Spanking/Potching

Lech reid ki shiches amcha, says the midrash, mardus heim tzerichim. they need a stick, patsh. Explains tbe Dubner Magid, they are two kinds of rebbis. One, who knows a great deal but is very lenient but another who is not as knowledgeable but is very strict. You Moshe Rabbenu are from the ones who are to lenient and they did a strict rebbe even though he is not as knowledgeable. Shlomo Hamelech says, spare the rod, spoil the child. We say, you can get more with honey than vinegar. This depends on the age of a child. Chanoch lenaar lefi darkah, raise the child according to his understanding. An older child can be exolained why to avoid or do something.

It is not a general rule. A young child crossing the road in traffic requires spanking to avoid this in the future or any other endangerment like striking a match or opening the gas.

@meir g
you’re hacking on the whol homeschooling system?

meir g:WORST of which is HOMESCHOOLING

Meir, my version of Shema says “veshinantem l’vanecha” and nothing about patching. Yours seem to be the opposite

Of course, as Reb E mentions, if you have anger issues and can not overcome them with mussar, then you need to try positive methods only – sweets, payments, competition .. If that does not work, then you might be patur from “veshinantem l’vanecha”, and you will have, lo aleinu, send your kid to substitute parents.

To Amentch and all participants

look up at שבט הלוי חלק י”א תשובה רע”ח אות ב and you will find a clear answer on your question on potching in our times.

In הקדמה of ספר חובת התלמידים he points out that there is a derech hatora in chinuch which is applicable at al generations, like שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת , but while in previous generations even if someone was not so makpid on ימין מקרבת and he used more the שמאל דוחה it did not damage the childs yidishkeit because he was mekabel anyways, but today (and this was before the war) you have to be mechanech solely on derech hatorah שמאל דוחה וימין מקרבת and you can not allow yourself to use only the שמאל.

The lubavitch rebbe in shichas י”ט כסלו תשל”א was talking against what some want to interpret the words of Shlomo Hamelech חושך שבטו שומא בנו as not meaning a real שבט etc. and pointed out that you cannot change the simple pshat of a possuk.

So look up the shevet halevi

meir G
I hate asking a personal question, but we are discussing education here. And you are an educator yourself. I presume you also went to an excellent yeshiva. So, it is relevant.

I see you are writing in full sentences and great spelling. At the same time, you are using CAPS only in the middle and not at the beginning of the sentences. Punctuation is randomized. I realize this is informal writing, and you can point back to my spelling. Still, for people who are used to writing well, like Reb Eleizer above, for example, correct writing is a habit, and does not require an effort.

So, what do you think is the source of your writing style? Do your children write the same way?

Reb Eliezer:

You wrote: “A young child crossing the road in traffic requires spanking to avoid this in the future or any other endangerment like striking a match or opening the gas.”

Apples and oranges. I have no interest in “teaching” my young child about traffic, matches, and the gas stove. My only interest is in inhibiting the dangerous behavior. That can be accomplished with various negative consequences, including the potch. I can reserve lessons about the dangers for later. In the behaviors which parents find irritating, which include chutzpah etc., the goal is to absorb the proper values in which these behaviors will not occur. The goal is to teach, not inhibit. Punishments fail to accomplish that. The comparison is irrelevant. You need a better argument to make potching something that is effective, a choice intervention, and logically appropriate.

In theory, one can say that spanking could be done under certain conditions, including the parent not acting on their anger but for sole benefit of the child (this is halakha for any tochecha)

In practice, people who are capable of self-control to fulfill those conditions, probably can find other ways of influencing a child in 99% of the cases.

Thus, with this Bayesian prior, if you see someone spanking, there is 99% chance that this is wrong and should be stopped.

This is even more true with the Rebbes than parents or trained teachers. Not just my opinion. I once asked a Rav about children behavior at school. He said that, according to his observation, it is evident where the problem is, if a child (or more often, many children) behaves in one class, and do not – in another.

So, you can apply the same test here: if you think child X deserve a patch, is there an agreement on that between all parents and teachers? Given them all a call. It will help anyway (one of the methods of dealing with anger is to delay the process).

crackers: Tip: always imagine someone is watching you before you slap.

good idea. Keep the window open or show yourself (house or class) on Facebook life. Maybe, just for relatives or school principals.

and of course, know Who is watching. Our generation understands this better than ever before.

@ujm:
correlation – yes, causation – not sure. Lots of other things changed also. Make a controlled experiment – put similar kids with 2 different styles of teaching and see outcome.

Anecdotal observation from multiple people – kids behave way better with some teachers, and not others. Is your experience different?