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How many people do you think actually read it and know what it is?
Take the johnson&johnson. Not mRNA.
I do not meet many people in the US who are considering taking it, whoever from my freinds asked their doctors about it, the doctors said people with no risk factors for covid should not take it. In Israel there is a witch hunt on anyone who doesn’t want to a lab rat. Yeshiva world news should know here almost no one is falling for their shameless propoganda.
Mindful, hard to understand your environment –
could you describe it in general terms – what geographic area? what kind of yeshiva/general education your friends have? what kind of doctors are these – small offices? national hospitals? how old are your friends? do they wear masks in shul?Always ask questions, I live in Brooklyn and have all the adulation there is to have, Bais Yaakov, 2 years seminary, Master degree. My freinds are well educated people of diverse backgrounds, including an oncologist. I do not wear a mask, and never did, and shulls where I live never asked for masks, and everyone is perfectly fine. The frum communities in Lakewood, Brooklyn, Monsey, and Florida are the irrefutable proof that these masks and regulations do nothing but cause mental and economic devastation.
Mindful, thanks for the information.
I am glad everyone is safe around you in Brooklyn. Here
As of November 2020, 215 people in Lakewood died from COVID according to Ocean county health department (1/3 of total for the county). Lakewood population 105K is 1/6th of the total Ocean county. So, the death rate is 2x over the surrounding towns. You need to take into account ages of population. 8% of Lakewood are over 65, 15% in Ocean county. So, this is about 4x time disparity. So, about 150 EXTRA people died in Lakewood…
For the context, NJ has highest mortality among all states in USA.I looked at Lakewood nursing homes – 7 deaths are attributed to COVID, so this does not explain the numbers even if there is 2-3x undercount in nursing homes.
So, things are not so good in Lakewood. Do you have any explanation about this difference between the numbers and your perception? Maybe these deaths are happening only among Lakewood non-Jews, like makos mitzraim? or do you think, just a hundred neshomos is a fair price to pay to save 100,000 people from mental aggravation?
Read the clinical trial results. There has not been as dramatic a reduction on mortality of any medical intervention in over half a century. That is true for the Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J vaccines. Get vaccinated as soon as you are eligible. There are no really good treatments (hydroxychloroquine has been absolutely proven to be useless).
tristate, “You dont need an experimental vaccine if you take prophylaxis and treat early if you get covid. Look at FLCCC’s website and VladimirZelenkoMD website for exact info.”-I discussed this topic at length in your thread https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/does-ywn-make-money-from-promoting-the-vaccines -I agree with you, I think only those who are somewhat at risk should take the vaccine, unless perhaps there is definite proof that the vaccine stops transmission. It’s a shame about HCQ, as far as im concerned, the Medical Establishment committed a genocide, and the democrats and left-media helped them. Call me a Qanon conspiracy theorist, but the facts are on my side. And so are the opinion of many medical experts.
Charlie you can repeat the same lies, but when your not willing to discuss the facts….
>> Call Somech for guidance if you need help in Lakewood.
Or simply do not go to places with a lot of people, especially without masks, and you will not need help, b’Ezrat Hashem. As my quick numbers seem to show, 3/4 of niftarim in Lakewood are above the norms around it, and thus are preventable.
I dont’ understand how different measures are used in opposition to each other. If it is a genocide, as you mention, then we need to do it all – SD, masks, vaccine, HCQ, (safe) davening. Yaakov did not choose 1 out of 3 things to do when meeting Esav, he did all 3.
Actually I did read it. It’s very informative
@mindful Adulation is a lifelong pursuit. There’s ALWAYS more adulation to be had –– an advanced degree, learning to proofread, using proper vocabulary and spelling (it’s called Master’s degree. You’re welcome.), proper argumentation (straw man, red herring, appeal to false authority, etc.). I’m only saying this as someone who is friends with a few masked oncologists who are busy saving lives when they are not committing genocide.
@torahvaluesoverparty see aboveAAQ, thats hardly a comparison. 1/3 was davening for zchusim. 2/3 was trying to avoid war, 3/3 was to prepare in case 2/3 didnt work. If he knew with absolute certainty that the gifts would appease eisav, would he have prepared for war? Lfi derach ha’tevah, he had to expect a the realistic possibility that perhaps eisav wouldn’t be appeased. Over here, according to my argument, lfi derach ha’tevah, HCQ reduces covid to nothing more than the common cold/flu. We don’t SD and mask up for that. And besides, hundreds of thousands already died before the vaccine was made available, HCQ has been there from the start. It just had to be used. I’ve said repeatedly that I think everyone who’s at risk shouldn’t hesitate taking the vaccine.
NIRC, not sure what your trying to say, I’m not and was never suggesting that the average Doctor in his/her office isn’t trying to save every life. I’m referring to the ones who decide policy across the nation, across the world, which medications we’ll use, and which ones we won’t.HCQ is not 100% solution, and so are masks and vaccines. Even Dr Z mentions that in his opinion only young & healthy might not need vaccines. If you look at costs/benefits, if I understand your concern correctly, then you are questioning whether ALL young & healthy, even those who are not sick, need to take a risk of vaccine if the benefit is marginal.
How do you compare it with HCQ, vitamins – preventive measures also involves healthy person taking these substances. Just because a chemical is called “vitamin”, does not mean it is a chemical that affects the body. For sure, HCQ was never taken by whole population – and you have to take these repeatedly v. 1-2 times for a vaccine. If you are talking taking them only when sick, it is not clear whether all people are capable of selecting the right time to get it, and also it does not prevent you from passing virus to other people, while SD, masks, and most likely vaccine do. Plus consider remaining uncertainty of medical opinion, I think Yaakov had higher confidence in his zechus than we do.
If you are still not sure, use a mussar approach when you are not sure whether your opinion is unbiased or you are simply lazy, physically or intellectually: expend the required effort and then think again. For example, go buy masks, wake up early to go to an emptier store, learn at home and teach your kids one day a week. This should not hurt much.
Tri State & Charlie – I surely hope no one listens to the two of you with your medical advice.
Your both wrong.
Covid-19 is a very serious disease.
If you can get the Vaccine, then get it.
If you come down with Covid-19, there are quite a few treatments.
One is Zinc and Quercetin.
There are others.
Treatment works best in the Onset of Covid-19!“In terms of pregnancy, women have suffered miscarriage, fetal death or pre-term labor after vaccination.”
Unfortunately, these things happen to a percentage of pregnant women. Unless you can prove that it is happening more frequently in vaccinated women your point is irrelevant and simply a scare tactic.
I’m also not sure why on earth you think Brooklyn is a case study for masks not working. Our community was devastated. If you don’t believe me ask your local Hatzalah member or local Doctor/PA/nurse how bad things were.
Thankfully, all the Doctors I know are strongly encouraging their patients to get vaccinated and are willing to spend some time explaining (and dispelling myths) how it works and why it’s safe.Aaq, I’ve got no idea what your trying to say, for the millionth time, I will say that I think anyone to which covid poses any sort of risk-that is if your are let’s say 45+, or any underlying conditions, should definitely get the vaccine. Anyone who is not included in these categories shouldn’t run to take it unless we know it stops transmission-which btw we do NOT know at this point.
As to when administer HCQ, it’s rather simple. When you start feeling symptomatic. And no, it’s not 100% effective, but it does reduce it to the common cold/flu for which we don’t sd, mask up.TVOP -“the Medical Establishment committed a genocide, and the democrats and left-media helped them.”
You’re Wrong about this!
The Libs (namely the DemonCrats & the Media) decided that HCQ + Zinc doesn’t work.
Why? – because Trump promoted it.
Then Fauci decided to be PC and said I’m waiting for a Double – Blind Study to see the efficacy & safety.It was the Libs that committed GENOCIDE, Not the medical establishment!
Why do you defend the Libs & attack the Medical Establishment?!?Did we study Gemora on COVID
Bava Metzia 107a – everything in the hands of Heaven except cold and heat?torah>> unless we know it stops transmission-which btw we do NOT know at this point.
several good news on this front in the last 2 weeks:
one dose of Pfizer reduces asymptomatic transmission by 4x (UK, Lancet). This is 4x reduced transmission, at least. (presumably, viral load of those infected is same or lower).
After 2 doses, 10x reduction in asymptomatic transmission (Israel).
Moderna – 60% reduction after one dose.So, this seems to point that those who are most likely to transmit (16 to 60) should be given vaccine from public health perspective. From personal POV, if you are young and not careful – you are very likely to get a virus (unless others vaccinate). So, even if you have 2 risks – from a wild virus or a vaccine that represents a part of the virus, virus seems like a less healthy alternative.
At the end,
Health: Fauci: I’m waiting for a Double – Blind Study
Health, medical researchers are going through a large combination of treatments, ways to take them, and patient groups. Think, if you have 10 potential cures, 10 ways to administer them (early, late, dosage, etc), and 10 different patient groups (age, health, gender) – you need to run 1,000 trials – first with animals, then phase 1/2 that now seems to be combined, then 3 – requiring thousands patients each. This is a huge enterprise. There were several HCQ trials, they failed. some people say that protocol was wrong – possible. But there are hundreds of other things to try also.
What may be right – that trial planners may be biased towards complex medicines with simple protocols. Tinkering with chemicals is easier than organizing precise human behaviors. As a less controversial example, more people take flu vaccines than wash their hands after using bathroom or skip a day of work or school when they are sick. More people take blood pressure medication than eat healthy food, etc.
If COVID-19 came with a fact sheet, people would fear it more.
AAQ -“There were several HCQ trials, they failed. some people say that protocol was wrong – possible”
No it wasn’t Just possibly wrong.
Those Studies were not combinated with Zinc.
They should have made HCQ + Zn an EUA.
They did it the vaccines and other things toAAQ, “Did we study Gemora on COVID
Bava Metzia 107a – everything in the hands of Heaven except cold and heat?”-what is your point in saying this? If a person kills somebody, do we hold him accountable, or do we say “the person would have died anyways”?
“There were several HCQ trials, they failed. some people say that protocol was wrong – possible. But there are hundreds of other things to try also.”-I don’t think there were hundreds of other things to try early on, perhaps there were, but when many doctors are pointing to a SPECIFIC regimen, that all point to the same anecdotal success, it shouldn’t be that difficult to replicate the regimen in an official double blind study. My point is that the medical establishment intentionally stayed away from the specific regimen when doing the official studies. They can’t possibly be that dumb to do it by mistake.Health,
I am not a boke on specific protocols. But I see some testing of HCQ/Zinc
Sherief Abd-Elsalam Do Zinc Supplements Enhance the Clinical Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine?: a Randomized, Multicenter Trial Biol Trace Elem Res. 2020 Nov 27 : 1–5.other than that, go to some baalei tzedokah and organize a trial, somewhere in a country where you will be allowed. It is not that difficult with some persistence.
Aaq, firstly, the study you reference was very small, and doesn’t quite describe the important variables in the trial, the age of patients, dosage, when it was administered…I’ll refer you to the nyu study that showed patients given the additional zinc had a 44% greater chance of survival than those given just the HCQ+azithromycin.
I’m no expert, I’m just trying to apply comment sense. When early in the pandemic I heard about many doctors having success with a specific protocol, I was expecting the medical establishment to test the specific protocol quite thoroughly. Instead, as a bystander, I saw politics and money get in the way, I saw no study performed that even resembled the way it was supposed to,(according to those who were reporting success with it).
“other than that, go to some baalei tzedokah and organize a trial, somewhere in a country where you will be allowed. It is not that difficult with some persistence.”-i assume this is a joke, and I’ll respond with a courteous “lol”.When I have a kashe in Torah I don’t presume that the sefer I was reading is wrong, I ask a Talmid chacham. If I have a kashe in medicine, I don’t presume that everyone is doing the wrong thing, I ask a doctor. Please stop posting about secret magical snake oil to treat COVID.
Whatever way you cut it, a random healthy individual is far more likely to contract COVID-19 and die than get some form of serious health injury from one of the vaccines.
Please get yourselves vaccinated.
Yserbius I’ve mentioned countless times how this is not just my opinion as an observer-but rather the opinion of thousands of doctors and professionals around the world. You can choose to ignore that inconvenient fact, but it is what it is …
At least you agree that there is a “kasher in medicine”? What doctor did you ask, and what did he answer?
AAQ -“Health, I am not a boke on specific protocols. But I see some testing of HCQ/Zinc
Sherief Abd-Elsalam Do Zinc Supplements Enhance the Clinical Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine?: a Randomized, Multicenter Trial Biol Trace Elem Res. 2020 Nov 27 : 1–5”Please don’t tell me that your a Medical professional?!?
Are you Ubiq – who claims to be a doctor?!?
You gotta to Learn how to read before you come to YWN & make posts!
You So don’t even begin to understand that Study!You even copied the title:
“Do Zinc Supplements Enhance the Clinical Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine”
Even if you’re a Layman – it’s plain English!
They were asking if Zn. makes HCQ any better.
And it comes out – it doesn’t.
What I said is the Opposite – HCQ makes Zinc efficiency better.You need to go back to Elementary school.
Zinc is a known Antiviral.
Tons and Tons of Studies!You Didn’t Even Read That Study!
Don’t worry – I’ll quote it:
“The main hypothesis behind this approach was the fact that zinc was proven to have an inhibitory effect on the RNA-dependent RNA polymerase of SARS-CoV in cell culture [17, 18]. Moreover, CQ and HCQ are known to increase the intracellular concentrations of zinc and thus enhance its effect [18].”Yserbius, there is nothing wrong in trying to understand what is happening with the trials. It is well possible that some HCQ protocol might work, maybe for some population groups and not others …
I’d say if someone gets covid, is there a reason not to try hcq? At the same time, obviously, it is not an argument to not use vaccines. This is like not locking the house doors because you got security cameras.
Maybe it is easier to visualize via money presuming you pay for everything yourself? a vaccine will cost you $100. a serious case of covid would require a cheap hcq/zinc after a $200 covid test and probably a $200 doctor visit.- If it does not work, you might be on the hook for $10,000s of medical treatment. In any case, you might have some later complications that will cost you $1000s for vitamins and medicines.
Aaq, absolutely, I think everyone should get vaccinated. It’s just horrifying how hundreds of thousands died before we got the vaccine. Obviously if Hashem willed it, it was destined to happen, but that doesn’t detract from the accountability owned by many….
Torah: nyu study that showed patients given the additional zinc had a 44% greater chance of survival
Jan 2021 article Andrew Ip, etc Hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of outpatients with mildly symptomatic COVID-19: a multi-center observational study – seems to be saying what you are saying: a retrospective study of 100 people with HCQ v. 1000 without, matching seems to be done pretty well. This and other similar study show benefit and only minor adverse reaction (2%).
@torahvaluesoverparty There are not “thousands” of professionals who claim that, as you do, HCQ+zinc can cure COVID and results in a 90% decrease in mortality. There are thousands of professionals who say that it can be used as a treatment for COVID, but it’s not a miracle drug and there are only a small few yechidim of experts who claim it is. You say people should get vaccinated, but you are simultaneously giving a lot of credit to dangerous fools like @Tristate-Jew who would rather we lose R”L thousands more to COVID.
@always_ask_questions The problem with promoting HCQ isn’t the question of how effective it is, it’s the issue of promoting it as a replacement to vaccination, which a lot of frum people unfortunately are. Furthermore it seeds distrust in doctors and experts and leads to situations where people will refuse doctor recommendations in favor of Biorhythms, essential oils, dowsing rods, or whatever fakery is popular today.@Yserbius, what did @tristate-jew do that makes him a “dangerous fool”?? Him pointing out what it says on the vaccine disclaimer?? What is says on the disclaimer is not his own opinion, rather, what they the experts are telling us! Daas Torah told us to take the vaccine, and that is the only reason why those who aren’t necessarily in the high-risk category, should be taking it. My point on HCQ has been clear. NOT that HCQ should now REPLACE the vaccine, rather, had we used HCQ from the start, we would have never needed a vaccine. Subtle difference. I don’t know to exactly what extent all the pro-HCQ doctors believe in its effectiveness, but m’ma nafshach. If you are going to tell me HCQ was disproved to be (as you call) a “miracle cure”, then pls explain how that happened; refer me to the official golden standard, double blinded clinical study, which was performed on patients in the outpatient setting, given HCQ in low dose, with azithremycin and zinc-that DIDN’T result in at least 80% reduction in death. (I’m pretty sure you won’t find anything like that.) And if no such study exists, WHY NOT?? THAT-is precisely what I’ve been trying to figure out for about a year now. I don’t think the medical establishment is this incompetent. I don’t think they did this by mistake.
>> it’s the issue of promoting it as a replacement to vaccination, which a lot of frum people unfortunately are … . Furthermore it seeds distrust in doctors and experts
I agree on the first. I also think we need healthy skepticism towards medical recommendations. Current crisis gives a lot of examples of how science is imperfect and works through uncertainty. And scientists sometimes being unscientific giving public policy recommendations without having the data. So, it is the job of the public and leaders to process scientific results. And, hopefully, people with Talmudic skills should be good at that discussion. If you can deal wthi sfek sfeika and four amot of halakha, you should be able to reason about double masks and 6 feet.
So, if you meet lots of people who argue HCQ v vaccine, you need to be able to process the facts
they are claiming. I somehow meet more anti-maskers than anti-vaxers. Maybe because first are easier to see, or maybe I live in a place where Jewish community has a sizeable number of medical researchers who gave a number of public zoom lectures early on.@torahvaluesoverparty We’ve discussed this before. You can’t say with total honesty that “just posting the facts” out of context with an uninformed opinion is fine. @Tristate-Jew is clearly trying to push people into not getting vaccinated and you are standing by him. Please don’t insult the intelligence of everyone here by claiming otherwise.
As for your HCQ+Zinc claims, you aren’t following debate protocol. In a debate, you can’t bring up “facts” and demand the other side disprove them. You have to back your facts up. Right now the only evidence that HCQ+Zinc cures 90% of COVID patients is one extremely questionable study published by people who have what to gain from it.
I’m not saying that it doesn’t work, only that there’s no evidence that it works as effectively as you claim. And saying it’s a miracle cure is a convincing argument for people to follow dangerous fools into not getting vaccinated.
@always_ask_questions You’re conflating healthy skepticism with unhealthy skepticism. Sure any establishment needs to be questioned and criticized. But that has to come from a place of equal standing. You can’t just say “Doctors are stupid because I watched a YouTube video that said so”. Right now the frum oilom is in a bit of a crisis because of that. People are not listening to doctors or Rabbonim when it comes to health, and it’s causing illness and death that could have been prevented. And the reasons are because of outlandish and false claims like people in the thread are making and you are encouraging.@torahvaluesoverparty Sorry I missed that comment of yours in which you explicitly tell people not to take mRNA vaccines. That is wrong. Not everyone has a choice as to which vaccine to take. If they do, they should speak with their doctor. Better to take the 99.999% safe mRNA vaccine than to risk continuing to spread a dangerous disease.
@Yserbius123 Firstly, I was responding to @tristatejew’s concern when I suggested the Johnson&Johnson, context is important. Now funny you claim tristates post was out of context. How is that? Seems in-context and relevant to me. You have no idea that the mRna vaccines are 99.999% safe, speak to doctors, ask them if young adults should take it, we are dealing with a concern regarding genetics, uncharted territory, and although perhaps the majority of doctors aren’t worried about it, if you ask around, it wouldn’t be so hard to find many doctors who are indeed hesitant when it comes to young adults taking the mRna. I myself have heard a couple doctors who are a bit hesitant, and I didn’t even look for them. Everyone should speak to their own Doctor and Rov, and make their own private decision.
Regarding HCQ, I’m not exactly “bringing my own facts”. I’m applying common sense. Doctors use specific protocol. 80-90% less death than population. Medical establishment doesnt bother to test that protocol. Exactly what in last few sentences do you disagree on?
Btw, besides saving lives, what did the publishers have to gain from promoting their study?Ywncr glitching now? My latest post doesn’t show up on main page, some threads show more voices than posts..?
Yserbius, I hear you, but it is not right to answer baseless claims with questionable appeals to authority and dismissals. Ask people for their source of information and then help them analyze it. A mindful BY grad with an MS or an MA claimed here that noone is sick in her wonderful community – this is a statement that can be analyzed. I don’t know, maybe she is still going through the sad Lakewood numbers that I posted in response.
For another example: my kids talked to a kid from an anti-mask family. They asked for motivation, nicely as friends (not sure how come my kids are nicer than me). The kid parroted what he heard from the parent: not more dangerous than car accidents. They jointly looked up the numbers, the kid admitted his error. Next shabbos – several kids from the family walking in a mask, a couple fo nmore weeks, a father walking with his head down and a scarf on a chin, pretending that he is just cold, not to admit that he was forced to, I guess.
@torahvaluesoverparty Writing a small snippet of a fact sheet without an expert opinion on the matter is out of context. I can pick up any random chemical or machine in my house and make it sound scary by writing out part of its fact sheet. Context and expertise are important. A doctor or other medical expert understands the risks and benefits of the vaccine and can give their opinion in a much more informed manner than “This fact sheet scares me”. And the alleged miscarriages is total bunk. There have been no statistically significant increase in miscarriages for pregnant women taking an mRNA vaccine.
So we have a dangerous fool holding a scary looking fact sheet and then one-upping that by outright invented facts.
As for your tireless devotion to HCQ, it is merely one of many thousands of claimed COVID cures that doctors all over the world have observed in their work. Many have been tested and none have found anything even close to success. The fact that protocols very similar to the ones your doctor friend claimed 80-90% cure rate were tested and found lacking is enough to say that there’s little hope that this observational study will bear any fruit.
@torahvaluesoverparty Furthermore, @Tristate-Jew is explicitly arguing with you, saying that people should take the (unproven) HCQ cocktails instead of getting immunized. Nu? Why aren’t you saying anything to him/her?
Yserbius Firstly, tristates concern is actually shared by “expert opinion”, its not his own. And when you hear everyone promoting the vaccine as safe and thoroughly tested, you are hearing them reading out the rest of the vaccine label, conveniently leaving out the part Tristate mentioned. I understand what you mean when you say “I can pick up any random chemical or machine in my house and make it sound scary by writing out part of its fact sheet”, but this is simply not the same. It’s new. And a small but significant percentage of doctors aren’t so comfortable for the reasons tristate points out.
Yes, for a drug that could’ve saved hundreds of thousands of lives, I am indeed pretty darn devoted to it. (Don’t want to sound like a kofar, of course whoever Hashem wanted to die, would have died regardless…) “The fact that protocols very similar to the ones your doctor friend claimed 80-90% cure rate were tested and found lacking is enough to say that there’s little hope that this observational study will bear any fruit.”- sorry, but this is a pretty insane statement. Let me break this down. The general idea of HCQ is that it “lets the zinc into the cell”. Zinc, acting as the antiviral stops the virus replication. Older people are more prone to be lacking zinc in their system. HCQ, as with most drugs, can be deadly when given way too much. Now, if you give HCQ to a hospitalized patient, that means the virus already took over the body. Too late for HCQ to do anything. If you don’t give zinc, then no antiviral zinc to stop the virus. If you give 2400mg doses, when the recommended dose is just 200mg, can we expect healthy results? So, to some up, when we perform a study on hospitalized patients, given in large dosage and without zinc, and of course draw a poor result, can we use this study as irrefutable proof that HCQ is ineffective when given early, in low dosage, and with zinc? This is really not complicated.
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