that those threats will abate in the future. And additionally, if anti-Semitism in America ch”v grew to the point that it was a serious danger to Jewish life, at that point presumably one could assume that the American government will cease its support for the shnoror state of Israel, which is a death sentence for the state and all it’s residents ch”v, Hashem Yishmor.the Jews who did survive those wars – that’s due to the lomdei and shmorei Torah and not the Zionists.
If you mean that the Jews didn’t survive due to the Zionist SHITA – this may indeed be true.
If you mean that Jews didn’t survive due to Zionist PEOPLE – i.e. the soldiers – this is equivalent to saying that your family doesn’t survive due to your financial support.
The ruchnius of a war is fought by those sitting in yeshiva learning, and the physical war is won by the soldiers fighting with physical weapons.
אילמלא דוד לא עשה יואב מלחמה ואילמלא יואב לא עסק דוד בתורה
Were it not for David, [who studied Torah,] Joab would not have been able to wage war successfully, and were it not for [the military acumen] of Joab, David would not have been able to study Torah.
(סנהדרין מט,א)Going to war to protect Jewish cities (in Eretz Yisroel or in chutz laaretz) is a HALACHIC OBLIGATION even on Shabbos!
If it’s a border city, we must go to war on Shabbos even if the enemy just came to steal some STRAW!!! How much more so if they came to kill 1000﬩ r”l!שלחן ערוך אורח חיים סי’ שכט ס”ו-ז:
עכו”ם שצרו על עיירות ישראל אם באו על עסק ממון אין מחללין עליהם את השבת באו על עסק נפשות ואפי’ סתם יוצאים עליהם בכלי זיין ומחללים עליהם את השבת ובעיר הסמוכה לספר אפילו לא באו אלא על עסקי תבן וקש מחללין עליהם את השבת: הגה ואפילו לא באו עדיין אלא רוצים לבא [א”ז]: יש מי שאומר שבזמן הזה אפי’ באו על עסקי ממון מחללין שאם לא יניחנו ישראל לשלול ולבוז ממונו יהרגנו והוי עסקי נפשות [ומ”מ הכל לפי הענין] (פסקי מהרי”א סי’ ק”כ):
Regarding non-Jews who besiege Jewish cities: if they come for money, we do not desecrate the Shabbat [to protect ourselves], but if they came to kill or come with no presented reason, we go out with weapons and desecrate the Shabbat. In a city that is near the border, even if they just come for straw or hay, we desecrate the Shabbat. Rem”a: Even if they haven’t come but they want to come (Or Zarua). There is one who says that in our times, even if they come for money, we desecrate the Shabbat, because if we do not allow them to plunder the money, they will kill, and so it becomes a case of saving life. (In any event, everything is according to the situation(Piskei Mahara’i Chapter 156).)The Zionist “State” will be history, probably much sooner rather than later.
Amen, speedily, with the coming of the TRUE leader of Klal Yisroel – melech hamoshiach, followed by the TRUE kibbutz goliyos.I think it says בהר ציון תהיה פליטה……
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Katan to Evalimoshavlo:
It’s a machlokes to when that even refers, including yimei Chizkiyahu, bayis sheini – see Ibn Ezra
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Actually ,that’s the pasuk the Hafetz hayim quoted to Rav miPonevezh . Hafets Hayim spoke in 1933 before his petira and cried about all the terrible things which were going to happen to the yidden in Europe. When asked where will be the yeshua , he quoted that pasuk .
Rav miPonovezh , Rav Kahaneman inscribed those words on the outside wal of his yeshiva…
So, at least an authority no less than the Hafets hayim , who could safely be described as the greatest rabban shel yisrael in the last few generations [whose sfarim on sh’a are considered lehalacha in the overwhelming majority of haredi jewish homes],who connected this pasuk to our present situation.
So ,Evalemoshiv can’t be that wrong ….
Menachem:
You can’t compare the legitimate kingdom of Dovid HaMelech with the “band of thugs that descended there”, to quote the Brisker Rav.I quoted the Brisker Rav that the “hishtadlus”/”metzius” argument of the soldiers accomplishing anything for Klal Yisrael is false. It is only Hashem Who saves and through the merit of those who learn. Comparing to Dovid HaMelech’s army is silly and a non-starter.
yankel berel:
Yesh, actually, Evalemoshiv can indeed be that wrong.Gedolim (and talmidei chachamim) often use pesukim to describe their thoughts. That’s what the CC did in your story. But to knock out meforshim from your story is simply silly and a non-starter.
As well, other nevuos discuss, and the Brisker Rav brought this as well, that half of [the people of] Yerushalayim will be taken and the other half will flee for the caves. Sounds very safe, yes?
There is also the chazal that, just like by mitzrayim, there will be a 40-year exile of those in E”Y and, like the first time, only a fraction of those will merit returning.
yankel berel:
No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes. It is forbidden to ascend en masse, regardless, as the Satmar Rav shows from multiple raayos, etc.Sending emails to congress to save Jewish lives (in Israel or elsewhere) is okay; but sending emails telling congress that Jews love Israel is not okay. The recent rally and the emails are all infested and infected with Zionism and that’s not okay.
@ menachem shmei is correct
Pikuach nefesh warrants a response . not less than pikuach nefesh from a machala l’o.
Doing nothing is a travesty .
Doing nothing [where your action could have made a difference] makes you [partly] responsible for the bloodshed .
Elementary torah logic .So – WRITE TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE in Congress or Senate .
As Most Rabanim Ruled.Not sure what complaining about what “Zionists” did 75 years ago helps. The reality today is that we have Eretz Yisrael and all of the Yeshivot there. Anti Zionism literally means ridding Israel from Jews. In the reality there is no other alternative to what we have in Israel today – government and all- aside from Mashiah. The next time you bash Zionism just remember that that is akin to a Jew chanting River to the Sea. Because that’s the only other option.
And to the one who said it is assur for the majority of Jews to be living in Eretz Yisrael, it seems you apparently don’t include anyone who doesn’t wear a hat and white shirt as Jews. Had you included everyone you’d know that the majority of Jews already live in Eretz Yisrael.
user176:
The main problem today is what the Zionists do today, not only what they did for the past century.
There certainly are alternatives to the Zionist shmad.
As well, even if there were not any alternatives, it would still be crucial for Jews to disavow Zionism so that gentiles don’t blame Jews for anything the Zionists do.
Bottom line: Israel is a Zionist (and therefore anti-Jewish) – not Jewish – “State”.Hakatan is trying to knock his [and by extension also all our collective heads] through the wall .
What he does with his own head is his own business , but let him please spare all other yidishe heads ….His fanatical Shibud to his Shitah Kdosha makes him believe that he can pasken she’elot hamurot mamash ,without a even shred of cognizance of a weighty and bitter reality .
This reality is unambiguous , and it is very clear and very immediate.
If the IDF goes on strike now , or it doesn’t have sufficient weapons to do its job . Or it doesn’t do its job for whatever other reason, it is very likely that Oct 7 will chvsh repeat itself in a multiplied fashion, hoyo lo tihyeh , yishmor hashem veyerachem .If that does not constitute immediate mass pikuach nefesh , then I am a banana , and hakatan is a cucumber.
Those monsters have to be stopped .
Have to .
Because al pi derech hateva , NO ONE ELSE WILL .Do we need Siyata dishmaya – for sure .
Im Hashem lo yishmor ir , shav shakad shomer ?
Sure , 100 % !!!This is alef bet. Pashut kebei’a bekutcha.
I wonder why such dvarim pshutim even need to be written.We have to do whatever we can ,to save yehudim .
No less than if there would be an earthquake ch’vsh .
We would mobilize . We would write our representatives in government.
Exactly the Same here.@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
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Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
It is forbidden to ascend en masse, regardless, as the Satmar Rav shows from multiple raayos, etc.
[hakatan]
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Not sure why you keep on omitting the clear psak of Harav Avnei nezer , that LEHALACHA it is mutar to ascend en masse as a bloc .So it is a machloket .
A machloket between two chashuve rabbanim in halacha .
Why does hakatan feel the need to usurp the whole playing field for himself ?Satmar rav is the only Rav around ? There are others too …
Why this ani ve’afsi od ?@Evalemosivlo
you are not right that everyone should drop everything and come home … [as you portrayed it]Moving to EY is not a simple thing at all and lots of thought should be given with regards to one’s own yahadut and the yahadut of ones family and lots of other heshbonot .
I have seen many families in Chuts la’arets being matsliach with their chinuch and yahadut , and when they moved to EY everything unraveled Rahmana Litslan .
Only with yishuv hadaat and after extensive consultation with rabanim with yirat shamayim who know your situation first hand, can one move.
You can’t compare the legitimate kingdom of Dovid HaMelech with the “band of thugs that descended there”, to quote the Brisker Rav.
Are you purposely ignoring the halacha in Shulchan Aruch that I quoted?
Yankel Berel:
“Not sure why you keep on omitting the clear psak of Harav Avnei nezer , that LEHALACHA it is mutar to ascend en masse as a bloc . ”Not sure why you omit that the Avnei Nezer also wrote “וקשה מאוד לעמוד על הבירור כי תלוי בדברי אגדה”.
As well, the Satmar Rav strongly disagrees (as you noted) and brings multiple raayos for his position.Regarding the reason to favor the Satmar Rav over the Avnei Nezer: that would be Jewish lives,Edited
Since WW II, has there ever been a more blatant instance of “Ani matir es bisarchem” than what occurred on Oct. 7?
Please respect Hashem’s gezeiras haGalus. If you can gain more from going to E”Y, that’s great. But please don’t disrespect Hashem’s Torah.
Edited
Did everyone see the video of HaGaon HaRav Aharon Feldman shlit”a asking a shaila to Maran HaGaon HaRav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a whether Yidden should pray for the soldiers? Rav Shternbuch paskened that we should rather pray for the welfare of all of Klal Yisroel.
Did everyone see the video of HaGaon HaRav Aharon Feldman shlit”a asking a shaila to Maran HaGaon HaRav Moshe Shternbuch shlit”a whether Yidden should pray for the soldiers? Rav Shternbuch paskened that we should rather pray for the welfare of all of Klal Yisroel.
I didn’t see it. What was the rationale for this psak halacha? What’s the source in Shulchan Aruch?
UJM, If I was at home with my family and we had a burglar in the basement, and you went downstairs with a knife to confront him and protect my family, I would DEFINITELY add extra tefillos for you – regardless of your ideology.
This is in addition to the simple fact that tefillos seem to be more necessary for someone who is in greater danger than for one who’s in lesser danger, and the soldiers are obviously in greater danger than other citizens.
Hakatan,
I’m still wondering: Do you believe that it’s a halachic obligation for soldiers to go out with weapons and fight to defend cities where Jews live?
If not, how do you explain שלחן ערוך או”ח הלכות שבת סי’ שכט where it says that even on SHABBOS, even in CHUTZ L’ARETZ, even if the enemies only come to STEAL STRAW & HAY (in a border city) – we are obligated to take arms and fight?
Menachem Shmei: Over here the regular citizens are at risk. as well. as was nebech terribly demonstrated on October 7th with 1,200 casualties and 240 kidnappings, as well as r’l on numerous previous terrorist attacks.
So why would you question a Psak of the Godol HaDor to pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel?
Menachem Shmei:
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.Menachem
> I would DEFINITELY add extra tefillos for you – regardless of your ideology.A good question that people need to confront. I am thinking of those who are adding tehilim but avoid any mention of soldiers. Say, you are jumping into a fire to save someone’s child and the parent says – thank Hashem for saving my child, would you appreciate his deep religiosity, and will Hashem ?
@ Menachem
If a fellow lit your house on fire, and then had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process his life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
Point being, the reason why you would pray for them specifically over just praying that you be saved is because you feel indebted to them for what they’re doing. In this case, when they’re just cleaning up their own mess, we don’t owe them anything.
(Understandably, this only refers to the Zionist army as an institution, if one knows a soldier and would like to pray for him, such behavior is definitely warranted.)@hakatan
I do not have avne nezer with me .
It is a good few pages .
I learnt it a few weeks ago .
Will try to look it up again .
But cannot rely blindly on hakatans quotes.
Had some experience already .@hakatan
If you want to favor Satmar Rav over Avne nezer , I will respect that .
No problem .
But that does not absolve you from honesty and stating the facts .
You cannot claim that ALL rabbanim are agreeing with you .
You have to state that there is a Machloket and that you think satmar rav is correct .
Otherwise you are plain misleading .@hakatan
You write to me – please don’t disrespect The RBSH’O ‘s torah .
Where do I ever disrespect the Torah ? CHVSH !think that misquoting from, and ‘deleting’ , acceptable shitot from ge’onim muvhakim is much closer to disrespecting the torah …..
@my voice
If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
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Hope You’ll notice the slight change …
——-@hakatan
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
—
in other words-
The Army is a non starter . The Jews are allowed / should.
Even on Shabbat .
So it seems it is pikuach nefesh . Even according to katan.
So if the ‘jews’ cant do the job . Follows that the Pikuach nefesh is still present .
Remember we had Shabbat . We had pikuach nefesh overriding shabbat .
We had ‘Jews’ trying to [be mechalel shabbat] and take away the p/n , but did not succeed.
So we are left with a problem of p/n , ‘jews’ who cannot solve it . And an army which can take away the p/n .
should we stop the army and keep the p/n ? or use the army and get rid of p/n ?
Katan paskened , keep p/n and stop the army .
Question is – on what basis ?
.
We will need a very well based rationale for this psak .
Because the life , the well being and the property of millions of our brothers and sisters are going to depending on this psak ….> If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart
in addition to this correction, only a multi-generational Yerushalmi can complain like that. Other anti-Zs came to EY under Z protection.
@hakatan
“No, the potential mitzva to live there today, as an individual, is a machlokes.”
katan
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Sh’A in hilchot shabbat is matir [nowadays and halacha lema’aseh] standard amirah le’akum letsorech the mitsva rabba of yishuv EY .
More than what is mutar for all other mitsvot , where you need a shut dishvut to permit an amira.
For the mitsvah of yishuv EY , there is no need of shvut di shvut and it is mutar to ask an akum to do a melacha de’oraytah .
None of the poskim are cholek on the Sh’A in this .So ,to summarize
Halacha lemaaseh according to Rabban Shel Yisrael Maran HaBet Yosef [no cholek]Mitsvah of yishuv EY is noge’a lemaaseh nowadays.
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Am still waiting for an answer from hakatan …..@menachem
You ask for a source for the psak of RMS shlitah re praying for soldiers.Maybe . Again, maybe . His reason is as follows .
Zionism has proven to be a tremendous magnet to pull people away yahadut and from true chinuch .
If we popularize identification with zionist symbols – even when otherwise warranted- ., we risk reinforcing and strengthening the power of this magnet- with disastrous consequences.
Not that al pi torah we shouldn’t pray for them .
Its the probable , or possible , consequences which are the problem .
Just a suggestion .
Might be wrong .Over here the regular citizens are at risk. as well… So why would you question a Psak of the Godol HaDor to pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel?
Again, I didn’t see the video. I’m am just wondering about the reasoning for a psak din that you quoted.
I think we should definitely pray for the welfare of the entire Klal Yisroel in Eretz Yisroel.
The very fact that you specified “in Eretz Yisroel” is because you recognize that they are currently in a more obvious state of danger than other parts of Klal Yisroel around the world, which is why we should do extra tefillos for them.
Similarly, the soldiers are currently in a more obvious and imminent danger than regular civilians in Eretz Yisroel (to claim otherwise would be ludicrous), which is why we should especially have them in mind in our tefillos.And the fact that they are putting their lives on the line to protect millions of other Jewish lives (in accordance with Shulchan Aruch) is all the more of a reason to daven extra for them.
The Zionist army, its shmad, and all the rest, are all against the Shulchan Aruch. Obviously, for Jews to defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch is not in question. But the Zionist army is a non-starter.
Hakatan, stop throwing around these buzzwords and explain yourself.
Are you saying that you have ideological problems with most people in the army? (I do too)
Are you saying that you feel that the general approach of the government in the “state of Israel” is antithetical to Yiddishkeit? (I do too)But what does that mean practically in relevance to the soldiers fighting?
What you mean that Jews must “defend themselves as per Shulchan Aruch… but the Zionist army is a non-starter”?
Are you suggesting that we should establish some sort of shomrim brigade to enter Gaza and fight in competition to the army?
Similar to how the arabs (l’havdil) have Hamas and Islamic Jihad competing with each other?myvoice: If a fellow lit your house on fire, and then had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process his life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
yankel: If a fellow’s grandfather lit your house on fire, and then his grandson had a change of heart and tried to extinguish it, and in the process the grandsons life is endangered and your survival is dependent on his, you would pray for him or just for yourself?
Yankel, you took the words out of my mouth.
Honestly, I think that myvoice admits this at the end of his post:
Understandably, this only refers to the Zionist army as an institution, if one knows a soldier and would like to pray for him, such behavior is definitely warranted.Myvoice, I possibly agree with you on this. The more generalized institution of the “state” may be deeply flawed, which is why I wouldn’t hang the Zionist flag or sing their anthem.
However, the Jewish soldiers, Jewish teens straight out of school or yeshiva, who are currently giving their lives for protection of fellow Jews deserve our greatest admiration, respect, gratitude, and tefillos.
What difference does it make what was the ideology of the people who created the government which organized these troops?@hakatan
you cannot prove satmar rav is more right than other rabanim who disagree with him , from the events of oct 7 .
Tach ve tat was much worse when compared to oct 7 . much more ‘matir bisarchem ‘ r’l .
There was no zionism at that time .
And nevertheless there was this ‘matir bisarchem’ .
Must be that there are other averot which could also trigger such an outcome .
If those [or other] averot existed then , they could exist now too .
So it might very well be those other averot at play now too .
And not zionism.Hakatan you seem to be living in a theoretical bubble. You can’t ignore the reality of what’s happening in Israel today. When you actually consider the reality you can formulate a real opinion. Otherwise you can just repeat the same thing for 75 years and when a real question comes up simply shrug your shoulders because you are doing just fine in the US and what’s happening there doesn’t really matter to you except in theory. You just just know that Hamas supporters quote people like you all the time. They say “These are the “real Jews” that also hate Zionists just like us. They also think Jews don’t belong in Israel until their God tells them to go.” But unlike you whose opinion takes you no further then the coffee room, they conclude that all Jews should be removed from Israel. That is the natural conclusion of this mind set. Disagreeing with how the state is run is one thing. But denouncing it all together in order to escape blame for their actions is a direct Sakana to everyone living in Eretz Yisrael.
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