46 Responses

1. Another sloppy letter.
   This is not a “new phenomenon” at all. It’s going on for decades. A mother told me just recently that she’s still paying her 22 year old son’s shoes she bought him when he was 12! hashem yerachem!!
   The gemara says that person is nikar Bekiso bekoso uvekaso.
   I would like to suggest that bekiso means his fiscal responsibility to himself and his family.
   It is a parents responsibility to role model how to handle finances and not spend out of one’s means. Period.
   If a child sees their parents fighting over money issues they can throw all their tuition money out the window.
   Although it’s not a school’s responsibility to teach how credit cards are the satan or how to balance a check book it might be helpful to teach it in 12th grade.
   It should be manditory in chosson and kallah classes and every parent should take the responsibility to be madrich their children.
   School’s should NOT take credit cards as tuition payments unless the payee says that he has the means to pay in full at the end of the month.

2. thought to consider:
   the only company that rarely ever go bankrupt are credidt card companies.

3. very good point. ppl dont realize……its become a MACHLA! i did the same and baruch hashem realized it and today am out of it and living a normal life. it did take 2 and a half yrs to get rid of it but thank g-d its over. ppl should be very careful. its no joke!!

4. OKay, so what’s your point, really? Are you having trouble with your credit cards payments? is it bothering you that people around you are racking up bills? does it effect you in any way? You are a bit vague in the point you are trying to bring across.

5. I will give you a better question. Yesterday my 8th grade girl in the Yeshiva of Spring Valley called my wife on the telephone about the 8th grade banquet at the end of the year. She was amongst a few girls who were called to say that if they did not have their money for the dinner in “now” they could not attend. No, you cant have your Mother bring it with her later, even though she was coming to eat also, because the teacher did not want to be busy collecting money.
   How much it cost aside, how can you embarrass a child like that? Who needs the dinner anyhow? Did the school stop and think that certain families might not be able to afford these extra activities along with $200 trips to Hershey Park or $180 shabbatons? How many families today have only 1 child going to school these days? I personally have a kid getting married in 4 weeks along with a kid who has not even started Pre K yet with 4 more in between. Who are they kidding? Than they call up and say, we take credit cards. Go figure.

6. Thank you for Financial Management 101.

7. a) It will eventually catch up with you, don’t say you weren’t warned!!
   b) This has no special connection the Jewish world (or Yeshiva World)

8. #9 must_hock, thank you. good point. people who don’t have something substantial to say, shouldn’t.

9. The condescending tone of this letter’s writer makes my blood boil.

   Dear letter writer, have you ever been in a situation where you have not a single dollar in your wallet, an overdrawn bank account, and an empty gas tank which needs to be filled to get to work? Or an empty fridge which needs to be restocked with the basics to feed a hungry family? Or an empty bag of diapers which needs to be replenished? Or a school which says your kids must stay home until their tuition is paid.

   I have been in that situation and trust me it isn’t fun.

   Should a person in these situations just live within their means and tell their boss that they can’t come to work because they don’t have money to buy gas, or tell their kids that “I’m really sorry but you aint getting supper tonight”? And don’t forget to add there will no breakfast tomorrow either. And did I mention you’re staying home from school?

   And the fact their wallet is empty and their account is in the red doesn’t mean that they are overbuying or not working hard enough, as you suggested. There have already been numerous threads here on YWN about the fact that 2 average American salaries (husband and wife) is not nearly enough for a frum family to stay afloat.

   I am not saying that using credit cards is the correct way to deal with these situations, but unless you have a better suggestion don’t belittle someone for doing that. And have a little empathy for them in place of the disdain that you seem to have.

   Do some people use credit cards as if it is free money to spend foolishly on unnecessary purchases? Of course some people do. Are some people too lazy to work hard and make a living? Of course some people are. But why do you assume that most people with credit card debt are lazy overspenders?

10. #2 if a person is living his whole life on CC’s why should that stop suddenly when it is time to pay tuition?

11. To post number five: Please refer to Rav Shlomo Wolbe’s kuntras la’chasanim wherein he states explicitly that if one’s family finances gets to a matzav where “ein ha’kometz masbia es ha’ari” then it is time to find a job (albeit he limits it to a job within the realm of “avodas ha’kodesh” which I assume means something like tutoring, being a mashgiach, etc.) and that going into chovos and being misgalgeil from one g’mach to the next is not at all the derech ha’Torah. Similarly, I saw a letter that quoted Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as saying that he has no idea where some avreichim get the notion that they are allowed to borrow money without knowing how they are going to repay it.

    So…even if you may have received a different hadracha from your rebbeim and/or have heard otherwise from different gedolim (e.g. I saw in a seifer a statement attributed to Rav Shach that would definitely seem to be in contradiction to Rav Wolbe’s statement), please be careful before appending the term apikorus, etc. on those that may maintain a shitah different than yours. Realize that even when it comes to gedolei Yisrael Chazal’s statement that “k’sheim sh’ein partzufeihen domin kach ein dei’o’seihen shavin” is applicable, kayadua that we know of many instances where gedolei Yisrael maintained very different shitos on certain issues (and I am not talking about shitos that the overwhelming concensus of gedolim is against), and while it is perfectly ok for you to point out that “Rav so and so said kach v’kach so if you see someone being noheig that way realize it is al pi da’as Torah”, i do not think it is at all ok for you to label someone who may not be aware that Gadol so and so made that statement as an apikorus, etc.

12. #5

    You are so so wrong. Boy I dont knot where to start. Being that I have to get back to work I will not go into too much detail. Learning is the most important thing, but it all goes to waste if there is no Shalom Bayit in the house. 99% of Shalom Bayit issues is over money. This is true in working families and in learning families. Do me a favor and dont make absolute comments quoting the Rambam etc etc. If you do, you show you are an Am Haaretz and have taken something from our Rishonim and read it to appease your views and way of thinking. That is truly Apikorut. Using credit cards is a dangerous thing, I am not in that position where I have needed to, but I cry for those who have and I fear the day I may have to. As a young father starting out with a family, the thoughts of living costs scare the daylights out of me. There are always things one can do early on to try to solidify one’s financial situaiton for the future, but so much is out of our hands. May Hashem bring Mashiach soon and abssolve of us of the problems which stop us from Serving the Almighty with our whole hearts, souls and beings.

    A concerned reader.

13. #10 Fief un – You’re 100% right. I’ve been saying this for years.

14. #5 writes: “But if the author, or any future commenter for that matter, is implying in his criticism that one should not learn in kollel if he has to go into debt CHAS VESHOLOM, then he is a mevazeh talmidei chachomim and might rachmono litzlan have a din of an apikores, as the Rambam states in Hilchos Teshuva.”

    If you want to go into debt, that’s your business. Just don’t ask me to pick up the pieces when you cannot pay the bills. I do not mind contributing to son’s yeshiva to defray the expenses for working families who cannot afford full tuition. But when a yungerman accumulates debt so that he can live the life of learning – don’t come knocking at my door. I would love to stay in the beis medresh each morning after shachris to chap the daf; I would love to spend my mornings exploring the Rosh and the Ritvah, relishing in the joy and excitement of limud Torah. But each month my sons’ yeshiva sends me an invoice; and my landlord expects to be paid; and I have a duty to my rov to see that his salary is paid, too.

15. I should try using spellcheck before posting. I correct myself “I dont KNOW where to start.

16. to #10 and now #16 it is a grave error of not understanding torah learing unfortunatly. Before making these comments Please read (and understand) Nefesh Hachaim shar (4), and Mishnas Rav Aharon. (after understanding these seforim it would it would be impossible for you to tell somone that “because you are not a top learner you should not be spending a full day learning”. If you knew how much their learning was helping you and klal yisroel. So what that he might not be the next mashgiach in fact I think that all those people who learn in kollel and are not the best learners might be far better because it could very well be lshmah which if you look at ohr yisroel you will see that is the ultimate goal. NOT BECAUSE SOMONE is A TOP LEARNER. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L worked his whole life for one concept Learning for the sake of Learning and no other reason.
    May you have your minds become clear on this matter especailly befor shavous.

17. OYSH! Does anyone think the the new “credit card crises” is new?

18. It seems to me one of the problems is we can’t tell the difference between needs and wants, and so we spend our money on wants and then have to use the credit card for needs.

    Just to give an example. Yes, our kinderlach need to have clean, appropriate clothes to wear. But the fashion parade that goes on on Shabbos and Yom Tov is a want, not a need. There are more cost-effective ways of clothing our children than getting 5+ overpriced matching outfits. So much of this we seem to do to ourselves, and then put the pressure on our neighbors as well, with over-the-top mishloach manos and crazily expensive sheva brachos, etc., etc., etc.

    We are responsible for each other, and sooner or later we’re going to have to step back from these false “needs” and focus on our real responsibilities as Jews to our families and ourselves. The more of us who are willing to step off that crazy treadmill, the healthier all our communities will be, and the more energy they will have on serving HKB”H and being raising our children to be erliche Yidden.

19. #23 its sad that people who “YOU” feel should not be learning all day Are still Learning all day and Burdening “YOU” with responsibilities…. I am just glad that hashem supports people and not “YOU”. If you would learn Nefesh Hachayim then you would know that they are not burdening you. Rather, Hashem is giving you an opportunity to support Torah Learning in this way. You would now be able to the schar for learning all day as if it were YOU who were learning all day, as you would be sharing in their reward.

    Hatzlacha

20. Parnosso has always been a big challenge for me and my wife – i.e. we never seem to earn enough to get by. I have worked for others, and also worked for myself. Financial success is decided in shomayim, and, while we have to do our hishtadlus, some people just never “make It” financially, often regardless of education, skills or experience.

    In the early years of my marriage I did give in to the temptation of credit cards.I was very “responsible.” I almost exclusively purchased goods and equipment for my business, and generally did not use the credit cards just to pay bills. After accruing $10,000 in debt – and seriously harming my shalom bayis and my credit – my wife and I quit “cold turkey.” For many years we have not had a single credit card. We use debit cards. If there is money in the bank then we can buy things. If not, not.
    It is really, really hard to live that way, since credit cards have become the easy way to “relieve” financial pressure – at least in the short term. People think we’re crazy, and there are times when we literally do not have any money. But there is a Ribbono Shel Olam, and somehow we always manage to scrape together money for the things we really need.
    I am always looking for ways to try to increase my income, but I have zero temptation to get a credit card.
    I am absolutely not advocating this lifestyle for everyone. But I do think that people should make an effort to reduce their debt – at least the debt they can’t really afford – even though it might hurt, and they might not be able to make all the “essential” purchases that “everyone else” is making.
    It’s hard, but it is healthier in the long run.

21. To number 19
    spell check wouldn’t have helped.

22. Good Morning America, where have you been? This is new? This is as old as the hills!

    Now, to put things into perspective. 1)There are people who do this because they have no choice because of their financial predicament. May Hashem bentch them with ample parnassa!

    Those who do this by thinking they will beat the system are crumbs and eventually it will catch up with them.

23. #23 AND #24

    Although I agree with most of your comments, I disagree with this line “someone who learns for the sake of learning, and has the head to become a gadol”. You don’t necessarily have to have the head to become a gadol, you have to WANT

24. I do not judge others. There definitely are some people who are justified in being in debt. Things happen in life. People lose jobs, develop health problems, and other crises. However, every little 19 year girl doesn’t have to be wearing $ 2000 jewelry, and $ 400 sweaters, and $ 150 shoes. It’s time to get real! Our frum community has gotten too big for its britches. What happened to the simple life? What happened to living like people lived a generation ago? The young couples in general wouldn’t live in the boroughs of New York City any more because, for the same money as an attached house in Brooklyn or Queens, they get a big house with big land in Long Island or New Jersey. Do they realize that the big house with big land comes with big taxes, big heating bills, big electrical bills, big tickets for the LIRR, or other lines from the burbs, two cars instead of one, etc? Let’s come down to earth.

25. #23 and #24

    Although I agree with most of your comments, I disagree with the line “…and has the head to become a gadol”.

    Anyone who WANTS to learn, SHOULD be sitting and learning and try to be the next gadol, you don’t necessarily have to have the head for it.

    The problem is that most bochrim today are only in yeshiva full time because they HAVE to be, be it because of their image or shidduchim etc. therefore they are not really learning all day anyhow, so they should not forced to be in yeshiva full time, but this is a different issue for another “out of the mailbag”

26. #30 How can you make a generlized comment that most bachurim today are there because they have to? 2nd even if they “have to” many many success stories have come from lo lishmah to buh lishma. And if your still not sure your welcome to go into the B.M’s of Mir, Chaim Berlin, BMG, and so on. PEOPLE STOP LOOKING AT WHOS TAKING COFEE BRAKES & START LOOKING IN THE Bais Midrash 1000’s of yungelit learning with amazment and concentration. (IN FACT LOOK IN YOUR OWN SAFER!)
    There are classes of young kids brought to BMG all the time just to see what learning in masses looks like, its so uplifting. Torah is precious. So big deal a bunch of people sign up to learn for 12 hrs a day and end up learning for 6… its precious and if thats all their mind could bear dont look at it as robbing the rich balei botim, they signed up for Torah and are trying their best. (Hashem Desires the Heart)

27. I was taught from a young age “dont buy it if you dont NEED it”

    I bh make a good income and am a horrible spender.. which is why, plainly put I have no credit cards at 23.

    I see people with nice phones and I have no desire.. amongst other things I sell online are phone.. I see people racking up huge bills its meshuga.

    I am not implying that many c’v have a hard time paying bills.. but kids spend too much.. send $ to your parents.. save, invest etc..

28. I don’t think you’ll find gedolim of any generation saying that kollel avreichim should indiscriminately plunge themselves hopelessly in debt. The matzav, both in Eretz Yisroel and the US is terrible. People take out second or third mortgages, as well as trying to carry tens of thousands in credit card debt. And then they take home equity loans to try and pay down the other high interest notes that they have. In EY in particular, yungerleit routinely play “musical gemachim,” borrowing endlessly to service their ever-increasing debt.

    The reasons all sound – well – reasonable. “I HAVE to buy ____ (insert the high ticket item of your choice – apartment, furniture, jewelry – and the latest fad in EY – Pesach in a hotel) or I won’t be able to make shidduchim for my children,” or similar arguments.

    (I’m not talking about emergency situations – just everyday life.)

    Rav Shternbuch, in the 4th volume of Teshuvos V’Hanhagos, has a fascinating teshuva about debt. He says that since, al pi din, a debtor is obligated to sell his possesions to pay his debts, why don’t contemporary Batei Din advocate more strongly on behalf of the creditors? In other words, why are debtors let off the hook? His answer is that since the oomos haolam no longer enforce their debt laws (no more debtors prison etc.), it would be a chillul Hashem for the goyim to appear to have more sensitivity and rachmonus than the Torah.

    But nevertheless, he reiterates that a debtor is absolutely chayiv to even give up all his possessions to repay a debt, even though the Beis Din might not force him to do so. So it is not a simple thing klapei maalah to live in a perpetual spiral of increasing debt, even if one is learning, unless their is a real cheshban of how to pay it off.

    I once asked Rav Sheinberg, shlita, if I should move to EY. His first question was if I had money in the bank. He said a person needs to have a “matzav.” and cannot simply live on bitachon. It’s possible his answer was tailored for me specifically, and he would tell someone else something different, but that is a matter for conjecture.

29. 22, 29 and others, we’re not all caught up in the rat race. Some people use their credit cards to clothe the family at the thrift shop (and pretty presentably, I might add).

    It’s been heartening to see asifos for high school girls to help them get real about the toll of making chasunos. I wonder if any of them will touch the support issue.

30. So it seems that to keep a young man sitting in a yeshiva it is not only necessary that his wife work, the children be taken care of others, the grandparents delay retirement to support the young man. Now it seems that it is fine for the family to go into debt and/or take a second mortgage on the in-laws house to enable the young man to wake up in the morning to spend the day in the Bet Medrash. I hope someone can show me a Pasuk in the Torah that supports such irresponsibility.

31. Rav Chayim Kanievsky writes in Orchos Yosher that young couples need to have budgets.

    The average 18-25 year old American has $7000 dollars in credit card debt. We are not necessarily worse, but we should know better.

32. as the saying goes people buy things things they dont need to impress people they don’t like

33. I want to make two points.

    1) Credit cards are good to use IF used responsibly. I have several credit cards that earn cash back for purchases. I davka buy EVERYTHING on credit cards BUT I pay the balances in full every month. I can a few hundred dollars a year tax free just from credit card rewards. Like everything else, they can be both good or bad. It all depends on who is using it.

    2) I honestly believe that a major cause of this out-of-control debt is the exorbitantly high cost of living an Orthodox lifestyle. Yeshiva tuition is astronomical and keeps rising further. I truly believe we’re heading back to a situation where some frum kids will have to go public school because parents simply cannot afford yeshiva AND food/rent etc.

    I B”H earn a good salary but it’s not enough to cover costs. We do not live big, have old cars, never take vacations anywhere and don’t indulge in any luxuries.

    I’ve heard it said that yeshiva tuition is the most effective form of birth control in the Jewish world.

34. Maybe the whole musag of credit cards was created by the Ribono Shel Olom in order to help the multitudes of yungeleit sitting in Kollel to get by every month.

35. Does YW print every single letter they get? How disgustingly condescending to people who are working as hard as they can and not managing to afford their families’ needs. My only nechama is that the letter writer is able to keep his personal budget balanced – may he always continue to be able to do so. The reder himself says he doesn’t know what they could be doing differently – if they could be buying less or earning more. This is “mamish” a new “madreigah” – where even YOU know you don’t know, and you give advice anyway. Usually people who give advice at least THINK they know.

36. By the way, a great irony is just under the box where you type your comments, is a flashing ad for unsecured lines of credit up to $450,000!!

37. #7
    “Did the school stop and think that certain families might not be able to afford these extra activities along with $200 trips to Hershey Park or $180 shabbatons”

    I also have a 8th grade daughter in Yeshiva of Spring Valley and there were definitely a lot of extra expenses this year. And I also know of at least one father who sent in money to the school to pay for girls who may not be able to afford to pay for the trip. However, there was no Shabbaton AT ALL and they certainly did not have a trip to Hershey Park for $200. The trip was to Newport, RI and the cost was $72. Stop and think before you are being Motzi Shem Ra.

38. The thing is that if you keep running up credit card bills to learn in kollel you still have the bills. The Credit card company does not care about how wonderful your kollel is. They want you to pay them back. If you don’t sooner or later they will stop letting you have more credit. If you can’t pay your bills bad things happen. By which I mean the bank will foreclose on your house (or your landlord will kick you out). In addition if you can’t afford heat and food child services (or whatever they are called where you live) may take your kids and put them in foster care. If you think I am kidding I am not.

    Wanting to learn in Kollel is fine and good, but please spend a few minutes to think about how you are going to keep a roof over your head for the long term future.

39. Dear Letter Writer,

    If I may paint a different scenario to explain the need for living on credit cards and getting into the debt you talk about.

    Suppose husband and wife work for Yeshivos and (unfortunately) constantly get paid late, with a family size of 8-12 children, with the Yom Tov of Pesach (nobody invites you anymore because your family is too big). Do the math and figure out how much you need to support your family on a MEAGER lifestyle.

    Is this scenario not happening often enough??

40. Love #38. And when is one allowed to pay HUGE interest rates on culminative credit cards charges so that he can stay in learning. 18% monthly charges is the standard rate, last I saw.
    Do you really sleep well at night, knowing that unless you win the Lottery, that is no way you’ll ever in one lifetime pay up. It stands to reason that you are comfortable living and after 120 yrs., dying with a monstrous debt.
    Are the parents supposed to bail you out? Do you expect some Vaad to put heartbreaking letters of appeal in various newspapers asking for money to “help a yungerman, a ben Torah who is (actually his wife)buckling under from the strain of debt”? The Vaad will of course leave out the credit card angle.

41. The crux of the problem is not Kollel or not.The REAL problem is people have to learn to say NO!If you dont have money for camp KEEP THE KIDS HOME.If you dont have money for the bungalow STAY HOME FOR THE SUMMER.If you dont have money for the latest Honda Oddysey lease deal DRIVE A GOOD USED CAR.If you dont have money for matching outfits for 5 girls USE HAND ME DOWNS. If you dont have money for the fancy bar mitzvah MAKE A NICE KIDDUSH IN SHUL AFTER DAVENING.if you dont have money to go to a fancy hotel for Pesach MAKE PESACH AT HOME.And on an on.The point is that you shouldnt envy your neigbors and get into debt to keep up with the Jonses and be obsessed with WHAT WILL (fill in) THINK!

42. It is interesting that although the original topic is credit card debt, somehow the kollel system is cited in many comments. This reflects the unease that so many feel regarding what has happened to Jewish family life, in one generation. The kollel phenomenon is a great social experiment, and like many of us, I fear the consequences.

43. 55, and what if you’re doing all that and still can’t make ends meet?

44. The gedolim shli”ta have stated in many venues that the importance of learning Torah and helping kollel yungerleit supercedes ALL monetary concerns

    All? Really Its more important to learn in kollel than to put food on the table? How about pay the rent?

    Do you think your kids will be filled with the a respect for a Jewish life if all they see of it is nothing to eat because their father wasn’t able to pay the bills?

45. Not that there’s much more to say on the subject, but why isn’t this on the list of “Out of the Mailbag” letters on the homepage link?

46. re 59: thanks.