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Rabbi Zelig Pliskin said:
An older gentleman, who was still single when most of his peers were married with families, said this:
It is rough being single when all your old classmates are married with children.
The loneliness I feel is deep, deep pain.It is amazing how off-track many people are when they speak to me.
Instead of saying things that are helpful — and I realize that it is difficult for most people to know what to say — they criticize, judge, give useless advice, and — in many ways – say things that make me feel even worse.
I realize that, on some level, they mean to be helpful, but if they would think more about how I probably feel and how I will probably react to what they say, they would be more careful to avoid hurting me so much….
They tell me things like: You should not be so picky!
(Do they suggest that I marry someone with whom I do not feel I will get along?)“You might have missed your bashert!”
(Great! What can I do about this now?)FOUND IN: Growth Through Tehillim (commentary on Tehillim, chapter 102, verse 8, page 186) by Rabbi Zelig Pliskin, first edition August 2004, Mesorah Publications, Brooklyn, NY
The fine line between trying to help and not hurt…
Is this another way of starting a new thread on the Shidduch Crisis from the other side of the mechitzah??
Not quick enough.
When creating a list of brain dead things people say
Nothing beats what you hear coming out of peoples mouths at shiva housesAnyway
Telling older singles to “not be picky” is the greatest piece of advice they will ever hear. I was involved in the older shidduch crowd for years. I can tell you that every person who I knew was being “too picky” is still not married now (a decade later). And many who did get married told me that they had to first change (read : “stop being so picky”) before finding a shidduchDear Mentsch,
I read it that your post is not claiming that all older singles are picky.
>>>They tell me things like: You should not be so picky!
(Do they suggest that I marry someone with whom I do not feel I will get along?)
“You might have missed your bashert!”
(Great! What can I do about this now?)The above is the famous opinion of the Steipler . I know someone who asked those questions directly to the Steipler himself. The Steipler answered that after enough years of going out and not finding anyone who you think will work out it’s time to realize that this isn’t working. The person should have their parents find a Shidduch who they think will work for them. Meet briefly to make sure there is no major aversion and if not just engaged.
Note the Steipler did not actually give this advice to anyone that I know. He was talking in theory. In any specific situation he may have said otherwise.
But the point remains. A person reaches a certain point where their continued refusal to get engaged to anyone they are meeting makes the risk of an unhappy marriage because their parents will make the wrong choice smaller than the risk of their not getting married or their getting married in ten years to someone a lot worse than who their parents would choose for them now.
It may be worth reading R Pliskin’s books earlier on.
Those who tell people “stop being so picky” are the nastiest people around.
You don’t know what’s going on in somebody else’s life, although you may think you do. It’s NOT constructive criticism. It’s NOT caring. It’s BULLYING in it’s purest form.
It comes from the same place as the old saying “sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me”.
Continuing from my last post
Why don’t you just punch somebody in the gut. They’ll hate you, but the pain will go away faster.
Pekak
Off topic……
Ya what I’ve heard at Shiva houses it’s incredible how stupid people are. I don’t understand why people say stupid things there. Guess they are trying to comfort them but don’t know how so they just use any words….
It’s not clear to me and I’m sure to many you just want to punch that person and stuff up his mouth to stop talking and saying stupid things.Yes being single is hard I don’t think that if you’re older means it’s because you’re being too picky it can also be that reason but there is many other reasons. So hearing that should make you want to ignore the guy the same way he says something stupid and you’ll know that he’s wrong cuz you’re own issues or whatever you’re trying to figure out. I personally let things in one ear and out the other right away unless I feel I can gain something from what was said. It takes a lot to be confident in your spot and past decisions and your current state of life and even they say you missed the bashert to feel ok I’m doing what makes sense for me under the guidance of my Rebbi and I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be right now.
Anyway thanks to all the criticizers and trying to be supporters. I’m sorry but we don’t need and won’t listen to you unless it’s helpful!
Pekak
You may be right
But up to a point.
Now to be honest, I have never said “don’t be picky” to someone. But I have had many coaching sessions where I was strongly trying to imply that.
And everyone has their cheshbonos.
The guy who is 50 and still looking for a supermodel (age 35 or less) , will certainly have his cheshbonos on why anything else will be settling. “And I just spoke to my rosh yeshiva, and he told me I dont have to settle”.
Or the girl, now 40, dating the same guy for the second (or third time) in 5 years. There isn’t anything wrong with him. She likes him. But she feels she can do better. Is it bullying for my wife to tell her “you are throwing away your last chance to have kids”?
I would argue not. I would say it is the greatest chessed to try and drill some sense into people.
There are plenty of people I no longer “red” shidduchim to based on what comes out of their mouth in terms of expectations. And I do not lose a bit of sleep over it.Everyone agrees that *some* people are too picky and, as a result, they are delayed many years in getting married. That being the case, and universally acknowledged, what SHOULD a good person trying to help get married an older single who is too picky, resulting in his singlehood, do in order to help him?
If he refrains from politely and lovingly pointing out to him or her that he or she is too picky, and it is resulting in their remaining single, then that single person may never stop being too picky and, thereby, indefinitely sabotage their own married prospects.
The only solution is for someone to help the single understand that they are being too picky.
The guy who is 50 and still looking for a supermodel (age 35 or less) will certainly have his cheshbonos on why anything else will be settling. “And I just spoke to my rosh yeshiva, and he told me I dont have to settle”.
I’d be more worried about the Rosh Yeshiva who is advising a single 50 YO “Yungerleit” to wait for his “supermodel beschert” and not “settle” for any מיאוסקייט. Must be a very progressive yeshiva
@dorah
There you go again!
What mentch1 was saying is that people will often quote their Rosh Yeshiva as saying what they wanted to hear. Not the Rosh Yeshiva actually made such a statement.
He was making a case in point about how the picky older single doesn’t wish to see himself that way, and will interpret the reality in according to how he wants to see things. But you see a negative commentary on hapless Roshei Yeshiva, and an opportunity to make a snide and depreciating comment about them.You are badly jaded. Many of your comments reflect this. I feel sad for you
And yes, I’m expecting the response you will give, if you deign to respond.
Gadol
I’m getting sick of your comments around here. You make no sense
Gadol
When it comes to asking shaylos, it’s how you phrase it.
Keep in mind I am leaving out details, but he was phrasing the age issue as being lshem shamayin. I knew better. And I called him out on it and offered to conference call with the RY to clarify the issue.
He did not take me up on that offerSometimes when you know (and yes, you DO know) that your words will undoubtedly cause pain, and you know (again, you DO know) that your words will not help, give the person a hug.
Dear Square,
Why are the parents choosing for their child? I know of some great guys whose biggest problem is that they trust their moms way to much with their own life.
No one has yet addressed how to help those who ARE too picky become cognizant of the fact that they’re being too picky and that it is sabotaging their marriage prospects.
Does anyone consider the possibility that some older, unmarried people may be tova? And some of them may be in undisclosed tova relatonships.
huju: Did you consider that some unemployed people may be rotzchim? And may be employed as an undisclosed hitman.
Quote:
– There is nothing whole, like a broken heart,
– nothing straight, like a crooked ladder,
– nothing crooked, like a straight “vertel”…[<hurting Comment supoosedly as a joke].
TO THE MODS:
Please remove huju’s comment and UJM’s response. They are both Lashon Hara. As you say in the rules for the CR:
“2 – Loshon Hara will not be tolerated at all. We are not and will not become Lashon Hara central (keep this in mind when starting a thread).”@TrueBT, although I am not a huge fan of Huju’s haskafa, how is this Loshen Horah? he just asked a question
My only problem with huju was with his spelling of toeva
I’m glad you didn’t call it rechilus
because lets face it, we all know at least one marriage (or maybe a half dozen) that have broken up over this issue. “it’s a sick world out there, and getting sicker”Unless you have your head buried in the sand (or elsewhere), it obvious that in the real world there exists a number of older single individuals whose marital status is by choice. The number is probably small, but Huju’s comment acknowledges a reality so calling it “lashon horah” is to deliberately hide from that reality, even though some would consider it contrary to daas torah.
There are many other reasons one may choose to never marry.
The solution for older single guys? Be עז כנמר and go up to any girl you think you may like and ask her out. Just do. Just do. If the avos hakedoshim were hanging around a well to find their wife, I can’t think of anything more ‘inappropriate’ than that. You too, just do. חטוף!
A certain elected office ostensibly modern orthodox got married for appearance’s sake, he was forced to resign from office and once it was no longer necessary for appearance sake, he divorced his wife and move in with his friend.
N0m: No there are not many reasons one may choose to never marry. There are very very few such reasons. And those very few reasons are applicable to a miniscule number of people.
He may be a petzua dakoh or krus shofcho
ujm’s first response to my comment is as usual, stupid. She/he is reliably consistent.
huju: For you to strike below the belt and accuse older singles, as a group, of being feigelech actively engaged in the lowest, most sickening, terrible and sinful activity can only be described as truly psychotic on your part.
If what Huju wrote was totally false, it would have been Motzei Shaim Ra. I am calling it Lashon Hara because we are obligated to give the benefit of the doubt to the older singles. Failure to give the benefit of the doubt is clearly true about Huju’s comment. Besides, it causes other people to get angry. The fact that Huju decided to post again and probably make UJM even angrier just proves (to me) that Huju’s first post was also Lashon Hara and should never have gotten past the Mods.
Why stop at Toeva? What if they are addicts? What if they gamble away their money? If you are going to fail to give the benefit of the doubt, then there is lots more to worry about besides Toeva.
If you look at the OP, it said, “It is amazing how off-track many people are when they speak to me.” Huju’s post is a classic example of this.
Just for the MODS who apparently disagree that what Huju wrote constitutes Lashon Hara, here is Hilchos Esurei Lashon Hara, Klal Aleph, Halacha Gimmel: “All of these laws are relevant even if the speaker’s remarks were made in casual passing. But heaven forbid, if this person constantly talks about other people, like those people who routinely sit together, and talk about so-and-so’s doings, or I heard “xyz about so and so… And “Xyz” has a disparaging aspect, Chazal identify these people as Ba’alei Lashon Hara and their punishment is exceedingly more horrible than a casual speaker of Lashon Hara because these habitual speakers of Lashon Hara are contemptously and maliciously violating Hashem’s commandments. They have rationalized what they are doing and now see it as being perfectly normal and permissible as I explained at the end of the Introduction (in the third curse).”Completely left out of the discussion of the Shidduch Crisis is the possibility that Lashon Hara is the source of the problem. Why? Because it destroys trust. And trust is a necessary foundation for marriage.
The advice I have for singles is to ignore the Huju’s of the world Show up to the first date assuming that the person you are dating is 100% Kosher and trustworthy. Then let them prove the assumption correct or incorrect.To ujm: You clearly cannot read. I did not say, or suggest, that all older unmarried singles were toeva.
You, however, have said that they are, among other things, sickening. My calling you stupid is clearly an understatement.And, just to be clear, I make no judgments on toeva people. That is up to Hashem.
Huju
Hashem did already. He called them toaiva which means disgusting.
That only refers to those who do actions of toaiva not though those that don’t get married because of their feelings towards same gender without acting on it. They are giborim who are in a very tough place and are koivesh yitzrom. I am mekaneh their chelek in oilam habbah.To huju: Your writing capabilities are on the second grade level. But that’s at a higher level than your logical abilities. I did NOT say singles are sickening; I said toeiva practitioners are.
Do you make no judgement on thieves and molesters and leave that only up to Hashem? Or do you only withhold your judgement on those who commit terrible aveiros that you do not disapprove of, such at toeiva.
The question is only rhetorical; you needn’t answer as the answer is more than obvious.
Pekak
You missed a fun shabbos
Had some older married couples over at the meal and we were trading stories based on this thread. I Heard 3 stories of older singles being sat down by their friends to have an intervention.
Essentially, these friends were told that if you want to have kids then it is time to settle. Now some people will bristle at that word but it really means settle down as in making a conscious decision to find a nice guy and finally get married.
All of these 3 women got married late 30’s to early 40’s.
All ended up having kids
All married guys that on paper they would have rejected a few years earlier(divorced with kids, chassidik/litvish/sephardi etc)
and, most importantly, all are happy
Is it really bullying? Those interventions helped, but only because the singles listened. Many more do not and stay single and it’s tragic.To ujm: Thank you for permission not to answer. Please help me, what is my obvious answer?
To huju: Show the post to your shrink and he’ll guide you through it.
Penina had 7 sons, Chana had none. Finish the story…
Pekak
Please
The only rational part of that comparison is that obviously it needs to be done l’shem shamyaim and with compassion.
But sometimes the truth hurts.
If you go to a yeshiva it’s with the expectation that the mashgiach will hit you with truth . Whether or not it hurts. Because that’s what we need.
The same when one goes to a therapist or coach.
And what are friends good for if it’s not to tell us what we need to hear?
And the same with spouses
Is it your expectation to go through life without any criticism? We all need guidance and criticism in order to grow.To ujm: I no longer have a shrink. Do you, now, or did you ever, have a shrink?
Mentch
Thank you for talking like a mentch!
ujm and huju
Mud slinging gets you full of mud too.Penina had the same opinion as you. She did what she did l’shem shamayim. She lost everything.
Pekak
But she did it without compassion
That is what the meforshin criticize her for
Not the criticism itself
And you ignored my entire post
Isn’t the ezer knegdo vort that a wife should give constructive criticism?
We are only told to not give tochacha if it won’t be listened to. But advice?
I’m middle aged and still get calls from my parents on what I am doing wrong
It’s the best thing in the world to have friends and family that care enough to give you advice and make you think
You don’t have to take the advice
But it’s caring, not bullyingAll bullies throughout history meant it l’shem shamayim.
גם כי יזקין לא יסור ממנה
“Interventions” are not a Jewish concept.
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