10 Responses

1. There is a clear mandate fr4om the Gedolim ie: Rav Kaniefsky, Rav Shteinman, R’ Dovid Abuchasera, to vote for the only Torah/Frum choice R’ Moshe Abutbol.

   I don’t know why the Chen leaders aren’t flaunting the facts of the race?

   1. Cohen wants to get rid of the Mayor’s discretionary fund-ALL of our tuitions will almost double next year if he gets in-thats chareidi, Tzioni and averything inbetween. Money alone should motivate you to vote for Abutbol

   2. Cohen wants to stifle growth in our fare city including stopping the expansion of route 38 so no more “extremists” move here.

   3. Abutbol has built over 30 beautiful parks for our kids to play on.

   4. Cohen is representative of the evil political beliefs of Lapid a Rasha Ben Rasha who wants to destroy all religious practices and have us assimilate into “normal” Israelis’s

   5. Over 90 new classrooms have been built during Abutbol’s leadership-we need to show Akaras Hatov!!!!

   6. Cohen wants to open shops and run buses on Shabbos Kodesh to accomidate Everyone!!!

   Moshe Abutbol is the clear choice for anyone who values Torah!!!!!

   7.

2. All of the above statements about Eli Cohen are sheker and some of the motzi shem ra. As to Abutbul, he built most of the parks right before the election and they lack basic equipment such as shading. 90 classrooms is a drop in the bucket in Beit Shemesh – lack of classrooms is a major problem.

   It pains me that so much of the support for Moshe Abutbul is based on sheker and motzi shem ra. There is no justification for that.

3. Let the loudest voice be heard… The ppl will have their voice heard tom.

4. Firstly, Dolev, Ayalon, and Best parks to name a few are all shaded and beautiful and “well equiped”. Secondly, 90 classrooms is not ” a drop in the bucket” it is actually very impressive. I doubt you can name a single child who does not have where to go!!! Torah, Yeshivos, and shuls are all flourishing under the leadership of R’ Abutbol. The problem is in the lies and foolishness spread by the left wing machine who spew anti-torah values. Why should I trust that Eli Cohen will guard my values when he stands with an anti-religious Tzibur including the Rasha Lapid who backs him. Make no mistake about it, this election is not about who can clean the streets of Beit Shemesh better, rather, it is a war against religion…YOURs and MINE!!!! This is a war against the very Torah itself. R’ Shteinman, R’ Kanievsky and all the Gedolim have made it clear. This election is about either a Kiddush Hashem Vs. Chas V’sholom a Chillul Hashem. The Yesh Atid party called us liers and thieves-lets prove him wrong and vote for the only Torah Choice-Mayor Abutbol!!!

5. I agree with #2. There is no such “clear mandate”. Abutbol is a corrupt politician. Don’t put a hechser on him because he is chareidi and calls himself Rabbi. The most disturbing part of this election is the sina and pirud he and his cohorts along with support of some rabbanim have created. Abutbol has tossed a few bones our way close to election time to paint a rosy picture. Take a drive around RBS, and you will find filthy streets, uncollected garbage, and broken infrastructure. One more thing, don’t assume that all (working) chareidim are pro Abutbol. I hope the Police enforce the law and arrest those attempting to tamper with the election.

6. Enough already about Eli Cohen and Lapid. They have never appeared together and his independent party has nothing to do with Lapid or Yesh Atid. I have personally witnessed his kovod haTorah. Maybe if R. Shteinman had the opportunity to meet with Eli, he could have seen what a sincere person Eli is and that his interest is in a city that reveres Torah and respects shmirat shabbat while respecting all of its residents and not forcibly changing the character of the city.

7. anyone who doesn’t believe all this stuff about eli cohen, then go listen to the words coming out of the devil himself: http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/%D7%9E%D7%94-%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%9D-%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F-%D7%9C%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%AA%D7%9C-%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A8.html
   it’s a recorded interview with him on kol chai radio
   please listen BEFORE you vote, i’m sure you’ll quickly change your mind about him

8. Let’s note Abutbol’s accomplishments and the main complaints against him and then analyze what (in my opinion) is really going on here:

   ACCOMPLISHMENTS
   Finally fixed the back road (which was forever in need of repair, was dangerous and was opened, then closed, opened and then closed – at one point there were boulders in the back entrance to RBS to prevent people from driving on it)

   Has Paved the Way for the Expansion of Route 38 (this is a big deal, this is one of the most dangerous roads in the country with terrible deadly car crashes – last one I think saw 6 people die – getting to this stage involved upgrading the status of Beit Shemesh and securing national approval)

   Approved and Built RBS Gimmel (as well as other building projects)

   Fixed up Old Beit Shemesh

   Increased Number of Classrooms (with more slated for the future – with, I believe, funding already secured for them)

   Added Parks Across the City

   MAIN COMPLAINTS
   He is corrupt

   He is biased towards the Chareidim

   He has neglected the Daati Leumi

   The city is filthy

   Parks don’t have shade

   The handling of the Orot girls school incident

   The way that RBS Gimmel was approved

   [I believe those are the main complaints]

   Let me address each complain:

   Abutbol is corrupt — I’ve heard this mentioned. If anything seems like Motzei Sheim Rah, this seems to me the best candidate. Like everything in life, I want solid proof – this is a claim that I hear mentioned over and over again – most recently I heard about him turning a blind eye to illegal expansion. That doesn’t quite seem to fit with the fact that AFTER he was elected illegal expansion was clamped down on (and I am referring to CHAREIDI areas of RBS A).

   A serious charge needs serious evidence – to just keep throwing around the phrase that he is corrupt without evidence seems like pure and simple Motzei Sheim Rah to me.

   HE IS BIASED TOWARDS THE CHAREIDIM
   Probably – besides being Chareidi himself, they are also his core constituents. Every politician has to take care of his base – and I imagine that always leads to a bias towards once core constituency. Is he more biased than any other politician is towards their core constituency? Doubt it – but if there is real evidence, I’m happy to hear it.

   HE HAS NEGLECTED THE DAATI LEUMI COMMUNITY
   I think this is a two-way street. My memory is that the DT community basically came out swinging against Abutbol basically from the moment he was elected. I think he made efforts to have a monthly round-table with representatives of all the various communities after the Orot incident – and I heard that that bore some fruit.

   Either way, the DT community certainly feels neglected – and Abutbol as mayor obviously needed to (and still needs to) address that feeling. On the other hand, I think the DT community found the mere idea of Abutbol being mayor intolerbale from the moment that he was elected mayor and that colored many of their actions, statements and responses.

   THE CITY IS FILTHY
   I find this a rather lame campaign position. Yeah, it’s a problem (one that I believe has been addressed) – not exactly the most stinging of attacks. New parks, new classrooms, new roads, new neighborhoods and projects – oh, but the garbage collection needs improvement. It’s the type of attack you make when you don’t have anything else to go on.

   NO SHADE IN THE PARK
   I find this even lamer than the previous attack. He built beautiful new parks throughout the city – oh, but there is no shade at the parks. THE BUM! HOW DARE HE NOTE BUILD SHADE WHEN HE GIVES US NEW PARKS!!! A more reasonable response would be – thanks for the new parks, now can we have some shade with those parks. I.e., he did something good – it could have been better. It could have been better is not a stingy criticism.

   OROT SCHOOL
   Clearly he could have handled this better. I think the DT community could have handled this better also. A) I don’t think they should have put their foot down (certainly now with their 7 year old girls as foot soldiers). I think they should have looked for a compromise, certainly if the alternative is something as extreme as going to Lapid, which brings me to B) I do not think they should have gone to Lapid and made this an international story.

   There are all sorts of immoral and anti-Torah ways to solve problems. They could taken the guys, lined them up against a wall and mowed them down. That would have solved the problems – it would also have made them murderers. THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. PERIOD!

   Now they will say they had no choice and no ability to compromise. Perhaps they had little compromise room – could be – in which case I am more sympathetic to their putting their foot down. But they had full Lapid choice – no sympathy whatsoever there.

   THE WAY RBS GIMMEL WAS APPROVED
   The charge (as I’ve heard it) is that Abutbol had a deal with Learner which he then broke. I don’t know much about the details, but basically I think it has to do with how Chareidi RBS Gimmel is slated to be. Let’s say that is true – there was a deal and Abutbol went back on it.

   Granted, not good. Is it corrupt and incompetent, etc. No, it’s a negative side of politics that one would like not to see there.

   With that said, I think the main issue was not the deal, but the fact that RBS Gimmel was going to be marketed more towards the Chareidim.

   Let’s say that is true – so what?

   The fact is that Chareidim are moving on mass to RBS and that requires building housing for them. That’s not a crime, it’s just addressing a real need.

   What, then, is the objection to RBS Gimmel being marketed towards Chareidim?

   That the need doesn’t exist? That obviously can’t be the complaint since it simply is not true – there is a massive need for housing for the Chareidi community – in Israel as a whole and in RBS in particular.

   That there is a need and demand for housing for the DT community that is not being addressed? Could be, but from what I understand not anywhere near the need of the Chareidi community. But if there is a need, then it should be met – if not in RBS Gimmel then in other projects. I’m not saying it can’t be met in RBS Gimmel, but it does’t HAVE TO BE. It’s perfectly find to meet the need in another way – so long as it is met.

   Let’s note, by the way, that RBS Gimmel was approved at almost the very beginning of his becoming mayor – which meant there was plenty of time to explore other options.

   Which leads me to what I think is probably the real reason for objecting to RBS Gimmel being Chareidi – that that would lead to a Charedi majority.

   Now that’s an interesting objection. The demographic change to Beit Shemesh started long before Abutbol and RBS Gimmel – and RBS Gimmel was basically just the last step in that demographic change. Indeed, the reason why it was delayed for so long by the previous mayor was exactly for this reason – they don’t want the Chareidim to be the majority.

   So, let me ask you, is the Chareidi mayor who was elected by a 20% point lead over his two opponents 5 years ago ‘corrupt’ or ‘incompetent’ if he approves a project long on the books which will basically just continue a trend that had started long before he became mayor?

   I don’t think so – but I do think that calling him corrupt for such a move is what brings real sinah and pirud. It’s the sinah and pirud that comes from the perspective that we’ll tolerate Chareidim living here, but it’s illegitimate for them to actually become a majority. And if it looks like they may become a majority than we’ll do everything in our power to stop that:

   * We’ll take them to court for ‘breaking an agreement’

   * We’ll immediately attack him and criticize him

   * We’ll put our foot down and refuse to compromise

   * We’ll go to one of the biggest Sonei HaTorah around and join forces with him

   * We’ll run a campaign lambasting not just him, but the entire community that he represents

   * We’ll make accusations of fraud against THE ENTIRE CHAREIDI community (yes, I know there was fraud, yes I know that someone in Bet had a couple of hundred T.Zs – but there was no widespread fraud – as the court itself had to admit — only ‘an atmosphere of fraud’ – that translates into, well, there is no actual evidence, but we can’t let him win — which brings us to our next point)

   * We’ll use political pressure and a corrupt court (and media) to overturn an election which we lost (an almost unprecedented decision – and yes, the court in this country is corrupt – it is run by a secular elite, who appoints their own successors and who has a legal philosophy which rules cases according to what an enlightened, secular elite person would decide in a given case (I didn’t make that up, that’s actually a legal principle of the Israeli courts – at least since Barak))

   [And I haven’t even mentioned the wonderful deal that Bennet and Bayit HaYehudi have made with Lapid – or that Lipman is actually an MK in Lapid’s party]

   In short, no doubt one can point to things that Abutbol and/or the Chareidi community did wrong and/or could have done better. But the DT community has gone far beyond that.

   They have essentially gone to war – verbal, legal, political war – and the reason seems clear. At the end of the day they would prefer a secular government to a Chareidi government, a secular majority to a Chareidi majority. And they have shown that they are willing to fight fierce and dirty to make sure that such a majority doesn’t come about.

9. OneMoreView, thank you for your reasoned explanation. The problem with your argument is that no one is saying Abutbul didn’t do anything and no one is saying he is corrupt. That is a total straw man argument. All of the lies about Eli Cohen are real – on signs and in our mailboxes. What people are actually saying is that they want a mayor who is committed to all the different groups and wont play favorites and also someone with professional experience necessary to run a large and growing city and manage a large budget and many employees. It is a question of whether it can be better. At worst, Abutbul is incompetent and Eli Cohen has proven that he can run large organizations. We who pay taxes here want to know that our tax money is being used most efficiently and across the populations here – chareidim and non-chareidim alike.

10. To iamsamiam:

    ‘no one is saying that Abutbul didn’t do anything and no one is saying he is corrupt’.

    Perhaps we are referring to different campaigns. I’m referring to the Moshe Abutbul – Eli Cohen campaign in RBS – the one where the opponents of Abutbul have painted the election to unseat Abutbul as a campaign against extremism, corruption and incompetence.

    In that campaign, it has been charged over and over again that Abutbul is corrupt, that he is incompetent, etc. Indeed, that is what spurred Rav Malinowitz’s (in)famous (depending on how you see things) letter in favor of Abutbul (see here: http://www.btya.org/?p=2895).

    With that said, it’s nice to hear that at least you agree that a) Abutbul is not corrupt and b) Abutbul has done something (quite a lot, I’d say) for the city of Beit Shemesh. I’m glad that we can at least agree on that.

    Next you talk about the lies about Eli Cohen. I’ve heard this statement over and over again – it’s beginning to sound like a mantra. In fact, my sense is that it actually is a mantra – a campaign mantra designed in yet another way to deligitimize and slander the Abutbul campaign. If you can offer some specific accusations and how they are lies, I’m willing to listen. Until then, I’m going to assume that it’s just another dirty tactic in a dirty campaign – sorry to speak so harshly.

    In terms of committed to all the different groups – besides the Orot school, please let me know in which ways you feel Abutbul wasn’t committed to all the different groups (even there, he was trying to find a compromise between two radically different communities).

    Please note, when doing so, the round table that he set up after Orot to better connect to all the different communities of Beit Shemesh. Also, please please let me know if the ‘lack of commitment’ isn’t do in part to the point I made above – the DT community came out swinging against Abutbul from the moment he was elected.

    And also, let’s not be naive – every candidate has his core constituents. If Cohen gets elected he will know who buttered his bread.

    In terms of someone with professional experience – then Abutbul should be your man – as Rav Malinowitz noted:

    “An incumbent has a record to attack, and everyone makes mistakes—so he is attacked for his mistakes. The candidate who wants to unseat him, on the other hand, has made no mistakes, never having governed anything —so he has no record to attack! But why in the world does anyone think that he will be better than the incumbent, and that he will make no mistakes (even if we could assume that he will be even borderline competent, which of course we also have no way of knowing!)?”

    In terms of the experience needed to run a large and growing city – like Abutbul who has helped that city to become a large and growing city and has been involved in governing that city for years (both as mayor and as a city councilman). A mayor who fixed up the back road, built new neighborhoods and projects, got road 38 on the track to being made much safer, built new parks, new class rooms, new schools, etc. — doesn’t that sound like a mayor who knows how to run a large and growing city?

    In terms of manage a large budget – Abutbul has helped to bring the budget under control — if memory serves, there was a debt, or deficit, of around 80 million shekels when he became mayor and it’s around 20 million shekels now.

    In terms of the statement ‘we who pay taxes’ – does that include all the Chareidim who pay taxes, or just the non-Chareidim who pay taxes?

    I’m sorry, but your response sounds to me more like the type of response I would expect from an official representative of a campaign putting forth pre-arranged sound-bytes, and not serious points. I’m not trying to be insulting or personal – but I am trying to honest and make points that, unfortunately, have not been made more often during this campaign.

    I have no problem criticizing a candidate – I do have a problem with what seems to me like an extremely dirty and negative campaign combined with a clearly biased and political court decision all in an effort to unseat a mayor because of what seems to be a visceral fear of a ‘Chareidi takeover’.