Prominent dati leumi posek Rabbi Shlomo HaKohen Aviner Shlita addressed a statistic reporting 40% of chareidim do not work. The rav stated that due to the economic realities in Israel today, an avreich must learn a profession that permits him to support his family. “A talmid yeshiva cannot remain in yeshiva indefinitely. He must earn a living and it is not enough to say ‘Hashem will take care of things and it will be fine’”.
He told talmidim during a shiur that there are avreichim who go to soup kitchens daily and in some chareidi homes children regularly go hungry and that is why a husband must be able to earn a living. A talmid can learn for a number of years as everyone must, but at some point, one must reflect and determine if one will be a rav or rebbe and if not, it is time to look for work. The rav added that not everyone is suited to be a rav or rebbe, while most believe they are, and while one may be a talmid chacham there is the issue of earning a livelihood. Batei medrashim are bursting with talmidei chacham that do not have work because all of the jobs are taken.
The rav then addressed avreichim who used to make do with the bare minimum. “Once upon a time, man sleep on straw like Rabbi Akiva and this was fine but today, it is not possible to live like this. We may sleep on straw but how will one pay tuition for one’s children? One does not have to eat Prili (type of fruit yogurt) daily but even after austerity there is a need for find money to pay of different necessities and we cannot change reality with pilpul. Perhaps in Vietnam one can be an avreich but in Israel it is impossible.”
(YWN – Israel Desk, Jerusalem)
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22 Responses
I completely agree with this rav.
The problem is the chareidim who do not work do not follow this Rav’s words
until the leaders of the chareidi community start saying the same thing, these words will fall on deaf ears.
so let them work without going to the army
Finally someone has the seiches and courage to say what needs to be said!
If you define being part of an academic community as being “unemployed”, then the numbers are similar to what you will find in any “college town” such as Cambridge, Oxford, or any other community in which academic institutions are a major source of employment. For centuries, the main reason to live in Eretz Yisrael was to learn Torah, and not surprising, a very high percentage of Jewish wishing to learn Torah end up moving to Israel since that is where the world’s leading concentration of yeshivos are found.
If we apply American definitions of “employment”, then unemployment among hareidim is quite rare. To discover the true unemployment rate, count the number of hareidim who are wandering the streets all day with nothing to do since they aren’t in yeshiva or working for some other sort of job.
what you will find in any “college town” such as Cambridge, Oxford, or any other community in which academic institutions are a major source of employment.
ALSO check the ages of the “college town” employees?
Without getting into a discussion about Rabbi Aviner’s qualifications, please realize that he holds just about zero standing in the chareidi world in E.Y. Regardless of the validity or not of his proclamation, why bother even metioning him on a frum, yeshivishe website?
“For centuries, the main reason to live in Eretz Yisrael was to learn Torah”
That is not accurate. Jews in Eretz Yisrael worked in similar occupations as did the Muslims and Christians until the arrival of some Ashkenazic Jews in the 19th century who retained their Ashkenazic identity and Yiddish language. 16th century Ottoman census records show Jews as having been in the oil, detergent, and textile business.
Forget terminology. If a man doesn’t
Work and his kids go hungry.
That is bad. He has ti try to get work. Far better to get a skill so he can support his family and learn when he is not working. It’s called be a learner
Earner. The family eats tuition us paid etc. And he learns.
nobody will listen to him because hes not a mainstream rosh yeshiva hes for the kipah serugah crowd
and none of the mainstream rosh yeshivas would dare utter such kefirah!!!!!!
but of course he is saying what is true and what was practiced throughout europe
I’ve been in college towns. Academic employment, from the little undergraduates who still get money from mom and dad (the equivalent of single yeshiva students), to the fanciest professors (the equivalent of rosh yevhios) are all part of the economy. In American none of them are considered unemployed. In Israel, all of them are considered unemployed. They are a high percentage of the adult population of a “college town”, or of the hareidim community in Israel. While there are always others, as there are in Israel and always have been, in a city whose focuse is academics a large percentage of the population are connected with academic activities. Such communities, be they places such as Ithaca (home of Cornell) or Bnei Brak, rely on transfer payments (donations and tuition).
Eretz Yisrael has always been the focal point for learning. Of course there were, and are, non-scholars in the community – but from a frum perspective, the economic engine is the scholarship industry. Money comes in (tuition, purchases of books, charitable contributions, etc.). Measured by such metrics as number of scholars or books being published the “yeshiva” industry in Eretz Yisrael is thriving.
The attacks on it, such as in the main article, must be understood as not based on economics but on politics, and reflect the author’s ideological rejection of Torah learning, and perhaps his jealousy that his community has been unable to produce so successful a product (because bluntly, secular Jews outside of Israel couldn’t care a hoot about learning Torah or anything else Jewish).
Maybe he can convince the Israeli Government to stop their shmad and allow the chareidim to work without first having to sacrifice their faith at the altar of the IDF.
#6 said—.. “why bother even metioning him on a frum, yeshivishe website?”
Indeed. Why bother to listen to a rav with seichel and who is compassionate. Stick to your own leaders then, who refuse to let you go to work to remain in perpetual snorrerdom. This way they can control every inch of your lives in fear that you may one day leave them.
Interesting as many Chareidi Gedoim hold the same way.
In fact amongst many Chassidim (Satmar in particular) Kollel is discouraged for the majority of individuals.
What is opposed by all Chareidi Gedolim the average Yiddishe person serving in the Army.
Since the Isreali government makes it illegal for someone to work if they haven’t joined the Army it is impossible for may Chareidim to find decent jobs.
First settlers of Eretz Yisroel were the Sefardim who worked in fields of silversmiths, tailors, tefillin makers, sofrim, spice dealers, etc.
Rav Aviner is not speaking to the Charedi kehillos he is speaking to his own kehilla where there are many lomdei torah (surprise!), avreichim (surprise!), kollel talmidim (surprise!). He is so NON-POLITIC that it doesn’t even register on his radar.
As rosh yeshiva of Ateret Cohanim where the majority of the talmidim are learning full-time, he is addressing them not others!
#10 get a life. Its against Torah to just rely on charity. True Hessed would be allowing and helping Jews get employment. That is the highest form of charity. Check the Halachot.
Akuperma – you forgot one huge distinction and that is that students are in universities for a defined period of time – generally till they obtain their degree, unlike the current open ended yeshiva system that requires support until 120.
#16 – I’ve known people who enter university at age 17 and stay until they retire at the end of their careers. You start out as a tuition paying freshman (bachur), then you end up as a graduate student pursuing your own studies while helping teacher (kollel), and eventually you make it as professor (magid shiur) or perhaps end up as a chairman or a dean (rosh yeshiva). Maybe you branch out to work as a librarian, or in fund raising, or some other support role. If you are really clever, you find a way to set up a business that feeds off the system (I know someone who got bored of graduate school, sent up one of the first copy shops, and ended up a millionaire, all while remaining part of the campus community).
A simple change in definition, and hareidi unemployment in Israel goes from “widespread” to “rare.” And remember that Israel is to Torah scholars what places like Cambridge (in both England and Massachusetts) are to secular scholars. For much of history the major source of parnassah in Israel was derived from scholars coming there from all over the world and spending money raised abroad to support scholarships, and like any college town, those best off were probably the businesses that grew up around selling things to the scholars.
If going to Harvard and studying humanities (lets say, ancient and medieval Jewish literature) is parasitism, then I guess you assume learning Torah is as well. In fact, most countries subsidize scholars studying their own culture’s humanities not because it produces new discoveries or better weapons, but because these studies are a key part of one’s self-identification. Unless you are an anti-semitic bigot, Torah scholarship is no more or less useful than all the humanities studies in academic institutions around the planet.
Like it or not, Torah has always been pivotal to the Yishuv.
How refreshing to hear some sensible opinions finally. They should also serve in the IDF or another approved program and protect our Eretz Hakedosha!
#11- As harav Aviner served in the IDF himself, as did the other rabbanim in his yeshiva, and as he teaches his talmidim to do the same – which they do – it is unlikely that you will be able to convince him that service in the IDF is ‘shmad’.
empty-kup said:
“I’ve known people who enter university at age 17 and stay until they retire at the end of their careers. You start out as a tuition paying freshman (bachur), then you end up as a graduate student pursuing your own studies while helping teacher (kollel), and eventually you make it as professor (magid shiur) or perhaps end up as a chairman or a dean (rosh yeshiva).”
You are being disingenuous if you think there is a comparison to those who pay tuition and end their academic careers usually in 4 years to those who feel they can learn on the public dole indefinitely.
Rather few are pushed in university to stay in that system without a plan.
Akuperma- From your second post – “(because bluntly, secular Jews outside of Israel couldn’t care a hoot about learning Torah or anything)” – describes you perfectly!
Clearly, YOU do not give a hoot about learning Torah either. You post here ALL. DAY. LONG.
@ akuperma
Have to disagree with you on this one, akuperma.
The only people working at or connected with a university who could be compared at a certain level, lehavdil, with full-time learners, would be the teaching staff. They are employed by the university primarily for the purpose of research and for publishing academic books and papers, and lecture students for a few hours as well. All in all, they are immersed in academic endeavors full-time for most of their adult lives.
Compared to the population of the university town – unless the town is very tiny – their relative number is very small. (The city of Oxford, for example has a population of over 150,000 – a tiny few of whom will be full-time, long-term academics).
The student body cannot really be considered to be ‘learners’ in any sense, one of the reasons being that students are only studying temporarily. Even in Europe where it takes many years of full time study to gain a Masters degree (normally 4 or 5 years depending on the subject and the institution; 6 or 7 years for medicine and some other subjects), a person has normally graduated and is in paid professional work by their mid to late twenties.
There is no mass culture of people learning beyond their instead of being employed. Even within the academic world, only the elite students (maybe the top 5 % or so) will qualify for scholarships or financial assistance to enable them to continue their studies for longer than average(PhD candidates who want to research their thesis for longer than the standard 3 years, for example).
There are of course many types of support staff and others working in connection with a university, and that does affect the economy to a certain extent, but many if not most of these people are employed by private companies, not the university. There is no ‘culture of scholarships’ because scholarships are few and far between.