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Rotter, 19.03.23
Achievement for ultra-Orthodox female students in the Math tests: the seminary union Beit Yaakov in first place with a 96% pass rate. At the bottom of the table: The Hebrew and Open University with 34%.
Is Matrix still the big place for frum women to work in?
No, these days the girls are working in govt. offices, accounting offices (the Big Five accounting firms are aggressively recruiting Beis Yaakov girls) and so on. Matrix is still running, but its only one place, and there are thousands of girls. The pay is also twice as much, or more, at these other big firms.
These places secularize former Beis Yaakov girls.
@ujm
I guess to you secular means knowledge or prestigeUJM – never waste an opportunity for kana’us. Truth to be told, many fine kollel wives support their husband in these companies, and are yereios vshleimos. While I do appreciate the need to bash others, I must stand up for these ovdei Hashem.
Rebbetzin kanievsky did bookkeeping, and she was a tzadekes among tzidkonios.
The question is, do the girls who get into prestigious careers get closer to rebbetzin kanievsky, or to feminism and secular culture?
Do they live for their families, or is their family just part of their lives?
Puk chazi. Careers for women often ruin their ruchnius.
Lebdik” UJM’s trolling seems to go over the heads of most posters. Think of a wife locked in the kitchen with a ball and chain around her ankle seeking permission from R’ Yosef to leave the house on Wednesday for 2 hours to to purchase cleaning supplies for Pesach
Aveira,
Growing up MO and becoming a flip-out obviously gave you zero insight into the charedi world. There are countless women, both in this country and in Eretz Yisrael who successfully navigate frum and secular workplaces with strong foundations in Halacha and Yiras Shamayim. They do so together with their husbands, whom they often support in Kollel and based on the advice of their Poskim, with whom they frequently consult. Perhaps it doesn’t fit your small-minded worldview but it’s a daily reality.
Why don’t you worry about your own ruchnius and let them worry about theirs. They’re probably doing much better than you are.
> Careers for women often ruin their ruchnius.
and same for men, of course. We need to separate between two issues related to “career”:
1) desire to advance at a job at the expense of anything else. Not healthy in many cases, (unless you are a Rav, a doctor, a soldier, a firefighter, or anyone else who benefits people …)
2) ability to work in an easier environment, using professional skills.
People often confuse the two. Yes, having professional skills creates a danger of becoming a workaholic, but so does a job of selling phones on amazon. Professional job, when taken in right dosage, satisfies gemora’s and, I think, also Rambam’s, suggestion to have a clean easy job that does not require exhaustion or fear of hunger or using charity.
Tp the OP: do all students take these tests? If not, what percentage take them at different institutions.
Also, how are the boys doing?“Growing up MO and becoming a flip-out obviously gave you zero insight into the charedi world”
This is unfortunately true for a lot of flip-outs in my experience.
Dofi, don’t take my word for it – talk to mechanchos, and they’ll tell you why they encourage their talmidos to get jobs in Jewish organizations or schools. And it’s something i personally see on a daily basis.
Perhaps you think that them keeping basic halacha and asking shailos to poskim means that theit ruchnius is fine.
And that would only go to show how narrow and empty your own view of yiddishkeit is.
Gadol,
It’s really ugly the way you talk to Avira. I know he pushes your buttons, but, please…
And your mischaracterization of the perspective that eschews situations with secular exposure as pushing being chained in the kitchen is equally ugly…Avira,
The truth is that a career in the secular world presents a challenge to both men and women. How one defines success, defines oneself, relates to other, creates compromise, how one changes perspectives, goals, aspirations , etc etc . Without discussing the “Kol Kevuda” aspect, I’m not sure that there is need to make it an issue about women’s ruchniuis per se …
maskildoresh: Thank you for your comment. But why would you exclude the Kol Kevuda aspect?
Maskil, careers are more of a danger to women, because an average yeshiva man enters the workforce with years of intensive learning fortifying him. He maintains a strong kesher to that learning, and it’s gemara and mussar that shape his daily activities and perspective. It is natural for men to go to work, too.
Not so with women. They by and large aren’t capable of independent study, and don’t have much of a spiritual lifeline after seminary, when they’re whisked off into college and work.
Aveira,
This obviously triggers your insecurities but there are countless charedi women in the working world who’ve gotten a solid Bais Yaakov education, including a great deal of Halachic knowledge and Yiras Shamayim. They have then attained professional careers since this allows them to support husbands in Kollel for the long-term. The fact is most of them have opted not to get jobs in Jewish organizations or schools because the pay and benefits there are lousy.
I understand you can’t process this reality but they’re not spending hours every day bashing entire groups of Jews who are different from them. So their ruchnius is just fine; its yours that’s broken beyond repair.
GH haposel bachaveiro.
But you’re not beyond repair either.I can’t believe you would say such a thing.
@AviraDeArah That is a very idealistic way of looking at the world. Unfortunately, even men with years of learning fortifying them, they are still human and often have difficulty internalizing their Torah and are subject to temptation. Fakhert, I would say. Chazal teach us that men have a much stronger Yeitzer Horah than women which is why we have so many more mitzvos. Women also have a stronger connection to their parents and home. So I can make an argument that it’s more dangerous for men to go out in the world.
Men are supposed to primarily go out into the world. Women are supposed to primarily be in the home.
Joseph,
The Gedolim felt otherwise when they began advocating for widespread Kollel learning after the Holocaust. They understood quite well that women would have to go out into the workplace and felt it was worth any drawbacks. They haven’t reversed that decision in the past eighty years.
Dofi: The Gedolim may have accepted that they might have to earn some money doing a job locally, at home or in a Jewish environment. What they never accepted, despite your unfounded protestations to the contrary — and what you’ll never find evidence you can present us with, is that they ever allowed, permitted or advocated that frum woman work in Manhattan, Tel Aviv, etc., in secular gentile culture workplaces.
@ujm Thank you for your input. None of that is true.
Joseph,
As usual, you have no grounds at all for your silly boich svara. The thousands of Kollel wives supporting husbands in learning by working at secular gentile culture workplaces Manhattan, Tel Aviv, etc., prove otherwise.
They obviously didn’t consult with you first on the halacha hotline you claim to answer. Why might that be?
Is it better for a husband to work and his wife to be home with the kids or for the wife to work and the husband learn in kollel? (Kids go to a playgroup or they hire a babysitter)
If the ideal of a woman working in a high paying job in a Jewish institution isn’t feasible, then a strong kollel husband and joining the growing number of Torah programs for women can prevent careerism and secular values from entering a woman’s mind, but kulei hai ve’ulai…
Is it better for the husband in that circumstance to work instead?
That depends who you ask; very difficult question that is up to gedolei yisroel, and it’s one of the dividing points between chasidim and litvish.
Unfortunately the baalebatish world will say that both spouses need to work to live “normally.”
“the growing number of Torah programs for women can prevent careerism and secular values from entering a woman’s mind..”
Believe it or not, there are a very significant number of frum women who are able to acquire the needed academic and job skills to earn a good parnassah, make significant contributions to their community working in the fields of medicine, public health, finance and law, while still living a torah life. Its pathetic how many men simply have a hard time accepting this reality and (putting aside R’ Yosef’s trolls) continue to flail around with respect to women’s capabilities and achievements.Dorah: You have a misconception of what “living a torah life” entails. The OO crowd also claims to be “living a torah life”.
There is a contradiction between careerism with Kol Kevuda, tznius and the proper role of Yiddishe mamas. And the contradiction is especially pronounced even employed daily in a secular or non-Jewish work environment.
I’m not advocating the “women must stay at home” idea – i think there are pitfalls if women are unoccupied; batalah maviah lidei…
Studies also show that women have lower stress thresholds.I think women should have less stressful jobs, supplementing their husband as primary breadwinner, if they’re not in a position where they need the day to take care of their kids.
Then there’s a kollel lifestyle, which is a whole different system, wifh unique benefits.
Gadol, no one’s discussing the contributions women make in their careers – I’m sure there are plenty; the issue is, what is the cost? Are women spiritually wired to be nurturing mothers and aggressive career women at the same time, dedicating so much time and energy to rising a corporate ladder…
It takes a certain unnatural assertiveness.
That’s aside from the spiritual dangers, without having a constant framework of religious actions, be it learning, minyan, etc….men are both wired to be assertive, and have those religious activities ingrained in their daily schedules, which helps counteract the influence of the outside world.
This is a bit backwards. If your worried about women going out, kol kevuda, et cetera, than the typical job in an established (frum, or hiring from the frum community) firm is the more modest lifestyle. Sitting in an office and by a computer, is less up and about than the stay-at-home-wife, who has an outing with the kids on Sunday, meets friends for lunch on Monday, local shopping on Tuesday, mall shopping on Wednesday, and Shabbos shopping on Thursday. The young frum working woman, does a good amount of shopping online. And store shopping is done in quick spurts. Almost all the married woman leisurely shopping around town, don’t work.
The Bais Yaakov graduate’s future spirituality hinges on her personal commitment. Most kollel wives are also wondering where their frumkeit went when they pass thirty. It’s not because of the office. It’s because they do nothing to maintain their education and upbringing. And after so many years, it starts to wear off. Many mothers reengage with their frumkeit through their kids. But it not enough they are adults now and need an adult ruchnios.
Why would anybody not work?
Just for the record: The daughters of both Rav Aaron Kotler and Rav Yitzchok Hutner had advanced college degrees.
N0m: Neither of them worked on Wall Street.
The Gemorah says Michal bas Shaul Hamelech wore Tefilin. Some also say that Rashi’s daughters wore Tefilin and that Chana Rochel Schumacher of Ludmir wore Tefilin. Should we introduce Tefilin into our Bais Yaakov’s?
“If your worried about women going out, kol kevuda…”
N0: Why “If”? Kol Kevuda is specifically cited in Shulchan Aruch (and Rambam) as actual Halacha. It’s a mandatory and obligatory part of Jewish life.
Married women _are_ required to work even if they have enough servants. There are a lot of jobs that are problematic, and some – like Hollywood – might be more problematic for women while still not recommended for men. At the same time, a lot of jobs that are not challenging spirituality much, I think – from WFH software engineer to a neurosurgeon.
Historically, “jobs” often required either muscle strength or travel in dangerous environment, so those were not for women. At the same time, women with property (usually, inherited or gifted by the father) were able to do business – if they chose so, or let their husband to manage it.
Also, some say, that sometimes there is more danger in “heimishe businesses”. An observant person is on guard from non-kosher world, but in the environment where everyone is “kosher”, people can become more relaxed over time.
> ideal of a woman working in a high paying job in a Jewish institution isn’t feasible,
this is not “ideal”. Jewish public is paying already a lot for schools and other community programs. Our ideal includes people volunteering or working for low salaries to enable Jewish public access to education and other services.
Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita said that the Kollel guys with wives who graduated college and are employed in the outside world are generally the first ones to leave Kollel.
AAQ,
So Rabbeim should be happy with low salaries or even work for free? Do you?
n0mesorah,
“Sitting in an office and by a computer, is less up and about than the stay-at-home-wife, who has an outing with the kids on Sunday, meets friends for lunch on Monday, local shopping on Tuesday, mall shopping on Wednesday, and Shabbos shopping on Thursday.”
Just curious if you have ever met any “stay at home” mothers?
Perhaps accountants and doctors should live for less, because the community pays enough as it is and they should want to help everyone…
But no, it’s only Klei kodesh that are undeserving of a living wage that will let them raise families.
Dear Avram,
Good point! I omitted the stay at home mother who is just fine without having to be all over the town. My point is that many frum women in the office, are stay at home moms at heart, with very little social life. Sitting in a secluded cubicle, in front of a computer for six hours, is not a breach in kol kevudah.
Dear Ujm,
Being a guy, my if is directed at myself getting involved in which women are the ones hanging out. Of course, this if would never be applied to you. At your righteous level, certain parts of halacha can not be compromised for even a theoretical instant. But to me, there is always a ‘why should I care’ aspect to these issues.
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