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So now that the policy makers have been forced by growing public discontent to finally start following the science and relax and ultimately rescind the unscientific mask mandates, vaccine mandates and other forms of power grabs and population control; ahem ahem:
Will the mask mitzva cult be able to take off their masks?
Stop demanding more vaccines? Heaven forfend….venture outdoors (which irony of ironies is multifold times safer than indoors…)?Or is not being told what to do and having a government approved guarantee of safety ( provided that you do x.y.z ) going to be too difficult to handle and it’s never leave your house from here on in?
Kinda like the egel worshippers. כי זה משה האיש, אשר הלך לפנינו לא ידענו מה היה לו. And therefore we need someone to קום עשה לנו אלהים אשר ילכו לפנינו. Wo a leader to guide us in every step we are stuck. We can’t move. Let’s just stay indoors.
Indeed, the first statement of Hashem to klal Yisroel is אנכי ה אלוקיך Asher davka הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים מבית עבדים.
חירות על הלוחות.
The Ultimate goal of the Torah is for us to be completely free of external rulers be they Men who promise us safety and security in order to rule over us (זכרנו את הדגה אדר אכלנו במצרים חינם) or the יצר הרע that promises us happiness from trinkets that can only provide temporary distractions. See מסילת ישרים re והנפש לא תמלא. Moshol of the עירוני אחד שנשא בת מלך.
מה הוא אף אתה.
And the most basic philosophical description of the Ribbon shel olam is that He is Independent or First Cause and it is that Independence and knowledge thereof, that he wishes for us to make our own.
אמרתי אלהים אתם ובני עליון כולכם.
But sometines we have a hard time giving up our dependancy on. אלהים אחרים. Elohim that are אחרים to those who follow them.
Hopefully the world is coming back to it’s senses and will admit the mistakes of these past 2 years so we don’t repeat them. Bc there is no question that the enslavers have a bigger and better deception coming around the corner.
“finally start following the science and relax and ultimately rescind the unscientific mask mandates, vaccine mandates”
are you for real?
most doctors, who know science a little more than you do, say that masks save lives. since that is a fact, it’s plain pikuach nefesh to wear a mask to prevent giving the virus to someone near you, with that person possibly dying of covid. 900,000 americans died of covid, and you have your ridiculous arguments? get a life !Aside from putting on a mask in certain situations, the vast majority of yidden have been going about their business the past several months reasonably close to normal. We daven inside, eat at restaurants (sometimes flashing a V card), making T-times for golf with friends and going on airplanes w/masks on and off to business meetings and vactions. Yes, there are still some residual restrictions but those are being removed relatively quickly.
We didn’t “hide in our homes” even during the peak of the pandemic, we didn’t feel “enslaved” 2 years ago and B’H with the vaccines and common sense protocols, we are all healthy now.
Your nonsensical rhetoric is a lot of hyperbole. Go out and enjoy life and stop looking for strawmen about which to cry gevalt!!masks dont help period.
the doctors that support it are simply overly political.
stop hiding behind your lame excuses of masks
would you rather simply be alive or really live your life?
life without risks is barely life at allharavphi – wearing mask is living without risks? besides the fact that your living your life while you give your neighbor the covid, and probably death, i got a suggestion. wear a mask and see if anyone will stop you from jumping off a bridge, or walk on coals, or stop a truck……
“would you rather simply be alive or really live your life?”
My life didn’t really decrease in enjoyment when I wore a mask when venturing out. Honestly, this whole hatred of masks thing is something I never really understood. What is the big deal of putting on a mask when going into crowded spaces? Are people really so childish that they need to resist any direction from authority figures and experts?
BY1212
How does your “Science” explain the fact that New Zealand has only 53 Covid deaths to date???
Hopefully you will come back to your senses and will admit the mistakes of these past 2 years so you don’t repeat them and lead to more unnecessary and avoidable deaths chas veshalom.
“Are people really so childish that they need to resist any direction from authority figures and experts?”
This is the problem. This question gets asked over and over and answered repeatedly that many have been getting this information from doctors and experts but then it goes in one ear and out the other. Whats childish (at best) is people who can’t bring themselves to accept that there are different professional opinions, that it isn’t about defiance, and that your opinion may not be the only one out there. So you end up with these dumb comments asking as if they have never actually heard anyone but fauci speak. GROW UP
It’s a neis! The first virus to run in terror before a countries midterms!
Honestly though the amount of back tracking and blame shifting after this debacle will be staggering. All I can say is those of you that insist kids need masks in schools are pathetic. All the rest of you that are changing your time at the end of this are cowards, and Baruch HaShem I never vaccinated my kids with that nonsense.
To those who are orthodox and democrat, I thank G-d you are an ever shrinking minority, you are cowards and should be ashamed of the damage you have done to the kids. I hope your power trip was worth it.
“most doctors, who know science a little more than you do, say that masks save lives. since that is a fac”
Outright lie. Vaccines save lives (also cost some but that’s seperate) but the experts have admitted masks don’t. And why you still think someone today will “probably die” if you don’t wear one defies logic. Not even the cdc agrees with you.Let’s all face up to the facts:
There are some people who have no issues with mask – wearing, and who will happily mask themselves when requested to do so. They see this as a way of showing derech eretz, of being courteous, cooperative and respectful of other’s wishes.
There are other people who are resentful when asked to don masks. They believe masks are pointless, and that by being made to wear one, they are being denied the right to breathe freely and that their liberties are being infringed upon.
Know this: whichever group you belong to, you won’t be able to persuade anyone from the other group to your way of thinking.
Don’t even try.“most doctors, who know science a little more than you do”
Yeah they lost a lot of respect and authority after this. That statement literally means nothing anymore, good try though.
” that it isn’t about defiance, and that your opinion may not be the only one out there”
I can only speak from my experience but from the people I know who resisted masking it seemed to be just an adolescent attitude to authority. Most of the mainstream medical advice has been to mask up. I know there were some dissidents but I would like to ask you can you name a mainstream medical or health organization that argues that masks don’t provide any benefit to stopping the spread of COVID?
I don’t know anyone in real life who refused to mask, but many who believed, with cause, that it was pointless and not supported by science unless it was a properly fitting kn95 worn only a few times and then replaced. And not put down on any surfaces that were touched by people. This wasn’t happening. The usefulness of masking wasn’t referring to the masking most of the population were doing.
Do I know a mainstream source? I will try to locate them. But you are missing the point. My doctor is my authority. If my doctor advises me to do X, why do I need to find you a cnn contributor who agrees? Our job is to follow the science, not the politics. I have never gone to fauci before, why would I chose his advice over my own trusted doctor’s?
As much as you don’t understand the mask resistance, I agree. I cannot fathom being discredited when I say I was following doctor’s advice. Who are you to say I wasn’t? Who are you to turn a deaf ear to my explanation (as above with your request for a famous doctor)? Why is your obstinance and denial any less outrageous, childish or wrong?
P.s. even tho I know how useless the masks are and am not so quick to forgive or forget the abuse others heaped on fellow jews who didn’tlike them, I always wore masks when needed or when around anxiety ridden friends. And I never treated them for wanting it, with the disrespect that I was given for hating it.
None of this even matters since many businesses still keeping the mask mandate.
Putting aside countries that are different in geography, demography, and culture, US is doing 2-3 worse than comparable countries – Canada/UK/Germany/France/Israel in terms of death and sickness. As Us is edging on 1 mln of deaths, we can estimate that 500,000 of them are due to leadership and population behaviors. So, you can continue believing in strange science from some websites, but we are obviously doing _something_ wrong – despite having a lot going for us: large territory, larger houses, more driving than public transit, vaccine and medical developments …
This might be a combination of – bad medical practice in the above places; large nursing homes; low vaccination rate (10% below similar countries); obesity; but still a lot left to behaviors
Some say that this is a side effect of American independent streak and this might be true. This might be an excuse for an Alabama or Chicago downtown behavior, but Yidden should know that middos should be controlled by intellect. For me, the mass denial after witnessing bubbies, zeidies, and hoshive Rabbonim dying, is mind-boggling.
Syag, I saw some serious academic anti-maskers at Cato referring to the same Bangladesh study we discussed here as a more authoritative one among a long list. They report it though in a distorted way, like “only 0.0x reduction”, when relative reduction is 20% … I emailed a polite technical message to one of the authors with a PhD and a Harvard affiliation but did not hear back.
Based on this and other similar readings, I dare to say if you were reading secondary sources that quote scientific articles in a serious-looking way on such a hot topic, you may be fooled (either way, depending what you are reading).
” For me, the mass denial after witnessing bubbies, zeidies, and hoshive Rabbonim dying, is mind-boggling.”
Your replies are so bizarre. How can someone who spends every waking moment tallying the dead not have noticed that the calendar pages turned. Let’s pretend I can ask you a straight question and you will answer it. Are you under the impression the omicron pandemic of today is the same in regards to danger and risk of death as the 2020 coronovirus? This is a yes or no question.
“Syag, I saw some ”
here’s an illustration of this conversation as it keeps going around and around and around (oddly enough, I even just said this two posts up. hmmm)
You: I wonder why people use umbrellas
Me among others: to keep their clothes dry
You: I keep asking this question and never get any responses
Me among others: to keep their clothes dry
You: It just amazes me that I can keep asking this question over and over and not get any responses at all
Me among others: Several of us answered you. You just refuse to acknowledge responses you don’t like
You: see? Nobody responded. So puzzling.Goldilocks > Let’s all face up to the facts:
You are probably right about entrenched opinions, and it is a sad fact that people follow “beliefs” here rather than trying to find out information. I think psychologists call this “crystallization” – early on information trumps on the further one. Does anyone have an insight what was typical initial information that caused people to conclude that masks are worthless? Was it that they didn’t like it first and then found justification? something they read or heard from friends? something they first “figured out” themselves, like “a small virus will not be stopped by a large filter, obviously” ….
the second interesting part that anti-maskers often point fingers to cloth or even surgical masks –
see they don’t work, only K/N-95s do! I would think that they will then start wearing K-95, but not their thinking seem to stop right there – “see they are wrong”.” I think psychologists call this “crystallization” – early on information trumps on the further one. ”
ah, so I guess this is you offering a partial explanation for your comments? Ok, that helps a bit. You aren’t able to move on from the original march 2020 situation regarding the danger of covid and the potency. You aren’t able to move on from the terminality of it even tho the science has moved on from that? I can definitely hear that.
” Bc there is no question that the enslavers have a bigger and better deception coming around the corner.”
such an important line, I hope I’m wrong, but seems to me the covid was just a “practice run” for what they have coming next down the line.
And if you enjoyed mask mandates, vax mandates, quarantine, etc. then you can cont. burying your head in the sand.I’ve learned its really not worth the effort to debate anyone who feels their “life and liberty” were fundamentally disrupted by having to wear a mask in certain circumstances. These sad individuals typically were angry underachievers prior to Covid and now have a “new” issue to to grab on to that helps them cope with their sad lives. Yes, there are legitimate differences on the efficacy and metrics to assess various protocols, drugs and therapies but to those who claim its an existential matter for them, nothing will help and after a point, they are unworthy of further dialogue. As most posters have noted, masks were an annoyance but we complied where necessary and have now moved on to pretty much a pre-covid lifestyle.
Memo to the anti-everythingers: Get a life and move on too before your anger and hatred eat you up from the inside.“Memo to the anti-everythingers: Get a life and move on too before your anger and hatred eat you up from the inside.“
Spoken from a true ANTI trumper from experience
GH – thank you. Agreed. I’m surprised by your closing comment since, as evidenced above, there is no shortage of a need to move on by people like aaq either. But thank you still.
Can anyone explain the over 3,000 covid deaths in the US today?
Many of these people were healthy people until a few weeks ago. Now they are dead.
Does anybody care about them?
Shouldn’t the US Government care about them?How about the 3,000 health people today who will catch covid and die within a few weeks ?
If there would be a list of names everyday of the 3,000 people that died would people start realizing that covid is not over ?
Maybe they would finally realize that there should still be an effort made in protecting lives.Jackk,
Tell that to hochul, Murphy and the guy in California
Coffee Addict,
I want to know what is your answer.
jackk – that’s a somewhat odd question. Of course I care about the deaths. And I care about the people killed by child abusers and cancer and by drunk drivers. I insisted my kids sat in car seats and buckled up even when it made me unpopular among other parents (ie “no, I can’t drive your child without a booster seat”). I don’t give them medication that was not prescribed to them (ie. “i’m sure it’s strep, just use the antibiotic left over from the other kid”) serve alcohol to minors, let strangers spend time alone with my kids etc. I care. And when I can do something to change it, I try to do so.
Right now I work in a public school with strict covid prevention guidelines. 3 fathers have died since september. It is tragic. You have decided they have no underlying conditions but I don’t know that. I do know, however, that the kids who are masked and sitting behind screens ETC have spread omicron to each other like wildfire. For three weeks, beginning a week after thanksgiving, we had HUGE numbers of absences. One week the district had more absences than they will ever admit in writing. Three weeks later…It’s gone. we are not seeing anymore spreading or infections or absences. So what did I walk away with? The preventions did not help, the herd immunity worked, over 99% of the infections were mild to asymptomatic, and the damage that these kids continue to suffer from the mask wearing is overloading the special ed team with serious long term damage.Does that mean I don’t care? No. It means that I am watching long term suffering (that you and other won’t even acknowledge) of too many children that is being perpetuated in order to “sheild” these children from not-very-real dangers. If parents were found to be inflicting these types of damage on their kids, the authorities would have been called. And I mean that. There is serious developmental, academic, social and emotional damage here. Do you care?
@Syag Lchochma:
As I said, I was only speaking from my experience with anti-maskers. Many of the ones I know mocked me and others for wearing a mask and some of them had this childish joy of bucking authority. I was not attributing that attitude to you.
got it. thanks for clarifying and i am sorry you have to deal with that
“Are you under the impression the omicron pandemic of today is the same in regards to danger and risk of death as the 2020 coronovirus? This is a yes or no question.”
crickets
Syag,
First , I was not asking you on this issue , because I know what your opinion is.
1) My point is there are people (and based on the title of this thread maybe the OP and others on this thread are among them ) who mock people for wearing masks and getting vaccinated .
Why would you mock people trying to protect themselves and being Mikayem Vnishmarten Meod Lnafshosaichem?Why would you mock people who asked their Rabbanim what to do and have been told to get vaccinated and wear masks?
In fact, there are many famous Roshei Yeshivas who still are very compliant with all the policies to protect themselves.2) When did Republicans decide that Public Policy is a ” let’s make fun of all the rules ” issue?
When did they attribute public safety policy to power grabs and population control?
They never consider the side of the people who are still dying from Covid today.I am not discounting that there are downsides and terrible consequences of forcing kids in school to wear masks. Or any of the policies to protect people from Covid.
Hindsight is 20/20. It is not fair to say what the school should have been done based on the outcome.
The decision to mandate vaccines and masks is not a light and easy decision. As I wrote , they are still trying to save 3,000 people a day from dying.
If people will acknowledge the weightiness of the decision, I could understand both sides.
But that is not where we are it.3) The republicans and its subsidiary fox news, believe that the CDC, Dr Fauci , some members of the Medical Community and Governors that mandated masks and vaccines are all enemies. They are all evil enemies .
When did it become logical to call Dr Fauci a murderer because of ideas in a book written by a conspiracy theorist , anti-vaxxer and someone who said that Anne Frank had more freedom in hiding from the Nazis than people have today under U.S. vaccination policies ?
4) The OP would have hated and despised living in the midbar with the Shechina and Moshe rabbenu.
In the midbar there was no freedom at all. EVERYONE LISTENED TO HASHEM AND MOSHE RABBENU OR THEY GOT PUNISHED IMMEDIATELY.
You didn’t listen to Hashem , Moshe Rabbenu , The Sarei Alafim, Chamishim and Meos – there was an immediate punishment.
Either from Heaven – by your Manna being sent miles away from your door, getting Tzoraas etc … or by the Beis Din of Moshe Rabbenu and the Shotrim.
The same when we had a Melech. There was no longer “Ish hayashar Baynav”.
Dovid and Shlomo Hamelech demanded perfection from Klal Yisrael in following Hashem’s Torah. Nothing less. No freedom at all.None of what you write is familiar to me. I’ve heard nor read nothing of the sort. But I hear now where you are coming from.
I will just say that, with me not disagreeing with your reasoning, we are further down the road now to where we cannot continue to treat covid as if every unmasked face is a murder. The stats don’t agree with that view. But you are correct that we need to be conscientious about who we cross paths with because it isn’t over.
Good shabbosWhy would anyone ever want to stop masking up? There are so many colds and viruses out there dont you think its a little irresponsible to transfer them to others? Or as long as it isnt COVID thats fine to harm others.
Syag > Are you under the impression the omicron pandemic of today is the same in regards to danger and risk of death as the 2020 coronovirus? This is a yes or no question.
yes and no :). Here is what I understand: Omicron is almost as severe to a non-immune person as the original Wuhan, but less than Delta. As Omicron infects those with previous immunity (both vaccine and disease), there way more cases, most of them light. It seems to be almost over in the areas where most Jews live. While cases fell, the sick people were not all cured. Total death numbers for US in the omicron wave are as high as September Delta wave. And, continuously, US is one of the worst among Western countries by that sad statistics. That is not just “with covid” as lagging “excess deaths” indicate.
But back to my sentiment, you are right, it is primarily towards people who were negligent, or rebellious, in earlier times. It is more complicated now – people had vaccines or were sick already, and everyone is already tired of this, etc.
>> seems to me the covid was just a “practice run” for what they have coming next down the line.
…
>> y I was on the train wo a mask and these crazy masked people gave me dirty looksSyag, are you comfortable with the guys like that?
BY > if Always Ask Questions determined this estimate by fiat, it must be true. So I will not ask any questions.
I can answer them anyway: most similar countries have 1/2 death rate. I am excluding New Zealand, etc, just looking at UK/France/Germany overall over the term of pandemic. I am not sure it is right. Maybe US has higher rates of obesity, etc, but 10% difference in vaccination and effect of non-vaccination on deaths seems to be a direct connection.
> I will just point out that the most heavily infected states in the us are the ones with the most restrictions and vice versa.
here are top states by total death rates, your statement seems to be factually incorrect:
Mississippi, Virginia, Kansas, West Virginia, South Carolina, Arizona, Arkansas
Maybe you got this impression by early observations: early hit states were on the East Coast, got most cases, got restrictive policies, people stopped dying. People in Kansas were hit slower, did not pay attention, and continue dying.Gadol > These sad individuals typically were angry underachievers prior to Covid and now have a “new” issue to to grab
Not in my observation. Many were for me fellow daveners, who did not exhibit more psychological problems than others, while consuming cholent. Maybe it is just because I did not know them well enough. Most people whom I considered in high regard behaved reasonably. There is also a category, similar to what you describe, generally people you can share cholent with who might gripe about something unreasonably, but not considered danger to people around them. I encountered one at a simcha, where there was a specific request to only have vaccinated people (due to a medical condition of the baalas simcha, that many might not have known about) – that, at the time, meant no children. Hundreds of people followed the request, while generally not adhering to any precautions, including ambushing the lady who was trying to avoid that. Then, I see a family with a kid. After consulting baalas simcha, I kindly informed them, thinking they can take the kid home 10 minutes away and not miss anything. They angrily replied – we did not notice that on the invite and moved hurriedly towards the buffet.
jackk> How about the 3,000 health people today who will catch covid and die within a few weeks ?
this may not be the case. Possibly, people who are dying now are the ones who were infected several weeks ago at the Omicron peak. So, some opening up policies may be based on the forecasts, maybe optimistic but reasonable. Some of the policy changes are not immediate but 2-3 weeks ahead.
Syag > crickets
I apologize for stepping away from the screen!> If parents were found to be inflicting these types of damage on their kids, the authorities would have been called.
I hear same sentiment from coworkers who have kids in public schools and they are waiting for the day to take masks from kids, indeed. I do not know what is the right balance there. I resolved the issue personally with kids learning online, so they are least masked and vaccinated in the whole country; gave others info about online options; lobbied my local senator to increase public online options (he eventually said that local interests do not allow); and I consulted a couple of schools on doing ventilation (maybe more important than masking), not sure how public schools handle that.
As to those in schools, I am not sure what is the damage to kids form masks, you probably know better. Kids are known to be resilient in general, and I often see kids wearing masks with more skills than their parents. And I am sure there are kids that were borderline before and get fully out of control now. As you are saying, hopefully this is water under the bridge and things are getting better now.
jackk > In fact, there are many famous Roshei Yeshivas who still are very compliant with all the policies to protect themselves.
this is, for some reason, not well publicized. I learned about Ponevezh RY position only when he showed up in person for the first time in front of fully vaxed students with full height partition. Maybe I am reading wrong publications, or YWN caters to the audience ir it is “man bites dog” news.
2) When did Republicans decide that Public Policy is a ” let’s make fun of all the rules ” issue?
When did they attribute public safety policy to power grabs and population control?We need to come to the grip with universal right to vote and the fact that half of the people, gasp, have IQ less than 100! Both on the left, right, and the middle. So, politicians will be getting their votes and exploit any weakness they see. Kamala was attacking vaccine before it was created – because Trump was advertising his efforts and she needed to blunt it.
“Omicron is almost as severe to a non-immune person as the original Wuhan,”
…said no one everSyag,
here are a couple of citations.1) risk of death was approximately 60% lower among Omicron cases compared to Delta
75% reduction in the risk of hospital admission among those 60 to 69 years old
SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation in England, UK Health Security Agency, Feb 11, 20222) Hospitalization rate by Delta 2x higher than Alpha
Hospital admission and emergency care attendance risk for SARS-CoV-2 delta (B.1.617.2) compared with alpha (B.1.1.7) variants of concern: a cohort study. Lancet, VOLUME 22, ISSUE 1, P35-42, JANUARY 01, 2022
this and other articles are saying that post-hospitalization outcomes for Delta and Alpha are similar.From these, my statement needs to be corrected:
omicron hospitalization is 80% of Alpha, death rates 50% of alpha. this is for unvaccinated apples-to-apples comparison. I also suspect that these numbers may be skewed due to Omicron cases possibly having previous infections. I did not see whether this was controlled for in the paper.“The OP would have hated and despised living in the midbar with the Shechina and Moshe rabbenu.“
Ha, I think the OP would have left to bamidar with Moshe instead of being a pushover in miztrayim, but to each his own.
Due to the maskaholics everyone has to suffer mandates. It’s one thing to wear a mask which may help, it’s another thing to wear a useless symbolic cloth. Even water goes through these masks so imagine it stopping a microscope virus
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