32 Responses

1. I’m sorry, YWN, but what right do you have to call the comments of any Rov chutzpah?!?

2. So he wants to teach Gedolei Yisrael how to read a Ramba”m…

3. Last year, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef ZTs”L said that the Tzohar chief rabbi candidate was a rasha (or something like that). At the time I found it hard to accept, but I knew better than to voice any disagreement, even in private.

   Now I have seen, again and again, how true he was and continues to be.

4. Dear Editor,

   Just about every D”L and charda”l Rosh Yeshiva, posek and rabbi shares views similar to those of harav Feuerstein. If, in your view, a D”L Rosh Yeshiva is not allowed to be cholek on a charedi Rosh Yeshiva – if, indeed, it is ‘Chutzpah’ for a D”L Rosh Yeshiva/Gadol to be cholek on a charedi Rosh Yeshiva/Gadol – then perhaps the time has come to change the name of this website from ‘Yeshiva World News’ to ‘Charedi World News’.

5. Who cares what Feuerstein says? Not every whack job has to be quoted!

6. i have to say i am EXTREMELY impressed. i saw a little this on their website in hebrew. and im like i have to find out about this. This is something that would not pass the radar of english speaking website… but you proved me ENTIRELY WRONG.

   im deeply thankful!
   “in my humble opinion I believe that Rav Eliyahu’s Candidacy for Sefardic Chief Rabbi Of Jerusalem is a crucial and a important one… in some respects representing the cause of Jewish Leadership from a religious-social sphere.

   unlike micro communities..

   thanks again yeshiva world!!! im very impressed by your extensive reach and pervasiveness.. and just for the record like i wrote i follow closely rav eliyahu and his position.

7. Rav Feuerstein is a Rav and is entitled to express his opinion, even if it opposes those of other Rabbanim. Based on what is written above, he was not particularly disrespectful – one disagreeing with a Psak always will believe that the Psak is, by definition, flawed – else, why disagree with it?

   YWN is far more disrespectful to a Rav with their headline on this article than Rav Feuerstein was with his comment on the Psak.

   an Israeli Yid

8. The Rambam he mentioned is specifically talking about a Melech, as it says (quite openly) there.

   Maybe he should look at that Rambam again, and at the one in Hilchos Melachim 1:3 where he says that a Melech can only be appointed with a Sanhedrin of 70, and a Navi.

9. I think it’s a chutzpah for YWN to post such news
   Would they post Christian thoughts? Why is a yeshiva news site posting views of Torah haters who speak out against our gedolim and everything we hold dear to us?!

10. does it say the words IDF or Israeli Defense Forces in the Rambam?

11. Dufus just like it doesn’t say in the rambam IDF it doesn’t say in the torah don’t drive a car on shabbos

12. Everybody is familiar with the maaseh of Shlomo HaMelech and the baby The perek ends off:
    וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ כָל-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַמִּשְׁפָּט אֲשֶׁר שָׁפַט הַמֶּלֶךְ וַיִּרְאוּ מִפְּנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ כִּי רָאוּ כִּי-חָכְמַת אֱלֹהִים בְּקִרְבּוֹ לַעֲשׂוֹת מִשְׁפָּט

    Meforshim explain that Shlomo HaMelech knew from their statements who was the real mother; just that he needed to proof it to others.

    וַתֹּאמֶר- הָאִשָּׁה הָאַחֶרֶת לֹא כִי בְּנִי הַחַי וּבְנֵךְ הַמֵּת וְזֹאת אֹמֶרֶת לֹא כִי בְּנֵךְ הַמֵּת וּבְנִי הֶחָי וַתְּדַבֵּרְנָה לִפְנֵי הַמֶּלֶךְ

    The real mother was the one who stated, “no, my baby is alive, your baby is the dead one”. A person states what is dear to them first.

    I’m sadden to see that Rabbi Rafi Feuerstein is quoted as stating, “…the army and the Torah.”

    Chazal state however, ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם

13. Rabbi tzi yehuda kook was against drafting yeshiva bocharim. He was asked about this during sinai campaign (56). He explained that it was not different than the war of independence. During woi everyone was drafted. Not so during 56. If the government decides that some people are surplus, then bnei yeshivos shoulld stay in yeshiva.

14. #8- Can you not make your argument respectfully?

    Legufo, The pshat of the Rambam (5:1) is that even a king – who may also fight a milchemet reshut – must first fight milchemot mitzva. The Rambam then brings the categories of milchemot mitzva, which include ‘ezrat yisrael miyad tsar’. He does not say that there is no mitzva unless there is a king. Under your reading, the kibush of Yehoshua (and all of the wars in all of the centuries of the Shoftim) were not begeder milchemot mitzva, which is hard to reconcile with (amongst many other things) the sugya in Sottah upon which the Rambam bases his psak.

15. Yagel Libi – Rabbi Feuerstein states, “The atzeres claims the draft law is a chilul Hashem and rebellious against HKBH – as if there is no Halacha to serve in the army.”

    Let’s examine. He states, “The atzeres claims THE DRAFT LAW is a chilul Hashem and rebellious against HKBH.”

    So even he admits in his statement that we are talking about THE DRAFT LAW, not the actual service in the Army. The Draft Law is trying to close the Yeshivas, first the Chareidim and then afterwards the Hesder Yeshivas. (Keep in mind that they are adding another month service for Hesder and the drafters want more!)

    Do you think that the Rosh Yeshivas of the D”L want their doors closed? Are you not aware that the only reason that there was not more of a presence of the D”L was only because of the slight to Rav Drukman?

    The real chutzpa of Rabbi Rafi Feuerstein is his opinion that if you are D”L you are NOT ALLOWED to have a different opinion than his! That is a Chutzpa!

16. Rabbi Feurstein is a nice guy but to suggest he is on the same level either in learning or kedusha as the great Rabbonim of our generation, the chavrei Moetzot Gedolei and Chachmei Hatorah, is just nonsense. #7 is right that every Rav is entitled to express his opinion, even if it opposes those of other Rabbanim but that does not mean that everyone’s opinion is equally as valid.

17. #15-

    1. Your premise that the purpose of the law is to close the yeshivas is one that nobody in the D”L world agrees with.

    2. Your premise that the D”L community did not participate because of the slight to harav Drukman is incorrect al panav. The slight (and he and other leading D”L rabbanim have suffered much worse at the pens of charedi journalists) came after harav Drukman (and many other D”L rabbanim) called on their tzibbur and fellow rabbanim not to participate in the atzeret. Yes, a small number of D”L/charda”l rabbis and MKs backed out after the slight, but the great majority of the rabbinic leadership and of the tzibbur had made it clear that they were opposed to the atzeret milechatchilah.

    3. Which brings us to the final point. Harav Feurstein would never dream of saying that: ‘if you are D”L you are NOT ALLOWED to have a different opinion than his’. But the position of the D”L rabbinic leadership (and tzibbur) on this issue was made very clear before the atzeret. Certainly, harav Eliyahu has the authority to be cholek. A few other chashuv D”L/charda”l rabbanim and rashei Yeshiva did as well. But harav Feurstein was correct to note that they acted out of accord with opinion of rov minyan ubinyan of the leadership (not only of his opinion) and tzibbur on a very fundamental issue. Having said that, in retrospect he may prefer to have spoken of his friend with somewhat softer words.

18. avreimi – I would almost agree with you. However, do you think that it was acceptable to slight Rav Drukman by leaving out a title? If not, then you agree with me that even expressing a different opinion must be done respectfully. Yes?

19. Someone should remind this “Rabbi” that we are not living in the 1960’s Anymore.

    The Glory Days are Over.

    This Mixture of Mitzvot & Medinat Yisrael is akin to Mixing Milk with Motor Oil.

    Let us remember, there are still Misplaced Jews in Medinat Yisrael, that have no Homes due to the [un]holy IDF an Political Campaign against The True Zionists Living at Gush Katif.

    The Numbers speak For themselves !
    between 30-50 % of Dati L’umi Boys that serve in the [un]holy IDF, Leave the Service not Following the Mitzvot of The Torah.

    Rafi, Cant You see the Writing on the Wall?
    Your Community is NOT appreciated by the IDF & The Political Class. You are the proverbial “Useful Idiots” to get their Decrees Past. They will Dump on You & Your Boys Next.

    Let us Realize, that We need to Choose.
    או לבעל או לה

20. # 18 No, I do not think it was acceptable to slight Rabbi Druckman in that way. I believe every Rav who has a ksav semicha from an Orthodox Torah true source is entitled to be called Rabbi if that is his wish. Not everyone with semicha flouts his deserved title.

    #16 – the purpose of the law may not be to close the yeshivas, but if you take the talmidim out of the yeshivas to put them in the army, for whom will the Yeshivas remain open? The purpose of the law is to force [subject to some minor exceptions], under penalty of penal sanctions, all male Israeli citizens over the age of 18 into the army. The closure of the Yeshivas as we know them today will be the inevitable by product of that policy.

21. And do u think it was right of “rabbi” druckman to oppose the gedolom publicly. Stop worrying about the honor of individuals and worry about the honor of the tora

22. “The Rambam he mentioned is specifically talking about a Melech, as it says (quite openly) there. Maybe he should look at that Rambam again, and at the one in Hilchos Melachim 1:3 where he says that a Melech can only be appointed with a Sanhedrin of 70, and a Navi.”

    What he actually says is that a milchemes mitzvah can be fought at any time and reshus beis din is unnecessary
    מלחמת מצוה אינו צריך ליטול בה רשות בית דין אלא יוצא מעצמו בכל עת וכופה העם לצאת
    One of the definitions of a milchemes mitzvah is ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם
    Now you can argue that the IDF does not fall under this definition, but that is not what you said.

23. #18:
    It may or may not have been acceptable to slight Rav Druckman.
    But if the draft law is indeed unjust, that’s no reason for Rav Druckman and the rest of the religious community to shirk their responsibility and protest an injustice.
    במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקין כבוד לרב.

24. #20-

    1. Under the current proposal only a fraction of charedi males of draft age (18-26) will serve. And even that will only begin in mid 2017. The proposal requires that by that date 5,200 charedim be serving voluntarily – out of 60,000-70,000 charedim of draft age. The great majority will be free to remain in yeshiva and those that remain will enjoy better funding. How does that close the yeshivas? I dare say that you can have 5,200 charedim serving without so much as closing a single gemara, let alone yeshiva, vd”l.

    2. But let’s say, for the sake of clarity, that ALL charedim of draft age will be required to serve at some point. What you will have then is a hesder yeshiva situation. The boys will learn a few years, serve in the army and return to yeshiva. No yeshiva will close, just as no hesder yeshiva ever closes. You will have fully functioning yeshivas where every year some of the talmidim are in the army while the majority of their friends remain in the beit midrash. After a while the talmidim who are serving return to the beit midrash and other talmidim go to protect Am Yisrael. Not a single yeshiva need close – let alone all of them.

    3. Finally, a word on criminal sanctions. First, as the proposal stands now, the criminal sanctions clause has been tied up in so many conditions that it will never happen in the real world. But let’s say that the extremely unlikely manages to occur and the clause kicks in. Then what? Well, the general draft law which is applied to non-charedi Israelis includes a criminal sanctions clause. There are two possible punishments: incarceration and a fine. In some egregious cases the military court will sentence a draft dodger to a few weeks in military prison before fining him and sending him home. In most cases they just fine the draft dodger – the military prison system is tiny and throwing him in jail just costs money – and send him home. The military is not going to imprison charedim en masse and even egregious cases will be out in a few weeks if not less. Unpleasant, unnecessary and highly unlikely to occur. But even in that unlikely event the yeshivas will not close.

25. In my simple way of understanding the difference between us (Chareidi Poskim) and them(DL et al) is that Gedolei haPoskim start with the Torah, delve into the appropriate sugyos and determine a proper course to follow, even politically. They, on the otherhand, begin with a preconceived opinion politically and then find sources to boltser their psak. I remember many years ago when there was a big bruhaha over a mixed gender swimming pool in Yerushalayim, The DL rabbis found heterim and leciencies for it. Why? Because their followers wanted it.
    BTW Rav Chaim Brisker ZT”L and the his son, The Brisker Rav ZT”L both said unequivically that zionism’s goal is to eradicate Torah, learning Torah and observing Torah. Im lo neviim hem, bnei neviim hem.

26. Yagel Libi – you say, ” Your premise that the purpose of the law is to close the yeshivas is one that nobody in the D”L world agrees with.”

    Nobody? I beg to differ. Regardless, we can’t take chances on the slight possibility that you are right. Even you must agree that if we are right that the intentions of this law is to close the Yeshivas then the law must be fought with tooth and nail. If you don’t agree with this statement then you don’t really believe in the Torah. (and I don’t mean that you need to believe that this is the function of this bill, but rather “if” this is the true function of this bill)

    “2. Yes, a small number of D”L/charda”l rabbis…” it was that small group I was referring to.

    “3. Harav Feurstein would never dream of saying that: ‘if you are D”L you are NOT ALLOWED to have a different opinion than his’…Harav Feurstein was correct to note that they acted out of accord with opinion of rov minyan ubinyan of the leadership…” Really?

    His words were, “…in my eyes, one of the stature of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu taking part in the atzeres represents he has placed one foot out the door OF BEING A MEMBER of the Dati Leumi community.”

    That sounds very much to me that he’s saying, “if you don’t hold like us then go find yourself another community!”

    I don’t believe it is within your rights to explain him saying, “he didn’t mean that literally, just that he was upset with Rav Eliyahu’s decision.”

    If Rabbi Rafi Feuerstein didn’t mean what he said let him explain himself otherwise, not you.

    With that said, I must state that the D”L are now faced with a terrible predicament. They have always felt that the “Medina” was also theirs and that in time they would influence the masses to do Teshuva. However, in time they will surely see that the Government is not their friend, but rather their enemy. Don’t forget, it was their “friend” that kicked them out of Gush Katif. It was their “friend” that kicks them out of settlements in the shtachim. It is their “friend” that has given our land to the Arabs which contradicts what HaRav Kook, z”l stated, that Yishuv HaAretz will bring Moshiach (this implies that giving away land extends our Golus).

27. #23 galicianer – you misunderstood me. We hold exactly the same.

    My comment was geared towards #16 who stated, “…every Rav is entitled to express his opinion”. I disagreed with him. My argument was, “You are allowed your opinion. You are not always allowed to state your opinion.”

28. “They began with 500 draft deferments and today look where we are. In another 12 years 50% of the 18-year-olds will not be serving because of the chareidim!”

    That is his real concern and that of Yesh Atid et al. (Pen yirbeh v’nosef gam hu al soneinu, v’nilcham banu, v’alu min ha’aretz.)

29. This proves all/most of his statements and accusations false. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/217195/harav-shmuel-eliyahu-shlita-comments-following-the-million-man-atzeres.html

30. C’mon, everyone that never learned Navi knows that Dovid Hamelech didn’t really have an army. Instead he had thousands and thousands of men that would sit and learn Torah to protect the country. And that is how was under every melech yehuda and yisroel for hundreds of years. Torah protects Am Yisroel!!!

31. All you guys who think the DL have some kind of religious Rebbinic system are being very very naive. – It’s a real “free for all”.

    From day 1 they never listened to Rav Kook. He said that one who is capable of learning in full time Yeshiva SHOULD NOT go to Hesder Yeshiva, but the politicians in that camp say and do what they want. they don’t ask the Rabbonim on everything what and how to do, but after the fact the Rabbonim are compelled to make public statements. Come ‘on, you see they don’t have a Moetzes that dictates to the politicians, and Bennet got a big chunk of their vote while there was a total mess in what the Rabbonim had to say about it.

    – It’s not a Torah system. It’s a modern system with yeshiva flavor in the background. The Rabbonim themselves are very very confused, and I don’t blame them – it’s not an easy fit – or any fit – to be loyal to a democratic state and to the Torah at the same time and be religious about it!

    You have to be really naive to think that the senior among a modern orthodox system, that is always very confused, is got to be equal to the senior among us. You have to be really naive not to understand how it’s a total chutzpah for Drukman to say that Rav Chaim Kanievsky doesn’t know how to read a Ramba”m and that it’s a chilul Hashem to go. The Tzohar “Rabbonim” can yell all they want, but the facts are – age and a smicha paper does’t equal you to the great.

    and this Druckman is theone who said Rav Elyashiv is wrong about asking for a sincere Kabolas Mitzvos for conversion, and a major percentage of his ‘converts’ were found after a year not observant, and at that time they were still yelling how we are not respectful enough as we express our feelings about such outrageous foundlings…

    and this guy now is ok with Hsder yeshivos serving only 17 months, while a chareidi has to serve 36…

    Wake up and smell it. These “robbonim’ do not have a system, and they don’t really know what they hold themselves. Anyone can take them down in a basic Torah debate.

32. #26- Nu, so if I – and the entire D”L/charda”l community and all their rabbis, rashei yeshiva, poskim and gdolim (as well as a great many charedim) – don’t agree with your groundless conspiracy theories then none of us: ‘really believe in the Torah’? Such juvenile intimidation tactics may work in Williamsburg. Here they will only get you my blessing that you should enjoy refuat hanefesh bimhera.