- This topic has 66 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I am now going on over a year with an outdoor Minyan in the Forshay area of Monsey. We have a daily minyan as well as 2 minyanim for Mincha and Maariv. We have also minyanim throughout Shabbos and Yomtov. I had minyanim on all of the Yom Noraim, as well as throughout all the big snowstorms. The only thing that I have yet to have since we started is a Bris.
We do not require masks or 6 feet separation because we are totally outside. No walls on my tents or gazebo’s. We have heat in the summer and air conditioners in the winter. Now, with the beautiful April sunshine and cool breeze, I really don’t want to stop. It’s not because I need to social distance, I had the virus and had antibodies. It’s not because I don’t like the far walk to Shul, I have 3 within 5 minutes of my house, the closest, in my backyard. Most of my mispallelim have been vaccinated. We just seem to want to keep it going. Are we the only ones left? Any talk on how long you might continue?Well your next door still has tent minyanim and indoor minyan and it has nothing to do with covid, its because there are 7 minyanim going on at the same time, the vast majority dont wear masks and the place is bh packed, whatever floats your boat/ minyan
You need a Rov. Without that this is improper.
@commonsaychal no one cares
I agree with Joseph.
There is a halacha to daven in a shul. What was a necessary b’dieved has become l’chatchilah for some for convenience.
you really should make a Bris. find a frum doctor whom you trust and ask his recommendation for a proper and healthy circumcision. possibly he will do it himself. there’s really nothing to be scared of. hashem takes care of those performing mitzvos and no harm will befall the baby.
In a article in this weeks Ami Rabbi Moshe Taub of Young Israel of Holliswood bemoaned the fact that 30-40% of the shul members have not returned to the shul choosing instead to stay the breakway minyanim and davening byichidus.
I guess they didnt realize that by doing a long term closure people would voted with the feet.Forshayer, Our outdoor minyan is doing similar, masks became optional a couple of weeks ago. Tent was used only duting Yamim Norayim when there were lots of people. We have about the same group as we had in shul, Rabbi included. As long as you doing out of the right reasons – prudence re:Covid (*), I don’t see a problem at all. R Lebowitz, YU, talked about this a couple of weeks ago, saying that return to shuls seems to be more complicated than leaving and other Rabbis reporting what common saychel says. R Lebowitz mentioned was sounds like a good criterion – it is a problem if you are now participating in other comparable activities, but not opening shuls. I do not, so it is not a problem. I would add a qualification to the Rav’s definition to exclude parnasa-related activities, where one is allowed to take risks that he does not have to take for davening with the minyan.
(*) US would definitely do better if people and government had a little more resolve. As opening accelerated in last 3 weeks, decline in cases over US in general stalled at the level 20x higher than Israel, including NE states that have slightly lower rates. R0 grew from 0.7 to 0.87 in 2 weeks and at that speed will hit 1 in a week. UK reaches a similar case rate as US and now has R0=1.5 ….
Vaccination rate reached daily 1% of population on the day biden gave a speech and now is back to 0.3% that Trump was doing. It seems the failure of the government was inability to achieve sustained high vaccination rates for 2-3 months as Israel did while people felt urgency, so now it is a struggle to convince people who do not see urgency. So, all power of government to fight COVID promised by Biden was a pre-election bluff.@AAQ “As long as you doing out of the right reasons – prudence re:Covid (*), I don’t see a problem at all”. Who are we to judge what is a good reason or a bad reason, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So therefore the drop in memeber is a self created problem by the MO shuls its a non issue at the shuls the never closed or closed briefly,
edited
When people do things over a extended period of time people get use it, like biking during the transit stike, working remote etc. The MO rabbis were so gung ho about closing everything over a very long period of time they should have thought about the long term picture, the yeshivish and chasidish shuls have had almost 100% full minyanim since last shevous
common, you dont have 100%, you unfortunately have 99 left … you may think it is worth the price, the question is, of course, what Hashem thinks about it.
Of course, it was a very difficult decision for every Rav and teacher to close a shul or a school. Both spiritually and financially. Maybe it was an akeida-type test.
In the other aspect I agree – pandemic caused a lot of re-evaluations – WFH, online schools, relationship with family whom people used to see only for a couple of hours. Every depression does, but this one was unusual and abrupt. Many re-evaluations are to the good. So, it is possible that some people figured out that they were not getting much from a shul. Hopefully, this will be a signal for shuls to work on their spiritual value. It would have been worse if things would continue downhill without everyone noticing – until it is too late. Still, it is early to conclude whether people stopped going to shul or switched to shtibles. Currently, a lot of MO members WFH and many continue being careful, so it is not surprising they are not in shuls. Maybe membership payments will show soon (could it be the reason for some to be vocal now?!).
>> Who are we to judge what is a good reason or a bad reason
Rav’s point was conditional to someone’s judgment on being careful, on which he did not opine: if you are not careful and go to other places, then you should be in shul. This makes sense and is also a very humble psak: he is decomposing the problem into public health and shul, and judges only the second one where he is a baki. In this way, we are both right – if people in your shul are not careful in other places, then they got to be in shul. So, everyone is consistent.
These arguments for the outside minyanim are plainly absurd, and no creative pilpul will succeed in swaying a person who thinks straight. A Jew davens in shul. Pack up and go back to shul.
@rational, Interesting you were yelling and screaming that shuls were open and what a chutzpa, maybe the people who kept the shuls open had a longer term vision then you did.
Why should the outdoor minyanim close? its work out fine till now and its easier for a lot of people.“These arguments for the outside minyanim are plainly absurd, A Jew davens in shul..”
So Moishe Rabeinu and the entire dor hamidbor were all a bunch of misguided yidden and held outside minyanim for 40 years?? Does hashem really care weather you are standing behind a shtender in a wood paneled beis medrash or in a tent or under the stars???“common, you dont have 100%, you unfortunately have 99 left”
how do you know that?
“Hopefully, this will be a signal for shuls to work on their spiritual value. It would have been worse if things would continue downhill without everyone noticing ”
this is just such a bizarre thing to say in connection to this covid conversation.
“This makes sense and is also a very humble psak: he is decomposing the problem into public health and shul, and judges only the second one where he is a baki. In this way, we are both right – if people in your shul are not careful in other places, then they got to be in shul. So, everyone is consistent.”
here we go again. some rav makes a psak/statement and then you convert it to something that he didn’t really say but works for you.
sighSyag, I quoted him and then added my considerations for your review. I am guessing you disagree. Please, don’t just give me an F, but present your position directly. Please note that I am asking you, repeatedly, to explain yourself because I am a noce person despite disagreeing with you. Usually, people would not reply to someone who is not presenting any arguments.
by 99. I mean people who passed away, unfortunately. I know I owe you a detailed analysis. Sorry, end of an online school year is tough on parents.
AAQ – I never really know what it is you are looking for. My whole point was that you keep taking words a rabbi says and rearranging them and then assuming he meant that part as well. It wasn’t about agreeing or disagreeing. I didn’t have any hidden thoughts or comments that I refrained from including. My whole comment, this time and many others, is that you take things that individuals say and then use them to make other conclusions that you will also hold as if he said them.
You don’t owe me any detailed analysis. I don’t even want one. I was just wondering how you knew someone from his shul died. My guess was that you would not be willing to accept that there were no fatalities in his shul since that would go against your agenda so you declared a yid dead. But I asked anyway because maybe there really was a fatality, r”l, and I missed his mention of it. If not, that’s a pretty serious proclamation on your part. I hope you will take it back.
Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones! There are also Navvim, such as Eliahu, davening outside even in bad weather! And Avraham was meeting Hashem outside the tent. And Rivka fell of the camel seeing Yitzhak davening outside. And Yaakov did not stay at King David.
In fairness, there was a tent and a cloud above. And we don’t know that Jews davened outside. Maybe they had shtible tents.
Just to clarify, I would not care what you said or did or distorted if you weren’t then using it to make implications about halacha or justify thinngs not sanctioned by halacha.
@AAQ, actualy I belong to three shuls, [Neighborhood, shabbos and weekdays] and BH none of the shuls lost members and we have reopened just after peasch of 2020.
In fact the total Covid deaths in the frum community of NY metro area in 2020 were equal to the cancer deaths.Syag, the Rav made a logical argument, not a halacha miMoshe mSinai, so I can try to use logic to further his statement. This is a normal thing to do. I clearly give a source and, separately, my thoughts. Everyone here can point that my logic is faulty, I will listen with interest. I suggest you ask your halakhic authority whether it is preferable to rebuke people from discussing rabbinical statements. None of the rabbis I know get offended if I suggest a collolary to their statement.
“I suggest you ask your halakhic authority whether it is preferable to rebuke people from discussing rabbinical statements.”
You’re kidding. My problem wasn’t the rabbinical statement, it’s the stuff you add that you attribute to your rabbi until pressed for a source. And that is not a shaila.
And the yid you killed off? No comment? Or a retraction of calling people murderers and then finding out their “victims” are all still living?
Syag > Or a retraction of calling people murderers
According to all statistical information I have so far, people who were not careful lead to extra deaths. I acknowledge that I owe you a more specific analysis.
I also did not see any scientific argument that proves that it was safe to behave that way except anecdotal references that nobody died on this or that shul. Most of the proponents of this theory usually resort to “your argument is incomplete”, “why do we trust XXX”, etc.
You were willing to STATE that yidden in his shul were dead and are not willing to admit you were wrong in making such an awful statement, walk it back and apologize.
And not just apologize, if you decide Jews were dead, as you did, and find out you were WRONG, then the normal appropriate response would be, “OH THANK GD! I am surprised but thrilled to hear that.” Unless you just need them to be dead so badly that you can only find yourself irritated by your error.Syag, look at what a “metaphor” is. I am just thinking for myself.
As an analogy, I was driving on a road where my car was kicking stones to the side, and there is a sidewalk below the highway that I can not see. So, I don’t know whether I killed anyone, but newspapers say that there are people killed by those stones every day, and I can compute probability of my stones killing someone. I would not be able to sleep at night, or continue driving that road, or say “funny, I do not know anyone hit”. And if other people can, I do not understand why.
You cannot bring yourself to be sorry that you declared Jews dead r”l. Or is it just admitting you are wrong that is too hard? I am having so much trouble understanding how you can state straight out that Jews died and spit out nonsense to avoid stating you are ashamed and sorry for opening your mouth in such a way. You were SO sure. And you were wrong. Shame on you for your pride. For myself I need to believe that you are actually sorry even tho you won’t say so.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones! There are also Navvim, such as Eliahu, davening outside even in bad weather! And Avraham was meeting Hashem outside the tent. And Rivka fell of the camel seeing Yitzhak davening outside. And Yaakov did not stay at King David.”
Cute. But we also learn that nobody worked to earn a living; they could just walk outside in the morning and find their food for the day lying on the ground wrapped in dew. And nobody saved up for the future. Everything they obtained to eat they consumed before going to bed that night (except Fridays) and they left nothing over for the next day. And instead of doing kiruv on the guy carrying wood they stoned him to death. The bottom line is, the dor hamidbar was in a very special situation – they were in effect removed from the world for those 40 years. We don’t pasken on how to do things now just because they did such and such in the midbar. We also don’t pasken based on stories of the Avos, because they were on a different plane from us. When Yosef asked the cupbearer to put in a good word for him with Paroh, it was reckoned as a lack of emunah and he got two more years in prison for it; but if we were in the same place, it might be incumbent upon us to do that as a part of our hishtaldus! We are a people of halachic tradition, and halacha is not silent on whether it’s better to daven in a shul or outside, or a home, or a gas station. Yes davening in any of those places is permissible, but our goal as Jews when following halacha is to aim for the ideal.
@AAQ “Gadol +1. hashem even asked an elderly man to climba (small) mountain for a long Torah lecture. This week, Moshe was trying to give a dvar Torah in between some stones!”
You want to use the dor hamidar as an example, how about this? chet haaygil, execpt the golden calf the MO crowd worshiped was Dr. Fauci and his minions both frum and not frum [no pun intended].common, you are just looking for a fight for no reason. I did not use Fauci as information source. Let me know if you caught me doing it! you are attacking a strawman.
Can’t speak for Gadol though, maybe you are talking to him.
@AAQ, if you didnt cite Fauci you used one of parrots, the message was the same. If your going to use Moshe Rabbanu and Mattan Torah as an example of outdoor davening then I can use Chet Haigel as your worship of covid regs.
PS I amd still waiting for you to apologize to three morah dasaras for defaming them.common, most my information usually comes from research articles or raw data that I analyze. And it usually takes several sources to recognize a trend. I do not see any value quoting MSM as everyone gets enough if it. But I do understand now why you are dismissing what I propose without bringing any numbers in response. I guess you are presuming that I am quoting someone you dislike.
Speaking of “value” of MSM. One consequence of the public show of tzadkus by FDA when they paused J&J vaccine, and then publicly allowed it, without even for a moment refusing l’havdil between different groups of people – now everyone in the country saw the headline and do not want this vaccine that was supposed to be useful when going to small and remote settings.
There was an easy solution – limit J&J to men and older women who had no problems at all, and take time to analyze for the rest. But those wise guys wanted attention and did not want to “discriminate”.
The way public reacted may be an all-American trend, parallel to what we discussed in Jewish education. General population is superficially “educated” – that is they can read news headlines on Fbook, so they are now confident to make decisions based on those headlines.
“most my information usually comes from research articles or raw data that I analyze”
Except for what you completely make up and then refuse to retract when you are wrong. Even when it involves declaring jews dead, ch”v.
Avram, you are somewhat quick to dismiss avot and for hamidbar. Most of the Torah is about them. For some reason, Hashem gave us Torah, rather than handing us down a shulchan oruch, or Rambam to teymanim! It is not a dispute that davening in shul is preferable, but current circumstances added a twist, and outdoor minyanim served their role. As we went through both heat and cold, those who were there definitely did it not out of desire for outdoors. I personally miss the shul bookshelves and have to concentrate on davening more 🙂 the question when exactly to end them is transitory and not very important, I think.
@AAQ “most my information usually comes from research articles or raw data that I analyze”
A learned fool is more a fool than an ignorant fool. – Author: Moliere
PS I am still waiting for you retaction
Always_Ask_Questions,
“Avram, you are somewhat quick to dismiss avot and for hamidbar.”
No, I’m just careful to not misuse them.
“Most of the Torah is about them.”
The Torah is not merely a collection of nice stories with good morals. It is the blueprints of the human species given to us by our Creator, and our purpose is to learn from it how to live our lives.
“For some reason, Hashem gave us Torah, rather than handing us down a shulchan oruch, or Rambam to teymanim!”
Where do you think the Shulchan Aruch, et al. came from?
“It is not a dispute that davening in shul is preferable, but current circumstances added a twist, and outdoor minyanim served their role.”
And if you read the OP, you’ll see that it served (past tense) its role, but now despite there really being no need anymore (“It’s not because I need to social distance, I had the virus and had antibodies”), in the nice April air they “[did] not want to stop”. So you bringing Covid safety into this coversation is irrelevant. It’s no longer about Covid safety.
“the question when exactly to end them is transitory and not very important, I think.”
Why do you think you are qualified to determine what is or isn’t very important?
Avram,
if the question is should temporary minyanim become permanent, I am on the side of “no” with possible exceptions where people discovered that main shul was not for them for a very serious reason. This is not a new issue, chasidut started with breaking up communities like that.from my point of view, it is still an issue of COVID. US is behind Israel and on par with UK and both of these countries are starting or considering rollbacks of relaxing. Delta’s R0 ~ 7 invites frequent burst that will helpfully be contained. Still with current decreased case levels due to vaccinations, both sides now have on what to rely, that is why I consider it not so important. Compare to good old times, when someone comes to a minyan coughing and sneezing. Some will offer an abi gezund and a tissue, others would move away and give him a look, and both responses are within reasonable limits.
@AAQ, still waiting for retraction and for you to apologize, oh wait I forgot, facts dont matter for you if it does not fit your agenda
Always_Ask_Questions,
“if the question is should temporary minyanim become permanent,”
And if the question is do I want a roast beef sandwich for lunch, I am on the side of yes with possible exceptions for whether ice cream enters the picture later in the day. Your “if the question is” may sound similar, but it is not the question we are dealing with here. We are davka dealing with davening outside. The question of whether and when to break off from an established shul or minyan to form a new shul or minyan is different.
“from my point of view, it is still an issue of COVID.”
The deflection and now the pivot. You would make a good press spokesman. The OP stated that from his point of view, it is NOT about Covid. That is what is prompting others to urge him to ask a shaila. You even agreed with that position via Rabbi Lebowitz: “it is a problem if you are now participating in other comparable activities, but not opening shuls.” But when GadolHadorah came in with sarcasm about the entire issue of davening outside, inexplicably you jumped right aboard that wagon.
Avram, he sounds ambiguous:
>> We do not require masks or 6 feet separation because we are totally outside.which I read that he prefers outside without masks to davening inside with masks. But later he says that he somehow likes his new minyan. What I am saying, there is no reason to argue about this during the transitional period, hopefully to the better. We usually don’t fight about other issues where there is a range of opinions, same here.
Maybe the OP can clarify, but here are some possible reasons he might have, consciously or not: there is a mutual good feeling between mispalelim who literally went thru heat and cold together; there might be people who go to the main shul who were disregarding safety rules; they may not have liked something in the shul atmosphere to begin with …
Note that there are now reports from multiple areas that post-pandemic lead to many people re-evaluating their lives – jobs, work-home balance, education .. there are always people like that, but now we had a moment of a collective world-wide teshuva movement. Hopefully, we all utilize this moment for the better.
@AAQ, Still waiting for your retraction, I guess facts don’t matter by you
Always_Ask_Questions,
“which I read that he prefers outside without masks to davening inside with masks.”
Remember his minyan had been going for over a year as of this past April. So for some time they were doing it because of Covid. The pshat of the OP though was that he does not want to stop even now that it is not because of Covid (for him). And in retort to DY’s response he brought in Yitzchak and the Beis Hamikdash as GH and you later did, followed by a strawman rendition of DY’s position (where does the S”A say we can’t daven outside? – that’s not what DY said or meant, and I bet he, like the majority of posters here, has probably davened outside at some point in the last 18 months). He also stated that some people are still scared of Covid and he’s there for them. Fine. Why not lead with that, because that’s the strongest case? All the other stuff he’s brought up was worded to start a discussion and debate. That’s what people do on the CR.
“But later he says that he somehow likes his new minyan.”
Liking something isn’t necessarily correlated with being the right thing to do. What if he likes bacon?
“We usually don’t fight about other issues where there is a range of opinions”
Uhhh are we posting on the same CR? That’s bread and butter ’round here. And to start a debate was exactly what the OP intended to do. Do people post on the CR expecting no responses, or just a bunch of “attaboys!”? And possible good came out of the debate. Perhaps the OP wasn’t aware of the halacha that it’s preferable to daven inside. Perhaps some readers did not. Perhaps there was a reader in Monsey who’s still davening alone in his house because he’s scared of Covid and didn’t think there were any outside davenings left, and now he’s in Forshay davening with a minyan. Your chosen username is Always_Ask_Questions. Why are you suddenly shying away from that? Or are you the only one qualified to ask questions and debate things?
Avram,
I agree that in normal circumstances, people should be davening in a shul.
I also think that current period allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it.
I stopped by an indoor minyan in a huge building, and the only persons, besides me, who had a mask was a medical doctor and an apparently unvaxed youngster, as the gabbai gave him a mask. Rabbis and lawyers did not have one… the rules were to have a mask up to several weeks ago …@AAQ, “I also think that current period allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it.” How about from the get go of Covid there allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it?
” most my information usually comes from research articles or raw data that I analyze. And it usually takes several sources to recognize a trend”
I get it, so it ok for you to come to your own conculsion yet a Rav who does the same and comes up a tottaly different idea is not allowed, got it.PS I am waiting for your retraction
>> How about from the get go of Covid there allows for a range of opinions and it is not worth arguing about it?
I did. I think I came here first to hear opinions of people who disagree as I was surprised by some of the behaviors I saw and heard of. Unfortunately, I did not hear any rational arguments. This is together with overwhelming evidence that being careful saves lives.
I also never heard from any Rabbis who had a permissive opinion. Local beit din issued a call for stay at home. In two places, where I saw people not being careful, the Rabbis always were. One of them told us that he approached an Yid in the street and admonished him.
Also, we may not be getting full information about what Rabbis think, for whatever reasons. For example, I only recently learned that R Edelstein gave his first public speech in front of his students. I am not sure why facts like that were not known, maybe you were but nobody quoted him before.
“This is together with overwhelming evidence that being careful saves lives.”
I have friends who PRE COVID
1will not ever touch a shopping cart without bleaching it, washes her hands thoroughly after touching money and she sees herself as being careful and you being a negligent super spreader. Do you understand?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.