“We have first hand accounta of the chofetz chaim literally making fun of rabbi kook’s name when he made his twisted statements about soccer playing mechalelei shabbos being “holy””.
That story is quoted in “The empty wagon”. Nevertheless, it is refuted by many people including Gil Student on Torah Musings. It seems very unlikely; being that there are many stories which show how much The Chafatz Chaim was Machshiv Rav Kook. There is, for example, the famous story of how in 1923, by the first Agudah Meeting, one of the speakers made fun of Rav Kook. The Chafatz Chaim got very upset, and screamed “How dare he make fun of The Rabbi of Yerushaliyim”. The Chafatz Chaim’s son-in-law, in fact, wrote a long letter in 1928, defending Rav Kook, and writing about his greatness. He writes in the letter, that The Chafatz Chaim, his father-in-law feels highly about Rav Kook, but didn’t want to publicly protest so as not to give the extremists publicity. He ends off by writing about how terrible it is to make fun of Tamidei Chachamim, and that people who make fun of Rav Kook should be banned. It would be extremely suprising for The Chafatz Chaim to mock so strongly someone who he was Machshiv so much.
“He eschewed eating meat in clear, open violation of the gemara in Nazir which calls a lerson who abstains from devorim mutarin as a sinner, from “asher chatah al hanefesh””.
I’m pretty sure that Rav Kook has a piece in which he discusses why it’s not good to be a vegetarian.
“He based his idea of odom harishon on kiekeergard”.
“Chochma Bagoyim Taamin”. He felt that outside knowledge can help us with our understanding of Torah if we’re able to take out the good . That was his Shitah. Just like the Rambam and Ramah were willing to quote Aristotle.
“He had no problem attending operas”
The story about Rav Yoshe Ber going to the opera, if true, was when he was in Berlin. He never recommended going to operas later in life. In fact “The Rav Thinking out Loud” quotes Rav Yoshe Ber as saying that we can’t rely on any of the common Heterim for Kol Isah.
“And did nothing to chastise his waywars community.”
He was very critical of certain things in Modern Orthodoxy and he let it be known. He would also publicly criticize certain decisions of Mizrachi.
“Your quotes about the state being aschalta degeula come from menachem kasher, who forged signatures, some from rabonim who had already been niftar. Rav ovadia believed those quotes in his teshuva regarding saying halel on 5 iyar.”
The quotes from Rav T.P. Frank and Rav I.Z. Meltzer are not from Rav Menachem Kasher. Rav T.P. Frank is quoted as telling people that The State of Israel is a Yeshua Gedolah for Bnei Yisroel, and Aschalta Digeulah. Rav Herzog in his Hesped for Rav Isser Zalman said that Rav Isser Zalman told him that The State of Israel is Aschal;ta Digela.” Rav Reuven Katz, a close Talmid of Rav Isser Zalman quoted Rav I.Z. as being extremely happy about The Founding of The State of Israel even with all it’s deficiencies. (look in Chakirah magazine volume 23). It is true that Rav Ovadya seems to be basing his Teshuvah off of Rav Menachem Kasher, but I think it is very likely that he would have viewed Israel positively even without it. He was Machshiv Rav Herzog very much, and even got a Haskamah from him, and Rav Herzog was a Zionist. He was also close to Rav T.P. Frank. Many other Gedolim viewed the state positively, though, even if not calling it Aschalta digeulah. The Tzitz Eliezer, for example, writes in the Hakdamah to his Sefer, Hilchos Medinah, about Hashem’s Chesed in allowing us to be free in our land.
“Rabbi yoshe ber’s own observance, as rabbi kook’s, was not wavering. They kept halacha (minus the operas, kol ishah is assur), but diverged from the mesorah in dangerous ways that their talmidim only expanded on and completely left normative judaism.”
Just because Rav Yoshe Ber had different Hashkafos does not mean he diverged Mesorah in dangrous ways. The main ways in which his Hashkafos differeded were in his openness to secular studies and Zionism things in which had been debated in Yiddishkeit for years. He followed much of The Brisker Mesorah. His learning and Minhagim were based of Rav Chaim. Their Tamidim, for the most part, were Chashuv people who did not leave mainstream Orthodoxy. Rav Schachter, Rav Willig, Rav Miesleman, Rav Shurkin, and many other students of his are very Chashuv people. There are some people or Rabbis connected to Modern Otherdoxy who are unfortunately doing things against Halacha, but they weren’t Talmidim of his and don’t really understand his Hashkafah. There may have been Rabbis who took his Hashkafos in the wrong way, but unfortunately that is the case with many Rabbonim, and even with a Tanna as brought in the post. The same can be said about Rav Kook.
“The issue isn’t secular knowledge. That’s a strawman argument. The rishonim who were knowledgeable (most, I’d argue all were) were not influenced by non jewish philosophy any more than they were influenced by Christianity or Islam, though many knew those systems in order to refute them.”
Many of the Gedolim did use non-Jewish sources to help understand and clarify Jewish concepts. Obviously, they didn’t follow the Non-Jewish sources blindly, but they thought about the concepts, and they used whatever they felt could help explain Torah, and rejected what was foreign to Yiddishkeit. i think the same is true about Rav Yoshe Be. I don’t think he introduced alien concepts to Torah. He took out from secular subjects which he felt were useful for explaining Torah.
“If Rav Yaakov knew what we knew about rabbi kook, i highly doubt he would have referred to him as such, but to many he was respected. He was a shem dovor, but was known to some as off”.
I assume Rav Yaakov knew about the controversy surrounding Rav Kook. It wasn’t a secret. i don’t know exactly how much. Rav Yaakov was far from the only Gadol was was Machshiv Rav Kook, though, as brought in the post. Many Chareide Gedolim like Rav Shlomo Zalman, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Ovadya, Rav Isser Zalman, Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank and Rav Hutner were (Rav Hutner later on rejected much of his Hashkafah but was still Machshiv him) . Rav Nissin Alpert, a close Talmid of Rav Moshe gave a Hesped on his 50th Yahrseit. Many of the Gedolim (such as Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, and Rav Isser Zalman) knew him very well and knew his Hashkafah. They didn’t agree fully with his Hashkafah, but they were Machshiv him tremendously. I don’t think it’s fair to assume that we know better now, and we can make fun of a person who was held in such high regard by most of the Gedolei Yisroel. People assume that the Chazon Ish wasn’t Machshiv Rav Kook, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. He argued very strongly with his Hashkafah, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t Machshiv him as an Adam Gadol. it seems like he told people not to read Rav Kook’s Hashkafah Seforim, but it is also quoted that he told people to learn Rav Kook’s Sheilos Uteshuvah Seforim to get a feel for Psak. Also, it should be noted that in the end of his life, he had a close relationship with Rav Tzvi Yehuda Kook, Rav Kook’s son.
“When rav miller said that, was he completely aware of the above? Or was he only aware of zionism and simply believing in a state?”
Here is the exact quote.
Q: “Can the Rav share with us his opinion regarding Rav Kook?
A:
Rav Kook was certainly a frum Jew – only here we come to the mixing of the boundaries.
The boundaries were overstepped. Rav Kook made a very big mistake because he prepared the way for the worse ones to come. Now, it took some time before the worst ones appeared on the scene, but the worst ones couldn’t have come if the good one hadn’t prepared the way.
In those days there was no opportunity for the Va’ad Le’umi – that’s the National Council – to gain any control over religious affairs, because they were irreligious Jews. But money they had. So they were able to organize a religious council. But they needed some authority that would sanction – that would give them an entrance into Jewish religious affairs. Rabbi Kook, and I’m going to tell you now, maybe it was never published before but I heard it firsthand from the last Telzer Rav z”l – that’s the older brother of Rav Elya Meir z”l, and this happened in Lithuania. He told the following to us. He said that Rav Kook was a poetic soul, a man who became interested and excited over ideals. But he wasn’t always practical. He didn’t understand things in a practical way and therefore he undertook a new plan of action whereby he hoped that through his idealism, he would lead the pious Jews into the camp of the irreligious and they would occupy all the places. But the end was that the irreligious took his prestige and used it to occupy all the places in the Orthodox camp and that’s why today we have an entirely different picture. Eretz Yisroel up till a certain time was all Orthodox and the irreligious were all outsiders. They were pounding on the gates with bags full of money but they couldn’t get in. Rav Kook, in his innocence, in his temimus, he opened up the door for them. At first it wasn’t a flood – because who came after him? Rav Herzog was also an erlicher yid and a talmid chochom. And even Rav Unterman was an old- time Rav. But little by little – it’s like the old Rav Zonnenfeld said – the first Chief Rabbi will be a Kohen. That was Rav Kook. The second, a Levi, Rav Herzog. And the third, a Yisroel. The fourth – I don’t know what he’s going to be. And so I want to be very careful with the kavod of Rav Kook because there’s no question – and even Rav Herzog was an erlicher yid. But there’s no question also that these people made an error because all the gedolei yisroel disapproved – the vast majority – of this step. And what they did was to open the doors.”