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Does anyone know anthing about top bais medrashes in america like fallsburg and rav mottel’s compared to a place like passaic or patterson in terms of mehalech in learning/seder hayom/number of bochurim they send to Brisk etc.)
Also, does anyone know the name of the yeshivish camp in vermont?
its call the troller yeshiva
Is 614 a typo?
Beis medrashes???
I am impressed with the degree of foolishness exposed in the OP. What energizes the audacity to determine the quality of a yeshiva? For one talmid, the so-called “best” yeshiva would be a disaster. For another talmid, the “worst” could be producing a Gadol Hador. Is the number of boys that enter Brisk the yardstick?
It’s one thing to explore the characteristics of a yeshiva. It’s another thing to rate them. That smacks of holier than thou, and this is not consistent with Torah value.
“I am impressed with the degree of foolishness exposed in the OP” , so why not realize this is just a bored troll?
The number of talmidim who go to brisk is a good yardstick to determine a few thing, including how integrated the yeshiva is in the core yeshiva world, if they allow college, what kind of guys go there, etc…
It’s not holier than thou. My Yeshiva doesn’t send anyone to brisk (there have been a couple of exceptions) but it’s still a great place with accommodations for very yeshivishe bochurim.Like Harvard is the top academics in the university, Brisk is the tops in learning. There are schools throughout the world that pride themselves in helping students get into the top Universities, to get accreditation. Similarly in the Olam Hayeshivos, if their bochurim are getting into Brisk, they can be recognized in preparing their students to get into the top yeshiva. It doesn’t mean that Brisk is the best for everyone nor is the top university the best for everyone. There are people who excel in Yeshivas that you never heard of. The standard of learning among yeshivas is highest in Brisk.
1 – brisk doesn’t have its own standard. You don’t have to be a top bochur to get in; you have to come from a Yeshiva which is alloted a certain amount of slots and have a recommendation from the rosh Yeshiva thereof. There are guys in brisk who aren’t very into learning, don’t keep sedorim, etc .. The vast majority are big bnei torah, but there’s not much hashgocha there. You make your own goals, standards, and choose who you associate with.
The top guys in brisk aren’t any better than the top mir talmidim.
Lipton Ice tea, now that Brisk
The Brisk Myth
The assumption by the OP and some commenters is that Brisk is the top yeshiva. By deductive reasoning, one should expect our Gedolei Yisroel to have Brisk on their resumes. Sad to disappoint, but they do not. Now, this is not a put down for Brisk. It has a reputation, not because it produces the most superior products, but because it is one of the most selective. If it’s hard to get admitted, it must be top. The same logic is the doctor who only takes appointments months in advance. If it’s that hard to get an appointment, it must be a better doctor. Well, that’s a myth.
Brisk follows a derech of learning that is great for some and not so for others. Rav Chaim ZT”L was Sar Hatorah. He was as capable as anyone to learn with depth. But that was not his derech. And his learning was not inferior. It would be pretty audacious to minimize his Torah learning since he neither attended Brisk nor did he use their derech.
If we refrain from this form of “identity politics”, we might avoid serious pitfalls.
Tlik – while it’s true that many gedolim did not learn in brisk, a large amount – perhaps the majority – of gedolei roshei yeshiva in America did, and are talmidim of either rav berel, rav avrohom yehoshua, or rav dovid. After rav avrohom yehoshua’s machlokes with rav shach, the majority of eretz yisroel based yeshivos distanced themselves from brisk. The American yeshiva world never took sides in that disagreement.
Avira, what did Rav Shach and Rav Avrohom Yehoshua disagree about?
ujm, it was not a pleasant chapter in yeshiva history. Rav Shach paskened that frumer yidden can join the government and take money therefrom. Previously, the frum parties (not including mizrachi, and Im not sure if shas was around yet) under the psak of the chazon ish, held that we were only allowed to be in the opposition, but not in the government itself. Rav Shach said that under Menachem Begin things were different and that the psak no longer applied. He also said that due to these changes, we were allowed to take money for yeshivos until 50% funding for a school.
Rav avrohom yehoshua was very upset at this, and said that his grandfather never would have allowed it. Even though rav shach was about 80 years old and rav avrohom yehoshua was in his 30’s, the former believed he was justified in opposing rav shach not on his own stature, but as a defender of the brisker rov.
This led to a major rift which continues to this day; briskers don’t get jobs in ponevezh.
Basically all of the torah in the litvishe world in eretz yisroel can be traced to either the chazon ish, brisker rov, or rav chaim shmulevitz/rav laizer yudel finkel.
Now thats Brisk baby!
Avira > briskers don’t get jobs in ponevezh.
Avira, it makes sense that if you do not want to accept government money, you should not be paid by the organization that does. You can’t complain if you separate yourself for the tzibur. Do you know what is the current status of Rav Schach’s view that government money should be used only in part? Is that part now same as it was or different (I presume you would need to count all indirect streams of funds to kollel members in that, not just direct yeshiva funding, given complexity of Israeli politics)
Avira: Is it really true that “a large amount – perhaps the majority – of gedolei roshei yeshiva in America… are talmidim of Brisk? Even if they learned there for a year or two but spent the overwhelming majority of their development in American Yeshivos can we still call them Brisk products?
Also, keep in mind the question of cause and effect. Even if it is true as you say it does not give us a definitive answer that they are the gedolei RY BEACUSE they learned in Brisk. It is always very possible that Brisk attracted the best minds but not that they achieved greatness due to their time in Brisk
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