“The telz roshei yeshiva changed drastically shortly after the founding of the state. Rav gifter was very anti zionist, and said that his rebbeim had changed their shitos – originally they celebrated yom haatzamaut, but it did not last long.”
Do you know for sure that he changed. Do you have a recording of Rav Gifter saying that Rav Elya Meir became anti-Zionist. Rav Elya Meir Bloch’s letter states black and white that he was pro the state of Israel. Hearsay doesn’t compare to a clear letter.
“Most of the rabbonim you quoted (besides rabbi yoshe ber, his brother rabbi aharon, and aharon Lichtenstein) did not believe in zionism – reb yaakov said that reading vayoel moshe had changed his perspective on zionism, for starters. But those who did show a certain amount of positivity were motivated by non-nationalistic kdeas. They felt it was a hatzolah after the Holocaust, that there was a safe place for jews (well, it wasn’t really safe, but that was the propaganda).”
I agree that that most of these Rabbonim didn’t want a state for nationalistic reasons. Their reasons for a state were very different than secular zionists. They felt it was a Hatzalah for the Jewish people after the Holacaust, which it certainly was. Over two hundred thousand Jews had no place to call home after going through the horrors of the Holacaust. If not for Israel they would have been stuck in the filthy conditions of the DP camps; unable to rebuild their lives. Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky also considered it good because it restored Jewish pride after the Holacaust. One can just imagine how much despair was felt, and how much hope and pride the Jewish people felt about having a state. Another Maaylah which was expressed by many Gedolim was simply the fact that through the state, millions of Jews returned to Eretz Yisroel, where we belong. Under Palestinian control, it would have been unimaginable for so many Jews to be allowed to live in Eretz Yisroel.
Regardless of their reason, they felt that having a state was a very positive thing, and was a present from Hashem. They did not feel that having a state was an anathema to Halacha, as someone wrote before.
Where is it quoted that Rav Yaakov was Chozer. The footnote of Emes Liyaakov, written by a close family member of Rav Yaakov, says that he would often express this idea. I would think he would know if he was Chozer.
Many of the Gedolim quoted viewed it as possibly part of Geulah. Rav Dessler writes that it’s difficult to call it “Aschalta Digeulah” (though he calls it a big Chesed), not totally outlying the possibility”. There is first hand account of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank calling the state “Aschalta “Digeulah”. Before the state was established, Rav Isser Zalman said, that having a state would be “Aschalta Digeulah.
“Rav Shra Feivel mendelowitz had said that he didn’t know for certain, but that he thought the state might be linked to the geulah – he said he’d wait to see what the gedolei hador say.”
Regarding Rav Shraga Feivel, a few days after he gave his talk in Torah Vidaas, about the state likely being part of the Geulah, the Satmar Rebbe yelled at Rav Shraga Feivel for his “Zionist” views. Rav Shraga Feivel later told his Talmidim that he could have answered him Chazal for Chazal, but he didn’t want to face his wrath, since he’s a Tzadik, and has a fiery temper. He told his Talmidim that if he was their age, he would go to Eretz Yisroel, and fight in the war of independence (Last chapter in Artscroll biography).
“Your post has many “proofs” from footnotes and artscroll books – talk to talmidim themselves, you’ll get a much clearer picture. I know about reb yaakov’s views because my rebbeim were talmidim of his; i really don’t care what “they” wrote about him”
Yonason Rosenblum, does a lot of research for his books. He talks to Talmidim who knew the Gedolim personally. His book on Rav Shraga Feivel is full of first hand accounts by Rav Nesanel Quin, a very close Talmid, and Chasuv Rav, as well as other students. The footnote of Emes Liyyakov was written by Rav Yaakov’s close family.
“It’s funny how you save the biggest names; the chazon ish and the brisker rov, as an afterthought – they were the gedolei hagedolim, the ones everyone else turned to. Rav desler, the ponevezer rov, the tzitz eliezer, would defer to them in a heartbeat. They don’t deserve to be a “yesh omrim”.”
I’m not sure that we can rank Gedolim, saying who was greater. The Chazon Ish and The Brisker Rav were Gedolei Olam, as were the Ponivitzer Rav, Rav Isser Zalman, and the other names quoted.
I don’t feel comfortable saying with certainty who was greater. It’s true that many of the Gedolim I mentioned would often defer to The Chazon Ish. In regards to their Hashkafah to the state, though they didn’t. If anything, this shows how strong their positive views on the state were.
It seems to me that the views of the Brisker Rav, Chazon Ish, Steipler, etc. were a minority. The other Gedolim would strongly criticize the secular nature of the state, but I don’t think they felt that the state was inherently a bad thing. Very rarely do you find the Agudah Gedolim bringing up the Shalosh Shevuos. The Steipler was an exception. Their criticism was mostly directed on the secularity of the state, not negativity about a state at all. I think it is also possible that the Chazon Ish and Brisker Rav would have changed their mind. They lived in the beginning of the state, when the founders were the “Shpitz” secular Zionists, who wanted a state to replace Torah. The future of Torah in the state seemed bleek. Only 400 Yeshivah students received an exemption from army service; it looked like religious Jews were a dying breed R”L. Even as more Torah spread in the state, it seemed like the anti-religious would uproot every segment of religion R”L. There was the terrible incident with Yemen, as well as other fiascos. Bichasdei Hashem, the nature of the state improved tremendously since then. There are B”H many more Yeshivos and Bnei Torah in the state of Israel than the Chazon Ish would have ever imagined. Many of them are even financed by the secular goverment themselves. Religious Jews in EY are nearing a majority. There is a big Kiruv movement in Ey, with Aish and Ohr Samayach receiving many students B”H. The old secular Zionist philosophy is almost in the wastebin. The only Real Zionists are the Dati Liumi/Chardal. Neither the Chazon Ish nor Brisker Rav could have ever predicted this. The Chazon Ish, in fact, assumed that the state would C”V crumble after just a few years.
” You also omitted dozens of gedolei hador who were vocally opposed, including rav shimon shkop, rav boruch ber, rav chaim ozer, rav chaim brisker, the munkatcher rebbe, satmar rov, lubavitcher rebbes until the last one, the steipler, rav yosef chaim zonnenfeld, rav hirsch, the rogotchover gaon, rav dushinsky…off the top of my head. I can provide many more and sources for each if necessary.”
I purposely ommited the Gedolim who lived before the Holacaust because the Holacaust made many people rethink their stance. Almost everyone agrees that before the war most Gedolim were against a state, some because of Shalosh Shevuos, but most because they felt there was no need, and they didn’t want a secular state. After the Holacaust, however, many reconsidered.Rav Yoshe Ber only allowed himself to become Zionist, against the Brisker Hashkafah, because he assumed that Rav Chayim himself would have changed his Hashkafah after the Holacaust. The need for a home for all the refugees, a need for Jewish pride, the need for a safe haven after such unspeakable horrors, as well as other factors, changed the mind of many Gedolei Yisroel. The Klausenberger Rebbe, a ferment anti-Zionist changed his Shitah after rebuilding his life in Eretz Yisroel. Agudas Yisroel which had previously been anti-Zionist, became Non-Zionist and mostly did not oppose the founding of Israel. They agreed to Ben-Gurion’s status quo and did not try to convince the UN otherwise. Rav Aharon Lopiansky, (Time pieces) adressing Aguda’s post-Holacaust stance, writes that they feel that it is unclear whether The state is good or bad. They can not call say Hallel on YH, when there is so much secularity in the state, but they can not say Kinnos either, when there is so much good. That piece was complimented by Rav Reuven Grovsky. Rav Lopiansky has stated numerous times, that the Hashkafah, his Rebbe, Rav Chaim Shmulevitz, of his father-in-law (previous RY of Mir), and the Mir as a whole was non-Zionist, not anti-Zionist. This is a far-cry from the Agudah’s previos stance. I therefore did not think it was fair to bring views of Gedolim from before the war. (I also ommited views of the Gedolim who supported it who died before the war, such as Rav Kook, Rav Teichtal, and possibly the Netziv, and Rav Meir Simchah).
There were Gedolim after the war who were opposed, whom i didn’t mention. There were also, however, many who were not opposed whom i didn’t mention. Rav Pam, for example seems to have viewed it positively. Rav Moshe seems to not have been concerned with the Shalosh Shevuos. Rav Baruch Sorotzkin assumed that the Satmar Rebbe was a Daas Yochid, and many other Gedolim were more neutral.
Also, as someone mentioned before, much of the pre-war opposition to the state, came not to having a state, but to associating yourself with secular movement which opposed religion. There was a huge danger that reading Zionist material and associating oneself with it’s leaders, would make someone not Frum. None of that danger exists in thanking Hashem for giving us a state, and viewing it’s existence positively.
“Rav ovadia was misled by menachem kasher’s forgeries in his teshuva permitting (not requiring) halel on YH. Many of the signatures on kasher’s placard were from rabbonim who had already been niftar. Rav ovadia was not at fault; he was tricked – this happens sometimes even to very big people.”
Rav Ovadya was misled by the forgeries to call it “Aschalta Digeulah”; that’s true. His being pro-the state has nothing to do with Rav Menachem Kasher though. He writes in his Teshuvah, how he can’t hide from the great things which have happened as a result of the state of Israel. He is making his own observations, not simply quoting Rav Menachem Kasher. In his Teshuvos about this topic he makes mention of Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, Rav Herzog, Rav Kook, Rav Meshulem Roth, Rav Zevin, and other Gedolim who for sure were Zionist. This has nothing to do with Rav Menachem Kasher.
“I don’t believe that rav aharon called rabbi herzog the “sar hatorah”.”
i remember hearing that he did, but i don’t have a source offhand. Regardless, he certainly was Machshiv him tremendously, and he asked to speak at his Levayah, in which he spoke very highly of Rav Herzog. Rav Shlomo Hoffman asked Rav Aharon about Rav Herzog, as to which Rav Aharon responded that he knows him personally and can testify that he certainly classifies as a Talmid Chochom. Rav Herzog was also very close to Rav Dessler, and spoke in Ponivitze by his Levayah.