Silencing the Psychotic Medication Debate

Well like COVID. There are a lot of ignorant people in the frum world about mental illness and effective treatment and we don’t need quacks running around.

personal health is just that, personal. Do whatever you want, and I will do what I want

Yserb, medication is very necessary, but speak to anyone who’s gone through a mental health issue and they’ll tell you that it’s just a starting point. Almost no one pops a pill and automatically has a “fulfilling life” nor do they “thrive”, possibly with the exception of ADD kids who take stimulants…a direct, clear response is common, and I’ve seen it in my students.

Avira, from the little I know, some conditioned mentioned above indeed require medication, while those who diagnosed with ADD would often benefit from other approaches. I do not mean that there is no ADD, just that symptoms are such that it is easy to direct bothersome kids into that category, and maybe, as you are saying, kids respond to the medication, it became accepted. My humble suggestion would be, unless there is clear danger to someone, try behavioral approaches, mussar, improving home and school environment before going to meds.

Yserb, i think it depends on the doctor – like all professions, there are some who are quick to operate, or in this case medicate, and there are others who use it as a last resort.

It seems that doctors are very quick to prescribe puberty blockers and hormone therapy for gender confused young people – i realize I’m getting that info from right wing news sources, but i looked up the information that they’re basing it on, and it does seem to be standard practice, and is being pushed by many advocacy groups.

First of all the classes of drugs you are calling “psychotic” meds are called antipsychotic drugs, atypical antipsychotics, ssri, snri, stimulants, anti-anxiety/ benzodiazepines etc… calling an entire group of drugs “psychotic” is demeaning and takes away from your argument.
To begin, statistical data shows Jews of Ashkenazi descent have a higher occurrence of specific mental health disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and major depressive disorder. These conditions are very often treated with psychotropic drugs. While behavioral therapy is helpful in conjunction, when someone is suffering a mental health disorder there is an actual change in brain chemistry and there should be no shame in treating it with the respect and seriousness it deserves.
ADHD is a neurological condition, it occurs when the brain produces too little dopamine. Different people present differently as a result of the deficiency due to various factors not excluding person specific levels of dopamine and other external factors. There are other non stimulant drugs that work for ADHD. Creating black and white scenarios for individuals with unique chemical make ups is not helpful in the long term. Some people feel at school or work they need a ADHD specific supplement and on a non work day they can do without. Others need supplements on a daily basis and there are some that don’t do well with any of the meds and need to work around their personal needs. We are all different and therefore need different things in our lives. There is nothing wrong with taking medication for diabetes or a heart condition and the same applies to mental health disorders. We are all imperfect and doing our own best in this complex world. Judging or making generalizations on groups of individuals is childish and very unhelpful.

Peacho- you are correct that belittling people who are suffering is always wrong. That doesn’t change the fact that it is assur to have such a surgery and it is the mishandling by the medical and mental health professionals that is the problem.

Should be noted that the prohibition of sterilizing people applies to non jews as well.

Wow, you started off right on target. But what a convoluted, twisted crazy conclusion.

I hear that your belief system goes against the idea of gender transition and dysphoria in general. That’s your prerogative. It’s also their prerogative to act according to their belief system. If you have a problem with how the health system is dealing with it, take it up with them. Maybe make an appointment with members in the health system not just from the orthodox community and explain yourself and your views, you might come to a different conclusion or help others see a specific problem etc. But the bashing that I see and hear in this community towards various demographics is shameful to say the least.
On the note of halacha and Avoda Zara, I’m no scholar. I do know halacha is almost never black and white and when such issues do arise in this community (because they most probably will) each individual will do what they need to do with or without halachic guidance. There is nothing anyone can do about it. At the end of the day, this is America and year 2022 we are not Evangelical Christians and a whole lot of rhetoric I’ve been seeing on Jewish sites is very much coming right out of their textbook.

peacho – I’m sorry, nothing is more disturbing than your attitude toward halacha.
You are complaining about 2 seperate issues here, the halachos involved and the way mentally ill people are treated.
For starters, Philosopher is the highly emotional ranting type and is yelling some party line ideas from her teachings/learnings that have much truth and have also proven very dangerous to many. It is being presented as an all out issue whne it really is not one. Avirah, on the other hand, has proven in several recent comments to just spew from ignorance even when admitting he’s clueless on the topic.

I work with trans individuals and children. I also have had training in the mental health field. I have also had to take hours of sensitivity training for understanding trans individuals. NO, I am not all knowing, an expert or a mental health counselor and I won’t pretend to be.

You complain that people speak disrespectfully about individuals suffering. You are appalled that people are insisting that halacha be followed and then advocate for people to do whatever needs to be done regardless of halacha. Do you see the problem here? You are correct that people should be respected and people who are suffering should be cared for, supported and helped. But your second point deserves no respect at all. And you tying the two together makes your argument less valid.

We scream this is assur, but why don’t we talk about the things that we can change?

This is exactly right. But most people like to just scream. Why you continue this sentence to mention a database for pedophiles is confusing. While I would sign up to volunteer 24/7 on such a database to keep pedophiles away from humans, you seem to just be angry. with good reason but this is totally off point.

Or talking to young girls and boys about body acceptance instead of all the shame tactics used by tznius monitors?

This would probably save thousands of lives, mostly spiritually but also physically.

I mean there are so many things we can do to change things but instead we cry about all the perceived wrongs in the secular world.

I don’t think there is much of anything we can do to change the secular world. And as YU has shown (and several posters above), we are struggling with frum people being beholden to halacha in this area when I would have been shocked to hear that this problem seeped in so strongly in the first place.

One obligation we have that we do a lousy job at is screaming out loudly in defense of Torah without trashing the individuals who are suffering.

Hashem Yishmor

Syag, what connection is there between body image and tznius “shaming” lessons? The two have virtually nothing to do with each other. Having busha, shame, in one’s exposure, is healthy, Jewish, and human. So is being comfortable in one’s body and not thinking that they need to be a certain weight or shape to be “good.” It sounds more like peach is just saying that “tznius bad” “body positivity good”

Yserb, those “places” are quite many, and maskilim took that story, which is far older (sefardim say it about suleikah, way before the haskalah) and made fun of it, the same way they made fun of the kohen meshuach milchama, where only the chofetz chaim and rav elchonon were left to fight – rav boruch ber in fact, said to the chofetz chaim that he would fight the Russian army with just him, but the chofetz chaim said that the time had already passed(horav hadomeh lemalaach)

The girl(s) in those stories would have died anyway from being dragged by the animals; she wouldn’t bleed to death from skin level abrasions; there were no arteries involved.

It is definitely a lofty level to worry about tznius in the face of death. It’s only funny to someone who is very distant from yiras shomayim.

Yserb, these comments make me have a lot of kavanah when i say that Hashem is melamed Torah le’amo yisroel… When we act like Hashem’s people, we’re zocheh that He’ll teach us His Torah. Otherwise, people can study texts and books, and be very distant from Him, living in spiritual ruin while being able to rattle off pesukim and mishnayos. Min hasafeh el hachutz. No meaning, no internalization, no attempt at approaching the seforim as the revealed word of G-d.

I pity those who live in such darkness. On chanukah we remember those who lived the same way in Greece; they studied, and knew as much as the tzadikim in terms of volume, but they were misyavnim. They didn’t want to dedicate their hearts to Hashem. They wanted to think and do as they please, without listening to the chachamim.

@AvriaDeArah On that we will have to disagree. I know of few good women who agree with the more extreme ways in which tzniyus is sometimes taught. It’s not Torah, it’s not yiras Shomayim, it’s just scare tactics by lousy teachers who don’t know how to explain something in a way that makes it beautiful. I don’t know how much Gemara I would have learned if my Rebbeim would have focused on “Learn Torah or BURN IN GEHINNOM FOREVER!!” instead of instilling the geshmak and beauty of it.

I don’t know if there’s a connection between body acceptance and gender confusion. I don’t. But telling kids that they don’t have to starve themselves or work out like a Yivoni to be beautiful is something most Yeshivas and Bais Yaakovs teach.

You obviously don’t read posts before commenting.
I gave my “exposure” to the topic because the poster wasn’t willing to hear anyone with no exposure. It was a reference for the poster to know that even having that exposure did not make me agree with him.
Regarding the content, if you aren’t gonna read what I wrote, don’t comment on it. Such is the social graces of an online forum.

Peacho- I am not arguing with your claim that people are hurting. I am not arguing your claim that some educators need to find a new way to educate. But you are 100% wrong if you are claiming that halacha is disposable or optional. I can’t tell if you are saying that people don’t regard halacha, or if you are saying that people don’t have an obligation to regard halacha. Halacha is not out there as an option.
You are also naive/uninformed/mistaken if you are claiming that living out the fantasy of being a different gender helps anyone function, helps them feel less suicidal or solves any of their pain.
I’m guessing you yourself may be the one who feels that the community has done so much damage to some that anything they oppose is the right answer. It’s not so. Some people are just ignorant, some people are just jerks but the mission is to separate True Torah from the deviant self proclaimed servants.
I’m sorry for your pain, really am, but discarding halacha is not the answer.

Peacho- I would like to agree that we need to find a better way to instill self respect in kids/people. I’ve done what I could for my own kids but am at a loss on what we can do on a grand scale.
As an aside, I have found that liberal work environment to be so draining spiritually that I left my workplace for a much less liberal environment. Nobody bashes the others, they just don’t condone it.

syag, once a person disregards the torah’s hashkofah about tznius, or any other issue, and opens themselves up to foreign influence and to see what goyim have to say, they will ultimately throw away halachos which don’t comport with their newfound ideologies and opinions.

This is why we need to step up in-house college programs, and make sure teachers are genuinely frum. It’s also why we need to take a stronger stance against social media, which is infiltrating our homes and burning them up from the inside.

The discussion here has morphed into something embarrassing. Just a few notes:

1. The environment/culture is constantly changing. So is the reaction to it. Mental illness can easily be getting worse, without regard to the growth of the “industry” of therapists and medications.

2. The lay person often wants to appear more educated and knowledgeable than he/she really is. You may theorize why this is so. But we do observe it almost everywhere. The comments about where and when to use medications are laughable. None of the commenters here have the training, experience, and expertise to know anything about it. The casual remarks border on the comical.

3. Halacha is misused by many, with priorities that halacha accounts for being ignored, and chumros being considered mainstream halacha that is relevant to all. Our Chazal guide us to have a Rav that provides guidance. We should all have someone that can guide our Avodas Hashem so that we don’t treat minhagim and halachos in a manner that either underplays or overplays their true significance.

4. All halachos and mitzvos exist for our betterment. Ideally, we should be thrilled and proud of our adherence to every mitzvah and halacha. This includes tznius and many other things. Presenting them with a fire and brimstone approach is not true chinuch. It might be bullying, it might be control, but not chinuch. Ask our Gedolei Yisroel. Read up on how the master mechanchim and Gedolei Yisroel addressed the subject of chinuch. There is a groundswell of such seforim, many in English as well. There are even several role models that can be studied for how to abandon the fire and brimstone, and thereby actually bring our younger generation to a place where they love Hashem, His Torah, and mitzvos.

5. Mental illness really exists. It is ignorant to dismiss everything as bad middos. And there are conditions for which medication is the most important intervention. Yes, many feel stigma regarding medication. But medication gets a bad rap by those who know nothing about it. I leave diagnostics to the professionals, and the prescribing of medications to those trained to do so. Psychiatry has grown to be more focused on medication use, since the number of fields of trained professionals to conduct therapy has grown. We might debate whether there has been enough training, but that would be separate thread. Basically, running around and proclaiming that these meds are being overused, underused, or misused makes me think, “Pardon, your ignorance is showing”. The field of mental health has progressed greatly in many ways, and much more is understood than just a few decades ago. Like much else in life, it has fallen under influences of culture, where ideologies that are foreign have affected judgment. For the most part, the majority of issues facing the mental health field have little to no relevance to the woke culture, and remain mostly scientific. And I leave the rest to the experts. I fail to see any of the above comments reflecting expertise.

added – not disregarding your points, just your presentation