Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Problem with Melech HaMashiach from the Dead
Tagged: Chabad, Lubavich, lubavitch, Melech HaMashiach, moshiach, Schneerson
- This topic has 157 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 2 months ago by yankel berel.
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June 26, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2203004SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
WARNING: If you believe that the Melech HaMashiach (“messiah” in English) can die and then return from death to complete his mission, then *** ANYBODY *** can claim to be the Melech HaMashiach, and then “explain” his failure to achieve the Tanach prophecies by claiming that he will achieve them after he dies and returns from death.
June 26, 2023 11:04 am at 11:04 am #2203078☕️coffee addictParticipantWe need another anti lubavitch thread? You couldn’t just piggy back on a different thread?
Anyways is this a pre three weeks thread so we can get ready for sinas chinam?
June 26, 2023 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2203116RedlegParticipantAlso, if Moshiach can be from hameisim, who needs some rebbe or anyone else? What’s wrong with David HaMelech himself?
June 26, 2023 11:11 am at 11:11 am #2203124Jewish ThoughtflowParticipantThis does not sound like a theological argument against a Moshiach’s candidacy after death (hard to make one knowing the amount of sources that support such an idea), more like a concern of the ramifications of such a Torah idea. I suppose we can add onto that the concerns of a false prophet only making negative prophecies and therefore never being able to be disproved (at least in the view of Rambam), or the fact that Moshiachs can take many years to complete their mission. It is also a bit interesting that you would think that this particular idea would help False Moshiachs as false Moshiachs are quite common throughout Jewish History without using this particular method (probably because as long as you are not dead you can still be a running Moshiach who is finishing his mission, and once you are dead the gig is temporarily up).
You also seem to be confusing someone attempting to be Moshiach, with the actual arrival of Moshiach. The latter would require the fulfillment of certain big action items (see Rambam end of Hilchos Melachim). Saying I will do those action items after I return from the dead will not help his actualized Moshiach status. But, his lack of completing those actions while he is still alive does not hurt his potential Moshiach status, so not much to be gained by such a claim.
Furthermore, not everybody can Moshiach. There are a lot of prerequisites. It is not like the dead Moshiach idea was the only barrier to becoming Moshiach (again, I am still very confused as to how it was a barrier at all.)
Also, what if it was not a true idea and the false Moshiach convinced everyone it was a true idea, then what? Like is this a policy suggestion? Is this meant to be a statement related to the true and falsehood of Torah? Very confusing.
All in all, it must have been before your first coffee when you decided to write this. Not exactly a paradigm of coherent thought.June 26, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2203163AviraDeArahParticipantSinah = hatred
Chinam = baseless
Why is criticizing an ideology hateful, and if it is, why is it baseless?
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203179commonsaychelParticipantGive this subject a rest.
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203183GoldilocksParticipantAviraDeArah,
Criticizing an ideology isn’t hateful at all.
Criticizing people because their ideology is different than yours may be problematic.
Actively disliking or disparaging people just because you don’t agree with their philosophies is problematic.
Don’t be so quick to dislike others just because you think that their ideas are wrong. They may be good people who are simply mistaken. Perhaps they mean well, but they’ve been misled by others. Or perhaps it is you who is wrong. In any case, they’re still our fellow Jews. Think and act accordingly.June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203185GoldilocksParticipantI have a novel idea. Why don’t we all agree that when Mashiach arrives, we will welcome him, whomever he may be?
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203238yuda the maccabiParticipantthe idea of a second coming was started by christianity
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203243somejewiknowParticipant“Why is criticizing an ideology hateful, and if it is, why is it baseless?”
because the specific ideology you are looking to criticize, is a criticism that has no toeles plus you are doing it very publicly to an audience that it not connected to the proponents of the ideology.Your question lacks any sincerity. If you really want to know the answer to your question, for yourself, you would ask your rav to clarify how or if the ideology is tenable. If you personally are not interested in have concluded that the ideology is wrong, yet you want to understand how it is possible for an honest Jew to believe that ideology, you would need to address your question privately to someone who is an adherent of or at least well versed in that ideology. If you don’t know anyone to ask privately in that community, there are very public rabbanim from that community that are not hard to find.
On top of that, the issue you bring up has been well discussed and debated and you (seemingly) are not bringing anything new to the conversation.
At best, you are trying to give tochacha to a community you think is wrong, however, no cherem, psak, or announcement has denounced the community or the ideology from any prominent rabanim or bataei dinim. If I am wrong, and such a move has been publicly made, than you wouldn’t need to ask your questions here, you can just reference the authority.
You are just a bully trying to get people to think bad on other holy Jews. sinas chinam.
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203244☕️coffee addictParticipantAvirah,
Sinas chinam is looking how each of us is different and accentuating it
So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them
You’ll think they’re crazy and they’ll think you’re crazy
I don’t see a point to multiple “rebbe being moshiach” threads and why now?
June 26, 2023 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #2203246lakewhutParticipantWe learn from Korach not to get involved with Machlokes.
June 26, 2023 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2203298AviraDeArahParticipantLake, i suppose opposing tzedukim, karaim, shabsai tzvi, reform, conservative, zionism, and every other bad idea was against the Torahs lesson from korach?
Was pinchas also guilty of not learning from korach?
The Torah tells us not to associate with reshoim and to actively oppose things that are against the Torah. It’s not live and let live. Any it’s not “machlokes” or “sinat chinam,” it’s defending the honor of Hashem.
Chazal say “if someone whispers in your ear, “do you oppose the wicked”, know that his heart is after them’ (megilah 6b)
June 26, 2023 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2203301Nathaniel101ParticipantA
June 26, 2023 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #2203307LostsparkParticipant“So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them”
Thank you for making it so clear. I don’t get why people have to be so harsh when these ideas aren’t something that would warrant cherem. At worst believing the Rebbe is a shtus and nothing more, case closed.
June 27, 2023 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2203391☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIt may be a “only” a shtus, but it’s a dangerous and harmful one.
Still, the OP’s tayna doesn’t work – the false moshiach is still alive, so why would he need Moshiach min hameisim as a defense? Hrs not taynaing anything after he died.
I personally find Redleg’s tayna more compelling than the OP’s. Still more compelling is the fact that until the Rebbe’s petirah, the idea of Moshiach coming from the dead was never accepted as a mainstram position in Klal Yisroel, even in Chabad/Lubavitch. That’s why his petirah was so devastating to those who believed he was definitely Moshiach – because it totally didn’t fit the narrative. Some of those who couldn’t wrap their heads around the fact the Rebbe wasn’t Moshiach retrofit their hashkafa around his petirah, finding sources which may or may not support the notion – but at most those sources had the status of a daas yochid (bracing for comments about my screen name).
June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203414yankel berelParticipant1] ramban [vikuach in front of spanish king] categorically rejects possibility of mashiach from the dead.
2] chabad itself universally rejected that possibility .All their mashpiiim. All their rabbanim.
When their rebbi was alive still , it was an article of faith , one of the IKAREI EMUNA . that he could not die . Dying would be classified as a failure of mashiachs mission .
Doubting that , would classify one as an Apikores , no less.
Not me saying this . ALL of chabads rabbanim and mashpiiim ! said this.June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203413yankel berelParticipant1] ramban [vikuach in front of spanish king] categorically rejects possibility of mashiach from the dead.
2] chabad itself universally rejected that possibility .All their mashpiiim. All their rabbanim.
When their rebbi was alive still , it was an article of faith , one of the IKAREI EMUNA . that he could not die . Dying would be classified as a failure of mashiachs mission .
Doubting that , would classify one as an Apikores , no less.
Not me saying this . ALL of chabads rabbanim and mashpiiim ! said this.June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203393☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantWhether or not debunking the Rebbe being Moshiach is sinas chinom probably depends on the intent of the poster, and I don’t think it’s fair to judge someone’s intent as malicious unless it’s obvious.
June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203355amiricanyeshivishParticipantmods didn’t like?
June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203337amiricanyeshivishParticipantI think Trump is Moshiach. He is ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech. He just doesn’t know it.
And he is still alive.
And he moved the embassy to Yerushelaim.
Defenitly more than any Rebbe did.
And he has kids to be yoitze the Rambam.
And they are even Jewish. Maybe.
And he is having a second coming. Hope not.June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203334somejewiknowParticipant“Lake, i suppose opposing tzedukim, karaim, shabsai tzvi, reform, conservative, zionism, and every other bad idea was against the Torahs lesson from korach?”
Again, if the ideology is indeed “against the Torah”, you would be correct. However, there has been no authority who has made such claim, so at this point it is “sinas chinam” to publicly deride the ideology or its adherents.
June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203327Yabia OmerParticipantThis is the most important topic for Jews in 2023?
June 27, 2023 9:55 am at 9:55 am #2203325lakewhutParticipantYou have to be careful that you’re doing it in a way that’s Lshem Shomayim. Chabad isn’t Karaite.
June 27, 2023 10:31 am at 10:31 am #2203453commonsaychelParticipantWhy give this Troll what he is craving?
June 27, 2023 10:38 am at 10:38 am #2203460Yserbius123Participant@lakewhut You’re right. There are very few Kara’im around these days and they don’t prostelize. No yid, whether they are frum or not yet, will confuse a Kara’i with a legitimate Torah true Jew and think that they represent frum Jews.
June 27, 2023 11:09 am at 11:09 am #2203461☕️coffee addictParticipantCommonsaychel,
To answer you, if you don’t feed the trolls the CR becomes dead
June 27, 2023 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #2203457Orthodoxrabbi1995Participant1. As rav Chaim said when someone wanted to bring proof from a debate that moshiach has to be ben acher ben to shlomo “one cannot bring proofs from debates”. But even if you wish to say that you can, there are other debates which say moshiach will come from the dead and he will be dovid!
2. Let chabad decide if they are being consistent or jumped the gun with conclusions etc. Thats for chabad to figure out, whatever the conclusion of that is has no affect on the topic of the thread which is whether moshiach can come from the dead and whether in the end g-d will choose the rebbe. G-d could choose the rebbe independent of what the movement says. But as an aside, I personally know lubavitchers who held moshiach could come from the dead before gimmel tammuz as i likewise heard from lubavitchers that people told them the rebbe cant be moshiach because moshiach will come from the dead and nobody today is worthy.June 27, 2023 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2203456Orthodoxrabbi1995Participant1. That something is a christian idea doesnt mean it cant be a jewish idea. Afterall both christians and jews believe the jews were redeemed from egypt, that adam and chava ate from the tree, that there is reward and punishment, in a moshiach etc. Are we to say that we must throw out half of our beliefs because someone else also believes them? “Shared ideals” are allowed to occur.
2. It isnt even the case that moshiach coming from the dead is a christian concept. Yoshke was killed, resurrected 3 days later and then ascended to heaven in his body. Meanwhile, if you believe the rebbe is moshiach you either 1. believe when he resurrects in order to reveal himself or 2. is alive in this world in his kever or some hidden way. Meanwhile the christian is waiting for his descent from heaven. The resurrection for them has nothing to do with his “coming”. In fact, you should really have a question on the zohar and arizals account of moshiach that he will ascend to shamayim and come back down after a time. That is way more christian than moshiach coming from the dead. It is a curious point that in zero of the debates does a christian argue that the gemara about daniel being able to come from the dead as moshiach is a proof for the christian worldview. They always quote that moshiach was born during the chorban beis hamikdash and was taken to gan eden. The reason for this is obvious: Saying moshiach MIGHT(as the gemara says he might be from the living) be able to RESURRECT and redeem us has nothing to do with christian belief that moshiach HAS to DESCEND body and soul from heaven to redeem us.
3. It is very popular to believe that klal yisroel has had a simple universal concept of moshiach but that isnt the case. There have been all kinds of beliefs about moshiach which only get more interesting with the spread of kabbalah. Some say moshiach will resurrect, others say he will come from heaven in a body or as an angel, others say he is alive but looks dead, others say he will be enclothed in a fake body etc etc etc. Baruch Hashem jewish beliefs have much variety. Perhaps for a rationalist like rambam people being concealed in hidden worlds or resurrecting wasnt seen as anything to seriously consider, but kabbalah is now the name of the game and one must recognize these types of things are rather normal belief. Whether its the idea that Yaakov avinu had a second spiritual body which he was able to enclothe himself in after death whenever he wanted as Rabbeinu Bachya says, or whether Yitzchak died as a korban olah but magically appeared to be alive even though he was no longer in this world as the Chiddushei harim says, the jewishness of these mind boggling ideas predates contemporary jewish messianic movements.
4. Why not dovid hamelech? Well if you are a messianist who says the rebbe is chezkas moshiach that means he has a chazaka that he has started the process, why, if you think someone is in the middle of the process would the conversation be open to someone who isnt in the middle of the process? Thats a misplaced response. But if you say you are a messianist who just believes his rebbe will be the one who is chosen over dovid hamelech even though it is technically halachically possible it could be dovid hamelech or someone else, they have on whom to rely. Other tzaddikim of the past continued to believe their rebbe would be moshiach(like the ruzhiner or the baal shem tov) after their passing over other people. If someone thinks that the rebbe is more fitting since he kuched in moshiach he is entitled to have those preferences. There are in fact people who say that this was the reason daniel is considered in the bavli as he prayed for the beis hamikdash and as a reward he should be moshiach who builds the third. A lubavitcher may want to argue amonst these lines.
5. At the end of the day many talmidei chachamim allow for the possibility of moshiach coming from the dead, and many dont. Its a machlokes like any other machlokes like shaving, cholov yisroel or what have you. But as R Dovid Cohen said a few years back on dovid lichtensteins show “its not a pesul at all” “throughout the ages there have been people with this kind of hashkafa”. Enough saidJune 27, 2023 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #2203580GadolHadofiParticipant1995,
If you and Chabad want to twist yourselves into pretzels tirelessly defending why Mashiach can come from the dead, that’s fine. Just don’t call it sinas chinam when the rest of Jewry consider you all certifiably nuts and beyond the pale.
June 27, 2023 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #2203583RSoParticipantI believe there is a major point being overlooked. And that is that the belief that the Lubavicher rebbe is Mashiach is not based on any source. It’s a case of, “We want him to be Mashiach, so we claim he is. Who cares if any of the criteria cited by the Rambam really fit him. We’ll twist and turn the Rambam (and the gemoro) so that it does fit.”
As I recentlly challenged all “believers”, show me how the Lubavicher Rebbe did/does fit any of the Rambam’s criteria. No one took me up on it then and I don’t believe they will now because he absolutely doesn’t fit ANY of the criteria.
And PLEASE don’t tell me that he is a descendant of Dovid Hamelech, because there is no proof of that either, other than a claim that this is the case.
June 27, 2023 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2203600Avram in MDParticipantThere was a lot of push back to this thread. Some specific responses to somejewiknow:
“because the specific ideology you are looking to criticize, is a criticism that has no toeles plus you are doing it very publicly to an audience that it not connected to the proponents of the ideology.”
1. What makes it have no toeles? I’m not convinced that it does or it does not, but you made a definitive statement and I’m wondering what you’ve based it on.
2. AviraDeArah has been debating extensively with Chabad proponents on other threads. There are many Chabad posters in the CR. This kashya was not stated in a rude way.“Your question lacks any sincerity. If you really want to know the answer to your question, for yourself, you would ask” [snip]”
Are all questions asked on the CR insincere? Or just ones asked about Chabad? And why do you see yourself as a gatekeeper on what’s ok or not ok to ask in the CR? And at the end of the day, the OP didn’t even ask a question.
“On top of that, the issue you bring up has been well discussed and debated and you (seemingly) are not bringing anything new to the conversation.”
Actually, it has not, and I have never heard a clear and cogent answer to this question.
“You are just a bully trying to get people to think bad on other holy Jews. sinas chinam.”
Neither the OP nor AviraDeArah made any personal attacks in this thread. This, however, was a personal attack. AviraDeArah expresses his opposition to certain ideologies quite strongly and in a way that seems to inflame passions, and he is sometimes too quick to declare a statement kefira without first getting clarification, but I cannot recall him ever personally attacking or disrespecting another poster. And that is despite other posters frequently attacking him personally, calling him names (e.g., “Aveirah”), and even subtly threatening him.
June 27, 2023 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #2203601Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantGadol,
“The rest of jewry” look that just isnt factual. I dont know who outside ur bubble you have talked to lately, but all kinds of people can be found who are fine with someone coming from the dead or fine with people that say it. I in fact just quoted one. But whoever i quote doesnt matter because as soon as someone defends the possibility that person becomes not trustworthy. In this backwards way i must quote who supports me and yet when i do they are immediately defined as outside the pale.
June 27, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2203602Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantRSo,
This isnt quite accurate. If you want to actually understand a movement you need to listen to what they claim. David Berger who is considered to be an expert himself acknowledges that this belief was in major part fueled by things the rebbe said. The claim is the rebbe taught it, not that we just want him to be. As for criteria, look you again are watching from far away so u do not know all the various strains of thought in lubavitch, but there are messianists who dont think he is doing any of the criteria. Some hold he will return to fulfill them. Yes there are a great many who hold he matched until the status of chezkas moshiach. The problem with “proving” this is that like anything people have different pshatim and arguments for their pshatim. Much of what lubavitchers say is taken from the rebbes sichas themselves. Perhaps you should check those out before you comment further. I dont know where ur getting the idea that we dont know the rebbe was from king david. He himself testified that his father is from zera dovid in an edited sicha. We have the rebbes family background recorded. He is related to the alter rebbe, who is related to the maharal who is related to dovid hamelech. None of this is disputed by anyone in entire lubavitch.
June 27, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2203605Avram in MDParticipantcoffee addict,
“So Lubavitchers believe their rebbe is moshiach and can come from the dead, so what? It isn’t an aveirah (maybe a shtus) and they won’t listen to you and you won’t listen to them”
Because they proselytize it. I have been given pamphlets declaring that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Melech Hamoshiach and that it is my duty as a Jew to proclaim it. Not only that, my community is called “Snags” derisively, and declared to be spiritually dead. And my ancestors are the villains of their stories, chillingly similar to how the “scribes and Pharisees” are the villains of the Xian bible. And they have set themselves up to be the first point of contact with gentiles and non-frum Jews. And if someone like me were to ask a question such as why is it ok to proclaim someone to be Moshiach when the specific things that are supposed to happen at the coming of the Moshiach have not happened yet, or why have I seen people in Chabad shuls davening with a picture of the Lubavitcher Rebbe on their shtender, it’s declared to be sinas chinam?
June 27, 2023 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2203606Avram in MDParticipantlakewhut,
“We learn from Korach not to get involved with Machlokes”
You don’t shy away from machlokes when the topic is politics.
June 27, 2023 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2203612Yserbius123ParticipantAll these justifications are saying “Well the Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be dead…” (which, derech agav, isn’t even true, and has unanimously been the consensus until 1996). You may as well say “The Torah never says that Moshiach can’t be a purple monkey!” or “It’s not apikorsus to say that there are sheidim that steal my socks out of the dryer!”
June 27, 2023 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #2203625Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantAvram,
There is a particular minority section who annoyingly(to put it lightly) proclaims it and have more right leaning views. Most dont like them. But even the ones that dont like them think the rebbe is moshiach.
“And my ancestors are the villains of their stories” you clearly have a lot more issues here with lubavitch than the messianism. Coincidently everybody who posts about this issue always has another 50 problems with something chabad does that makes them intolerable. Im not saying its sinas chinam but it definitely isnt a simple pure and kind question of sources eitherJune 27, 2023 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2203626HaKatanParticipantThe answer is that Klal Yisrael’s mesorah says he will be from the living, even if it once was a theoretical possibility as debated in the gemara.
And even if it were possible, it would be, as the gemara notes, Rabbeinu HaKadosh or Daniel (the Navi), not Chabad’s deceased leader.
Coffee:
It very well involve serious aveiros, not just a “shtus” to believe that Chabad’s deceased leader is Mashiach.We have a mesorah that Mashiach will come from the living. They can’t claim that they know better; doing that is essentially throwing out all of Torah sheBaal Peh. If you can argue against all the chachmei haMesorah for thousands of years, then you could just make a new religion, which is what they are unfortunately slowly doing.
June 27, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2203627AviraDeArahParticipantI looked up the headlines podcast. Rav dovid cohen did not say that the idea of a dead messiah is valid, only that it doesn’t make one pasul, as in, an apikores. He also claimed that other jews have had such ideas in the past, but did not say that gedolim or talmidei chachamim did.
The host also only played a snipet of what rav Cohen said. We have no idea what other caveats or qualifying statements he may have made. The host also clearly had a pro-chabad agenda, praising them at every chance he got, and throwing around gemaras without giving the rabbis he interviewed a chance to answer them. Same thing with his snipet of rav shmuel kaminetzky saying that they’re our brothers.
I think it’s understood that the rabbonim who go on headlines know who their audience is and would likely say something different if asked in person; rav shmuels Rebbe was rav aharon, who held very strong views on Lubavitch.
He did have rabbi Hershel shechter speak, who he allowed to speak longer. Rabbi Shechter said that the plain messianics are not doing avodah zara, but that a sizeable, growing amount pray to the Lubavitcher rebbe, which he agrees is avodah zara and requires richuk. He also said that this is exactly how Christianity started; first he was messianic, then they prayed to him, etc…
I agree that it’s not apikorsus to believe in a dead messiah. It’s wrong, and it’s a twisted interpretation of a gemara that the rishonim and achronim do not use in explaining moshiach nearly at all, and it’s of course wrong because they say he started his mission and will return to finish it, which the rambam clearly says won’t happen(if he was not successful to this point…)
But no one’s giving them a stamp of approval. Rav dovid cohens rebbe, rav hutner, had very, very strong things to say about Lubavitch as well. I daven in his shul sometimes; maybe I’ll ask him why he said those things on the podcast, if he’s feeling up to talking.
Either way, rav dovid cohen isn’t rav shach, the chazon ish, and brisker rov, who all held anti chabad views, with the chazon ish calling the Lubavitcher rebbe a kofer for his god- wrapped-in-a-body line.
June 27, 2023 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2203649Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantThis is our mesorah? Where is that written? U wanna quote me a ramban I’ll quote u an abarbanel. U wanna quote me some rov today I’ll quote u a different rav. These things have always been an argument it’s frankly a rewriting of history to think Jews have all been in agreement on all these details.
The Gemaras MAJORITY interpretation actually from achronim and rishonim is some sort of min hameisim at some time even if not now. Idk what mefarshim u are reading. The Gemara isn’t a stira to rambam at all for anyone who knows how to read which unfortunately isn’t many people. The Gemara is saying if someone resurrects at the keitz to become moshiach and do his mission who will it be. The Rambam is saying if someone died during his mission at the keitz it shows he isn’t on any real mission at all. Those are entirely different points. Not to mention rambam already says questions in the Gemara which are not directly Halacha lmaaseh about which the chochom disagree etc he does not paskin on.
June 27, 2023 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2203647Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantAnd oh so the rebbe is a kofer now? I think u have revealed enough bias for one day. As always those who keep bringing up this topic have much more motivating this conversation than a logical argument of facts
June 27, 2023 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2203646Orthodoxrabbi1995ParticipantAvira,
He didn’t say they aren’t pasul he said it’s not a pesul AT ALL and throughout the ages we have had people who believe in this. He said this with passion and in defense. Ur twisted additional words are only ruining what was being said. “Not a pesul” meaning not a kofer but wrong and shtus? Doesn’t say that anywhere u just added that in in order to avoid what he said. The tone and logic of his whole thing was that they are our brothers and there is nothjng wrong. Ur also ignoring where Hershel shachter himself said about the rebbe being moshiach zal zein ken yehi ratzon whoever moshiach is we would like him to come. Again indicating it isn’t a problem. Look, I quote people and then oooohhhh but they aren’t rav shach or some other insert gadol here so they don’t count right? Shifting goal posts yet again. Those who do comment on it being a shtus are referring to saying who it is with certainty many of them will happily say moshiach could come from the dead in general. U need to pick a point and stick to it
June 28, 2023 12:15 am at 12:15 am #2203664AviraDeArahParticipantRegarding my mention of rav shach, the chazon ish, etc…my point wasn’t to move the goalpost. I was trying to say that the Torah world’s policies on dead messiahs and the Lubavitcher rebbe’s status in our eyes was already determined 70 years ago. When someone, even a big person, tells me something i know that the briser rov and chazon ish were opposed to, i listen to the latter, because they were far bigger than anyone alive today. Perhaps eav dovid cohen has more important things to do with his time rhan ponder messianics and their beliefs, but if he were shown the kinds of rebbe worship and cult like messianic fervor, he would have something else to say entirely.
Rav pam and rav avigdor miller stepped back their support for the Lubavitcher rebbe in the late 90s, when more information became available. Not all rabbonim know the metzius about everything; if rav dovid cohen told me something that i know b’metzius to be based on mistaken facts, i would not be allowed to follow that psak.
June 28, 2023 12:16 am at 12:16 am #2203665AviraDeArahParticipantI also don’t know who rav cohen was referring to when he said that there have been jews throughout time who believed in dead messiahs. He doesn’t name any. I’ve never seen a record of even a group of simple jews believing in a dead messiah, except the early christians.
As an adherent to messianic Lubavitch, can you please provide us with an example of a group of jews who thought that their leader was the messiah after his death? And don’t bring up the abarbanel’s general statement about techias hamaysim, etc… we’re talking about a community or a yeshiva, or some group.
As for rabbi Shechters “helevai, just let him come whoever he is,”
He said it after cautioning against overdoing messianic teachings, saying that talking about moshiach all of the time leads to praying to him.What rabbi shechter was getting at was, I think, similar to what the brisker rov said about a kasha someone asked him…someone asked, how can we say “achakeh lo bechol yom…” When moshiach doesn’t come on Shabbos, because techum, etc..
The brisker rov said, let him come and answer your kasha.
The only difference is that the brisker rov was talking about normative moshiach, and rabbi shechter was talking about a deviation, a completely foreign idea which crept up in the 20th century and was the result of decades of constantly talking about moshiach, making it the focus of everything the community did. Do a Mitzvah, not to make Hashem happy and fulfill your purpose, bbut to bring moshiach! Then it became “do a Mitzvah because the rebbe said so,” etc…
I can’t answer for rabbi hershel schechter, but he’s not a gadol in the yeshiva world. He is a leading modern orthodox rabbi who generally has level headed halachik decisions and is a baki in shas and poskim, but he does not speak for me or the hundreds of thousands of bnei Torah worldwide who do not seek out his opinion about anything.
June 28, 2023 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2203669HaKatanParticipantChabadOrthodoxrabbi1995:
Yes, that is our mesorah, going all the way back to that gemara. And nobody called your deceased leader a heretic. But your theology does contain heresy.Also, it’s not “bias” and it’s not “sinas chinam” and it’s not any sina at all, despite Chabad trying to deflect edited; in fact, as a card-carrying Chabad defender, you are obviously the one with the bias.
Most Jews appreciate Chabad’s services and therefore would have no reason to want to speak against Chabad’s theology. So, if anything, they would be biased in favor of Chabad.
But the Torah is truth, and you cannot corrupt it with your heretical theology of what was heretofore normative Christian theology, Rav Keller Zatza”l noted.
Anyone interested in the truth, including the quote from Rav Keller above, can find it at the Identifying Chabad Organizational Website. They also sell a sefer of the material so that you can learn it on Shabbos or Yom Tov or anytime.
June 28, 2023 10:22 am at 10:22 am #2203672RoshYeshivasTainaParticipantChevreh. Who cares???!!! Let the Lubavitcher believe what they want to believe. Why does it bother you? To be sonei chinam lemaan being sonei chinam? If you don’t want to believe the Rebbe ztl is moshiach: no one is forcing you to believe that.
Al kol ponim let’s spend more effort bringing him here than fighting about who he is! In any case he will be accepted. Whether it is the Rebbe or Reb Chaim or Rashi, you will have to accept him. Stop wasting your time.June 28, 2023 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2203673RSoParticipant(I apologize in advance for the length of this post.)
There is so much that could be said in reply, I can’t remember all the points I wanted to contest. But I do remember a few (not in any particular order).
“Quote me a Rambam and I’ll quote you an Abarbanel.”
Even before 1994 Lubavichers were saying that the Rambam is a sefer Halocho and that that is what is relevant, not other Rishonim or Achronim who aren’t paskening. (This is exactly the same reasoning Lubavichers use when arguing that the branches of the menora were straight and not round. The Rambam says so, so other meforshim don’t count against Halocho.) To now say that Moshiach can come from the dead because the Abarbanel apparently says so is disingenuous.
“I dont know where ur getting the idea that we dont know the rebbe was from king david. He himself testified that his father is from zera dovid in an edited sicha. We have the rebbes family background recorded. He is related to the alter rebbe, who is related to the maharal who is related to dovid hamelech. None of this is disputed by anyone in entire lubavitch.”
Sorry for the long quote but I wanted to give everyone out there the opportunity to enjoy it once again. The proof that he is from zera Dovid is… (drumroll)… he himself said so! And his family connection is recorded with NO ONE IN LUBAVITCH disputing it! Well, then. That’s good enough, isn’t it? How very woke! The Lubavicher rebbe identifies as zera Dovid, so we take his word for it. If he identifies as Mashiach we’ll take his word for it. edited
And one other point on the Davidic claim: the claim is that the line goes through Rashi, who had no sons, so that line is not ben achar ben.You claim that people have other issues against Lubavich, not just the Mashiach matter. I agree with you!
As I have written in other threads, I have been in very close contact with Lubavichers – both familially and parnossa-wise – for many many many years. And that means decades before 1994. Even before they started hounding us about Mashiach, they were hounding us about the “correct” things we should be learning, the “correct” way to put on tefillin, the “correct” nusach to daven, the “correct” days to celebrate etc. Everyone else was wrong or at the very best, insignificant. There were no other tzaddikim and no other gedolei Yisrael. People who slept in the sukkah were shallow or stupid, as were people who ate Seudah Shlishis. Everybody was mechuyav to recite Chumash-Tehillim-Tanya, aka Chitas, daily. Everyone was mechuyav to learn Rambam daily. Everyone was mechuyav to learn mesechta Sotah during Sefirah. And the list goes on.
As the Kohein Gadol said on Yom Kippur (and no, I am not chas veShalom comparing myself to him, just using a quote) יותר ממה שקריתי יש כאן. There’s a lot more to say, but I think you get the point.
One final thing I’d like to say. I really liked Yserblus’ statement that it doesn’t say anywhere in the Torah that Mashiach can’t be a purple monkey. Very clever, and VERY to the point!
June 28, 2023 10:53 am at 10:53 am #2203687yankel berelParticipantLets look at the history , the reality , the facts – The official Chabad line as publicized by their rebbe , their chozer , their rabbanim , their Mashpiim FROM THE START ,not any Harry who claims to be Chabad — Ok ?
Lets be honest without any obfuscation and changing the topic .
In the beginning , [1] the line was -Anyone who claims that Chabad claims to be messianic is a plain liar , against chasidus , mechalel shem lubavitsh etc , Only the Misnagdim who tried to besmirch Lubavitsh said so , and it was an indication of their blind hate . Other Chasidim stuck up for Lubavitsh as the innocent victim of Hotsaat Shem Ra. All the evidence is there , in the archives of HaModia and Kfar Chabad and other newspapers of that era.
Then [2] it changed , Chabad Chassidim made a u turn , openly proclaimed their rebbe as Mashiach , but the rebbe openly criticized it . He definitely is not Mashiach . Here too, the evidence is plainly there in all the newspapers of the era . Then [3] he too followed in their u turn , openly acknowledged his own messiahship , clearly evidenced by his periodic near weekly dvar malchus dating from approx 6 months preceding his stroke in the spring of 1992 , until the stroke , also available in the archives, as well the weekly issues of the kfar chabad newspaper the official chabad public organ. . In the meantime [3A] he also proclaimed himself a navi , like chagai zecharia and malachi . Nevua ,after a hiatus of thousands of years ,has finally come back to klal yisrael. b’h. Also clearly documented in dvar malcus [parshas shoftim] . Quite a big u turn , when you compare no 1 – with no 3A. It s not finished yet , because then [3B] as Nevua [!] he proclaimed that Mashiach is here already now kipshuto and will take us bekarov out of galus , and that we are in the first generation of the geula. So as a result there was a wall to wall coallition of all official chabad mashpiiim and Rabbanim saying that [4] it is one of ikarei emuna to believe and follow a navi plus their rebbi is a navi plus he prophesied on himself that he is mashiach plus it is one of the ikarei emuna that mashiach has to finish the geula before he dies . One plus one plus one plus one – equals four . Result – it is one of the ikarei emuna that their rebbi CANNOT die before the finish of the geula . Not me , not I am saying this , This was OFFICIAL Chabad theology. Evidence is there . Its all in the archives . Read kfar Chabad weekly , sichos of yoel kahn . Sichos and articles of mendel wechter , of r ashkenazi rav of kfar chabad [the town], signed kol koreis of virtually all rabbanim of chabad kehillot.
Then [5] the unthinkable happened . He died. The minority, including yoel kahn , stayed with their previous belief that mashiach must finish the geula before he dies [the normative Jewish belief as clearly delineated by the RMBN , Rabenu Moshe ben NACHMAN in sefer havikuach] so they jettisoned the nevua parts . They admitted in being mistaken [!] in that . Here it is not sure where exactly [in their own eyes] they went wrong .. but never mind. The majority however [6] could not bring themselves to throw the navi part out of the window , so they jettisoned the dying part . No, they proclaimed loudly, mashiach can die before he finishes the job . What previously was considered part of the ikarei emuna, is now hevel havalim , or depending on a machloket , where everyone can choose what they like , whats convenient for them .June 28, 2023 11:00 am at 11:00 am #2203663AviraDeArahParticipantThe abarbanel and sdei chemed have been discussed here at length; check out the other threads.
But in no universe would we pasken lile an abarbanel over a ramban in any case; they were completely different classes of rabbonim. And the abarbanel’s sefer which is quoted, yeshuos meshicho, is machniah to the ramban and quotes his vikuach all the time. Funny thing is that I’ve been through the yeshuos meshicho, i can tell you the main themes and points that the abarbanel makes, etc…but that one line is something i didn’t notice. On the other hand, messianic Lubavitchers don’t know the sefer at all, and just quote that one line!
And what was that one line? He says that you shouldn’t be surprised if moshiach is from those who get up by techias hamaysim. It isn’t clear id techias hamaysim happens before or after bias hamoshiach, so the question is up in the air; that in no way is an acceptance of second -coming ideology, where a messianic candidate begins his mission, dies, ks resurrected, and finishes it. This would be clearly against both the rambam and ramban, and the abarbanel basically never argues on either one of those rishonim. While the sefer deals extensively with christian issues, it never makes this concession; if he did, he would have been clearer about it, because it’s a dramatic deviation from the rishonim.
Go through the sefer. Learn it. It’s a great sefer.
But even if tha abarbanel says it could happen, we would respectfully not accept it if the rambam and ramban disagreed, just like we would take the gedolei rishonim over a lone acharon in a shailoh of kashrus, shabbos , etc..
The sdei chemed on the other hand, actually refutes chabad messianics. Because he interprets the gemara about moshiach being min hamaysim metaphorically, as referring to if klal yisroel is zocheh or not, if moshiach will be from shomayim or down here. But he deviates from the plain translation of maysim/chayim.
Also should be noted that this whole thing is only according to the first pshat in rashi. It’s known that Rashi usually prefers the second pshat, and in this gemaea, rashis 2nd pshat is that the tzadikim mentioned are dugmos, and that the gemara is not saying that moshiach will actually be from the dead.
What is meant by mesorah, is that the seforim which talk about moshiach; rambam in yad, igros taiman, igeres techias hamaysim, ramban shaar hagemul, vikuach, maharal, ramchal, kisveo arizal, gaon, yaaros dvash, drashos haran, and tons more… don’t even quote this gemara about the possibility of him being min hamaysim. They ignore it, either because rashis 2nd pshat was accepted, or because it was a machlokes in which we as a klal paskened not like that maan d’amar.
Regarding the chazon ish…sometimes it stings, but yes, there were and are many gedolim who believed that the Lubavitcher rebbe was not a tzadik, a gadol, a nasi, or whatever else. The majority of the yeshiva world believes that. Some think he was a tzadik – i have no opinion, and i don’t care if he was or not. It makes no difference to me, not only because he wasn’t my rebbe, bit because my yiddishkeit does not rest on the idea of the greatness of one man. If i discovered that one of my rebbeim was not a tzadik, it would hurt, but I wouldn’t fall apart in my yiddishkeit, because i do not believe in men. I believe in Hashem, the Torah, and the unbroken mesorah from talmidei chachamim over the generations, who were guided by ruach hakodesh and siyata dishmaya. One person doesn’t make or break that mesorah.
The Lubavitcher rebbes status is between him and Hashem; it’s not productive for me to delve into it, and it’s not really my business. But ideologies that affect my people are my business, and as long as chabad situates itself at the forefront of community issues, including gerus and marriages, it will be high on my priority list to make people aware of the dangers of the neo chabad movement.
For example, nasan of gaza was once regarded as a tzadik and mekubal, but he joined shabsai tzvi; acher went off the derech, one of the rishonim became a priest r”l, and many young talmidei chachamim became maskilim….that doesn’t shake me. But for someone who does mitzvos for their rebbe, talks to him, writes him letters, believes that he himself saves him, that he can answer your questions….yes, a realization or a doubt about him xan rock your world. So perhaps it’s better not to go in that direction; whether or not he was a tzadik, messianism is wrong, and the entire Torah world either laughs at it or repudiates it. Finding a podcast with carefully curated snipets doesn’t change it. Go to BMG, chaim berlin, mir, Torah vodaas, ner yisroel, etc…and see what rebbeim and talmidim have to say about it. Do some footwork.
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