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There are multiple CR topics discussing the elections, how much fraud if any, was it more than other years or if it was enough to overturn the elections.
I want to open a forum to discuss the facts alone. This is a kind of experiment to see if we can create something resembling a wiki about the facts of this historic event. You can post speculations or opinions of various officials but please state it as such. Please only post what can be factually confirmed and verified with sources. I am unsure of YWN link policies so you can reference the source by website name and article title to help with google searching. Or post YouTube video titles with minutes.
Please try to be as objective as possible. One of my favorite definitions of objective reporting is that if someone reads your article he cannot guess whose side you are on.
This should be a place where everyone no matter your bias, can agree on most if not all of what is being posted. Conclusions can be made if it is obvious to all. I will leave it to the dozen other forums to interpret the facts posted here. I hope this will also contribute to more substantial debate there.
Although obviously I can’t enforce any of this I would really appreciate if we can work together on this and find the middle ground. At the end of the day we are all human beings and Jews and we all care about the truth and justice.
If anyone has any suggestions to improve I welcome your input.I appreciate your ambition and your dedication to seeking and establishing emes. My initial take however, is that I’ve noticed most people who have posted corruption allegations are not similarly searching for the truth and are singly guided by their support for Trump. If there are exceptions, I apologize, and I have seen a few instances of open-mindedness in the CR. But if someone would be interested in emes, they would take a few minutes before posting to visit the freely available resources online to see these allegations have typically been debunked, at least the ones I’ve seen.
It seems people alleging corruption are only visiting news sources with one single agenda. I’ve also heard a lot of, “I don’t bother with the news, this is just what I hear.” At best, this is tantamount to the same thing (at worst, it’s just shielding themselves from any scrutiny and responsibility).As a practical matter, it seems like such a topic would require lots of moderation; so many allegations in a long thread will be disjointed. Might be more effective to be able to categorize chats around distinct issues.
“My initial take however, is that I’ve noticed most people who have posted corruption allegations are not similarly searching for the truth and are singly guided by their support for Trump”
How sad that you felt the need to stuff this into the one thread I thought I could look forward to reading. That allegation is so true for both sides that it was not worth mentioning, especially on someone’s call to avoid just this.
Even if there was fraud, there was not enough to overturn the election.
You are right, I was a bit skeptical and perhaps I am blindly overlooking that there could be stubborn partisians on both sides. To that extent I apologize, and in case you and other Trump-supporters are guided by true search of emes and are interested in this thread I hereby accept a k’nas of refraining from posting on this thread for now, until things get going. Much hatzlacha.
From a historical perspective we know it is a fact that there’s been multiple instances of electoral fraud that have likely changed the results of the election. Examples are the fraud Democrats LBJ/JFK committed in the 1960 election that Nixon rightfully won. The Chicago Daley Democrat machine was notorious for committing electoral fraud for decades. So was the Tammany Hall Democrat machine in New York notorious for their electoral fraud.
These are just some examples of known cases of fraud by Democrats. For every known cases there’s likely a dozen more unknown cases where they weren’t busted.
And there was electoral fraud by Democrats in New Jersey local elections just two years ago. As well as many more cases.
“I want to open a forum to discuss the facts alone”
The problem is this is almost impossible to do.
I’m skeptical that anyone here is equipped to investigate a allegation. Weve all seen video of People walking around a room as a narrator says “here is a poll worker taking Biden votes counting them again, taking Trump votes throwing them in a shredder etc” Is this a fact? OF course not.
We can share all the various allegations from today until tomorrow those who support one way. Is it at all plausible that a Biden van showed up full of ballots that they carted into a polling place in NEvada? Did the star witness the Trump campaign put up in Michigan , Melissa Carrone, who appeared drunk and had to be shushed by Guilliani seem even remotely credible?
If you want to beleive then of course it is plausible and of course she does.
But without the ability to investigate we don’t have any real way of knowing. so listing thess ” “allegations” and yes, allegations is pointless.
What is more useful is creating a wiki of those who CAN and HAVE investigated .
People like judges who have heard evidence and ruled one way or the other – these are useful facts. Certainly pointing out party of affiliation of judges is fact too that may be relevantso here is one fellow who unlike people here CAN actually investigate allegations Attorney General Bill Barr (appointed by Trump) said “to date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have effected a different outcome in the election”
This “can be factually confirmed and verified with sources.” so it satisfies your criteria.
Hmm, Reb e., Goalposts shifting just a bit?😅
Fact:at around 10:30pm election night, in a county in Georgia, there was reportedly some sort of pipe bust, poll watchers were told to go home as the counting would stop. Then this happened.WATCH THIS: Trump Team Presents Video Evidence Of “BLATANT” Election Fraud In Georgia
Id love for some ywn liberals try to explain how this is “normal procedure”. Entertain me.Note that for years Democrats and their media cronies were yelling that “voting fraud is rare”. That lie has morphed today into “there wasn’t enough fraud to change the outcome”.
Torahvaluesoverparty
” Then this happened….”
then what happened? Whats in the box? Is it dinner menus? Trump Tax returns? Rolodes with plumbers who operate late at night? Who knows
Make Sure bill Bar gets the video (hopefully he is on Yeshiva World and has access to this wiki) Send it To Gulliani so he can bring it to a 42nd court hearing or however many they are up to.
But You (and I) dont know what you looking out just because someone narrates it.
Fixed it for you
Ubiq
Don’t see anyone in this thread titled that disgusting name you referenced, but if you can’t watch that video and perceive what is happening, you are probably a partisan hack, and perhaps you should just keep your observations and comments to yourself without embarrassing yourself more than you have already done…..this video comes along with sworn affidavits from poll watchers claiming they were told to leave because of a “pipe bust”, and the counting was supposed to stop. 1+1=?
But I would love to see some more of you try to defend this video, expose yourselves as the partisan hacks that unfortunately, some of you are. It’s torah-values-over-party.torahvaluesoverparty
I’m sorry about the name I thought it was funnier than mean. I misjudged, thank you mod for fixing it.
“But I would love to see some more of you try to defend this video”
I did not defend the video. all I pointed out is that you don’t KNOW what it shows. Sure if you want your guy to win no matter what then you see what you want. Ditto for me.
That’s why I said, make sure Bill Barr gets it, make Sure Gulliani gets it and can show it to a judgeI’m not sure why saying let them investigate is a controversial position
this video comes along with sworn affidavits from poll watchers claiming they were told to leave because of a “pipe bust”, and the counting was supposed to stop.
The pipe burst at 6am, and they couldn’t count the absentee ballots. This video has a time stamp of 11:05 pm if I’m reading it correctly, so really doesn’t seem relevant to the burst pipe.
Daaayachid
Not sure where you get your info from (cnn?) but I remember pretty clearly hearing on election night how some “pipe burst” delaying the count. Your statement is simply factually incorrect.“Fulton Commission Chairman Robb Pitts told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution on Tuesday evening that the pipe burst at 6:07 a.m. and was repaired within two hours. The burst pipe wasn’t mentioned by county officials during a 10 a.m. press conference.”
AJC
“At about 5:30 a.m., a pipe burst inside a room housing ballots at State Farm Arena, which has been used by county officials to process absentee ballots since October 19.
No ballots were damaged, but the leak prevented workers from tallying ballots for about four hours, delaying the count of 30,000 absentee ballots, according to Fox5 Atlanta.”
Forbes
Now let me guess – your source is Donald Trump.
TVOP -“Fact:at around 10:30pm election night, in a county in Georgia, there was reportedly some sort of pipe bust, poll watchers were told to go home as the counting would stop. Then this happened.”
Could be those Libs are correct when the pipe burst.
But the Fact is – they told everyone to go home and counting will continue in the morning.
Then they resumed counting a half hour to a hour later.
This is is Illegal, because you have to have poll watchers, if the watchers want to be there!Health – What you are saying is simply not fact.
It was legal!
Fact is, you are wrong.
The Republican officials in Georgia, Gov, Lt. Gov, Secy of State say that no election fraud occured.
I know this won’t change anything, but we really should listen to what Georgia themselves responded to this pipe burst claim.
Trump:”The election apparatus in Georgia is run by Democrats.”This claim is FALSE. It’s run by the Georgia Secretary of State, who is a Republican.
The Georgia Secretary of State’s website says, “The Elections Division of the Secretary of State’s Office organizes and oversees all election activity, including voter registration, municipal, state, county, and federal elections.”
The Georgia Secretary of State is Brad Raffensperger, who has been a Republican dating back at least to his time in the Georgia House of Representatives from 2015 to the start of 2019. In fact, Trump endorsed him on Twitter in November 2018 and Raffensperger assumed the position in January 2019.
Sources: Georgia SoS website, Georgia HoR website
Trump: “In Georgia there was a pipe burst – in a faraway location that was unrelated to the location of what was happening and they stopped counting for four hours.”
This claim is FALSE.
The pipe that burst in Georgia created a water leak that affected the room where absentee ballots were being tabulated. No ballots or equipment were damaged and repairs were completed in two hours.
Here’s a statement from Jessica Corbitt-Dominguez, director of external affairs for the Fulton County Government.
“At approximately 6:07 a.m. on November 3, the staff at State Farm Arena notified Fulton County Registration & Elections of a water leak affecting the room where absentee ballots were being tabulated. The State Farm Arena team acted swiftly to remediate the issue. Within 2 hours, repairs were complete. No ballots were damaged, nor was any equipment affected. There was a brief delay in tabulating absentee ballots while the repairs were being conducted.”
ENS -“It was legal!
Fact is, you are wrong”Why do you Keep posting Sheker?
Just because it’s in your SN?!?
My statement is the Law.
“This is is Illegal, because you have to have poll watchers, if the watchers want to be there!”You can’t get around it – if you do – it’s called Fraud!
From Justia law:
“Any infraction or irregularities observed by poll watchers shall be reported directly to the superintendent, not to the poll manager. The superintendent shall furnish a badge to each poll watcher bearing the words “Official Poll Watcher,” the name of the poll watcher, the primary or election in which the poll watcher shall serve, and either the precinct or tabulating center in which the poll watcher shall serve or a statement that such poll watcher is a state-wide poll watcher. The poll watcher shall wear such badge at all times while serving as a poll watcher.”Sorry Health – you stating something as fact is meaningless. Show us the evidence.
As to all the affidavits… If the lawyers won’t bring them to court and when they do they get tossed out (by Judges appointed by Trump or others) my assumption is that we can safely assume any affidavit you have is worthless or a misrepresentation.
How many times do you get to lie and tossed out of court before the onus is on you to make the case, not someone else to show how you are wrong.
As to another commenter here who was upset that someone suggested that support for Trump was the overriding theme in making fraud claims and suggested it goes both ways. I will just repeat what I said above. Trump has lost about 40 lawsuits now. Has had numerous affidavits rejected. There comes a point where objectively it seems safe to say that one side is simply lying and the other side is perhaps telling the truth. As to why anyone would lie, well it is obvious that in this case it is support for Trump.
daasyochid
seems i misunderstood you, i thought you were saying the pipe burst nov 4 607am, and so it couldnt have possibly be used as an excuse to send the watchers home.
Now let me rephrase, according to sworn testimony, at around 10:30pm, poll watchers were told the counting was going to stop due to that pipe burst. the video does show the watchers leaving shortly afterward. the video also show a few people, after the watchers leave, springing into action, putting away ballots that were already out, ready to be counted, and taking out the suspicious ballots in question. does seem strange that the excuse used would be the pipe burst, but hey, they needed something…sorry for the misunderstanding…A forensic audit of one single machine in ware county, georgia revealed 37 votes flipped from biden to trump. A judge in Michigan granted the trump team access to 22 machines, in a county where one machine had “glitched”(some tried claiming human error in that case) ,to conduct a forensic audit. Results expected within 48 hours.
A forensic audit of one single machine in ware county, georgia revealed 37 votes flipped from biden to trump
Someone tweeted that. Is it true?
ratiinal, look at the website fivethirtyeight known for its statistical analysis which accepts Biden as the winner.
rational
“One good article is by The Federalist titled “5 More Ways Joe Biden Magically Outperformed Election Norms”.”
It isn’t a good article it is fluff disguised by fancy wording
Lets start with their first “anomaly ”
“Candidate Joe Biden was so effective at animating voters in 2020 that he received a record number of votes, more than 15 million more than Barack Obama received in his re-election of 2012.”
Now this is true. But Trump also got millions more votes than Obama did in 2013 6 or so million more. Obama was far more popular nationally in 2012 than Trump is in 2020. SO unless you are arguing that the fraud gave millions of extra votes to both candidates but more to Biden than Trump this argument doesn’t make any sense.
Trump won the 2nd most votes from any candidate in history, sadly his opponent got even more. But that shouldn’t be surprising .Nationally Biden was ahead in (nearly) EVERY poll. As many votes as you’d expect Trump to get, you’d Expect Biden to get more (of course the nationa lvote isnt wha matters but that is what this example discusses)
As to WHY there were so many voters this year , thats a fair discussion population growth? Ease of voting by mail? After decades of being told “This is the most important election in our lives “people believed it? Hatred of Trump ? Hatred of AOC? Love of Trump? Any combination of the above.
But any argument that alleges fraud because Biden got more votes than Obama has to explain how Trump pulled the same feat.
Their second argument
“Biden is set to become the first president in 60 years to lose the states of Ohio and Florida on his way to election”These kind of “rules” are silly. things change. There have been only 46 presidents elected in the US history . see xkcd’s excellent cartoon entitled “electoral precedent” wit h a fellow making his predictions 1788 “no candidate has ever been elected”
1792 “no incumbent has ever been elected”
…
2000 “No republican has won without Vermont ”
2012 ” No democrat can win without Missouri”rational
part 2
Their third point ““Biden underperformed Hillary Clinton in every major metro area around the country, save for Milwaukee, Detroit, Atlanta and Philadelphia.””
Has since been retractedTheir fourth point
“Biden Won Despite Democrat Losses Everywhere Else”Not sure why this indicates fraud Biden might be stuck with a Republican Senate. If your cheating just go all the way and grab a few senate seats. Why cheat half way?
Fifth
“Biden Overcame Trump’s Commanding Primary Vote”What primary? Against Joe Walsh? Against Rocky De Le fuente? Sure Trump has a small vocal fired up base that likes him. noone denied that. not sure the relevance
So to sum up out of their 5 points
#3 isnt true (as they concede)
#5 & #2 are meaningless and silly
#1 is true for both Biden AND Trump
# 4 is arguably “proof” that he DIDN’t cheatUbiq -“But any argument that alleges fraud because Biden got more votes than Obama has to explain how Trump pulled the same feat”
Another Absurd Post from a Lib!
Trump got more votes because the Country saw what Obama did for 8 years.
Did the Country actually think Biden could do a better job than Obama?!?Health
Your’e confused. this comment “Trump got more votes because the Country saw what Obama did for 8 years.” doesn’t make sense Trump isnt running against 2012 OBama
LEt’s back up
The argument is in a sense How could 2020 Biden have beaten 2012 Obama. That Biden beat Trump (nationally) isn’t really surprising, and isnt the argument in point 1, after all he was up in almost every poll. IF it is so hard to believe Biden beating Trump nationally, the argument would have been THAT.What is surprising is that more people voted for Biden than Obama in 2012 (and I grant it is surprising)
In other words we would expect Obama to have most votes then Biden then Trump (and undoubtedly thats how most American’s would vote today) . That Biden beat Obama is the surprise. so Biden must have cheated THIS is the argument in point 1.
With me?
BUT Trump beat Obama too. So to square this you need to take one of several options
1) There was something different about this election that led to more turnout so Both Biden and Trump got more votes than the far more popular Obama (possibilities for this listed above)
2) Biden cheated and Trump cheated but Biden cheated more
3) Biden cheated but was worried that people would say “how could you have gotten more votes than Obama?” So he also cheated giving Trump more votes than Obama so that intelligent people couldnt argue “How did biden beat OBama” If Trump did too. Strangely people are ignoring the fact that Trump beat Obama and saying “how could Biden beat Obama” anywayUbiq -“Strangely people are ignoring the fact that Trump beat Obama and saying “how could Biden beat Obama” anyway”
The reason why Trump beat Obama is because Obama let the flood gates open to this country (more pop.)
The only way Biden could beat Trump is with Cheating!
Trump closed the gates and there is a Pandemic.
The DemonCrats took advantage of the Pandemic to allow unprecedented Mail – in Ballots. (More than usual.)
This gave an opportunity to have even more Fraud, besides the usual types of Fraud!Health – You seem to admit some reasons why Biden (and Trump) received more votes than unusual (i.e. mail-ins). So you lost on that part of the Federalist’s argument. The question then becomes one of fraud, which many rational posts break down for you is unlikely, if you take the time to review them truthfully. By your responses to Ubiq, you’re more interested in your conclusion than the emes. All polls showed Biden as winning so you can’t ignore that. By the way, it seems Trump’s former supporters in the suburbs turned on him. That explains the urban-suburban “anomoly.” And the fact that republicans overwelmingly won in the suburbs further shows that they specifically voted against Trump but still favor republicans over democrats. Your proof that Biden cheated is “The only way Biden could beat Trump is with Cheating.” Circular argument. I haven’t seen any compelling facts so far from pro-Trump camp so I vote the winner thus far is there was no fraud. And please don’t try to take away my vote 🙂
Health
“The reason why Trump beat Obama is because Obama let the flood gates open to this country (more pop.)”
I dont follow wouldn’t that more population viote for Biden? Maybe thats How he won!
At least try to sort of make sense sense in your nonsense“The only way Biden could beat Trump is with Cheating!”
So stick to that prove that ignore all the polls that has Biden ahead, and prove he couldnt win with cheating that is the task of this thread.
I know you think repeating things over and over with exclamation points is proof. But it just isn’tAll I am replying to is one specific point. Namely the Fderalis comment that It is unlikely for Biden to have beaten Obama
Which his completely true. BUT it ignores the (more unlikely) fact that Trump “beat” Obama too. Can you provide any poll that showed Trump at a higher approval rating on election day than Obama on his?
Biden won more than votes than Obama because
1. In a country with a growing population like the US, we’d expect every election to have more voters before we look at turnout
2. Turnout was higher than usual, at 66%.
Er -“All polls showed Biden as winning so you can’t ignore that. By the way, it seems Trump’s former supporters in the suburbs turned on him.”
Where did you get from – the Fake News Media?
The so-called polls prior to the Election, were more off than usual!Ubiq -“fact that Trump “beat” Obama too. Can you provide any poll that showed Trump at a higher approval rating on election day than Obama on his?”
Polls are meaningless in this Country.
I’ll repeat – Trump won the election because in the swing States – they rejected the Democrats policy that Obama had.
Hillary and Joe were part & parcel of that Policy.
Obama grew the country, but Trump was against that. And with the Pandemic the USA wasn’t so much more populated.
So anyone with Logic will tell you – it doesn’t make sense that Biden had more votes than Hillary.
He only got more than anyone because of Rampant Fraud!Health, the fake one is you, one who faults with their own faults as your president. If someone is so smart as he thinks, does not have to force out and fire his best advisors who disagree with him.
I thought this was a “Fact Only Wiki”, yet we have someone persisting with a statement to the effect that if Biden won it had to be cheating as he does not believe it is possible otherwise. That is called opinion. If you have facts to show why Biden did not get more votes, show them. Some cherry-picked and questionable statistics are also not facts. By that standard if Biden did not get more votes than Trump it would be an indication of fraud as in 6 of the prior 7 elections, Democrats got more votes than Republicans.
Health
“I’ll repeat …”
Yes I know you’ll repeat thats your specialty. Please provide proof of some kind
“Polls are meaningless in this Country.”
national polls were amazingly accurate both in in 2016 and 2020“Obama grew the country, but Trump was against that. And with the Pandemic the USA wasn’t so much more populated.”
So I have this straight: You are sying that Obama “let the flood gates open to this country” increasing the population but this increased population couldn’t vote for Biden becasue they died in the pandemic?
I will try to post withinin the parameters of Rational Jews’s initial post. I would appreciate if you could please address these points/questions:
1. As someone suggested, we are not experts on each incident. So one way of assessing fraud allegations is to look at what the experts have to say.
a. William Barr, a Trump appointee and loyalist says he didn’t see any widespread fraud that would change the outcome. If you are adamant that this is false, what is your reaon for giving him zero credence?
b. Similary, Trump had appointed an official to oversee fraud issues and he stated that this year’s election was the safest we’ve seen. His team had apparently worked with the states to ensure nothing would be compromised. He lost his job a day after saying this. Similarly, why are we dismiss his statement out of hand?
c. 40 or so court cases were brought alleging allegations. It would be prudent for us to actually examine some of these before insisting they were wrong. I have read a couple of instances where Trump’s lawyers backed down and acknowledged there was no fraud (in Pennsylvania, but I don’t have the specifics). Are you saying all the judges in each case were corrupt and unfairly dismissed the allegations?2. To prevail in court, we have to bring proof. It can be in the form of direct evidence (i.e. video tape) or circumstantial evidence (a broken cookie jar + your child has cookie crumbs in his pocket). An allegation that did receive much attnetion here is the “pipe burst” incident in Georgia. This would amout to direct evidence. Yes, someone narrated her take on what was occuring in the video. I have seen another explantion: the count was suspended to fix the leak, and they were able to resume the count soonafter. The video shows them setting up again and resuming. Is this explantion wrong? Becasue the only retort I saw on this thread was that they aren’t allowed to bar poll watchers. Did they ban poll watchers here? If they were absent, is there a legal obligation to seek them out before resuming? I’ve also read that the procedure even without poll watchers is to make sure democrates and republicans are both present in the counting. Can someone verify or educate on this, how it works, and how we make sure counting isn;’t compromised?
3. Finally, and importantly: if hypothetically a candidtate WERE to baselessly allege fraud just to thwart the election, how for all practical purposes might that situation appear different than the case at hand? Might we assume that the hypothetical trouble-maker would get several hundred supporters to go out and sign affidavits (which wouldn’t hold up in court), spread various misinformration, and direct supporters to specific websites who would peddle his lies? If you are genuinely concerned about election integrity, it would seem fair for you to acknowledge that one would have reason to be skeptical about the claims of fraud. I say this because it’s wrong to assume we are dismissing the allegations merely because we don’t like Trump. The fact that I haven’t seen this acknolegement so far is what has led me to conclude that most people are singularly focused on supporting Trump, not because of genuine concern about security. Could somebody please explain why you are so convinced by any particular allegation that you can’t give benefit of doubt to any skeptic?
RE -“If someone is so smart as he thinks, does not have to force out and fire his best advisors who disagree with him.”
He didn’t Fire Rudy.
If a Lib like you, calls them “his best advisors who disagree with him;” he’d be a Fool Not to Fire Them!Health, look what he is doing in the Pentagon. Rudy is his lapdog following all his orders. He pushed out General Mattis. A smart person is not afraid to listen to an opposing view but Trump has an inferiority cimplex. The greatness of Biden will be having good advisors.
Health: Re: “Where did you get from – the Fake News Media?”
Greetings. I will be glad to answer and even educate a little if you would first please kindly see what I wrote, marked 11:29 last night, and then please provide some thoughtful responses to my questions. Though I’d like to hear others’ comments too, this is like a one-last-chance in my mind to see if you can bring yourself to a modicum of balance and critical thinking. It’s an opprtunity for you to shine some much needed emes in our broken world, rather than playing the role of just another broad-swooping activist with the circular reasoning and unsubstanitated speghetti-at-the-wall consipracy theories. I’m not asking you to agree, just to acknowledge and address some basic points of fact. Thanks.To all the Libs here:
You had your few weeks of Dreamland, Now it’s time for Reality!The Texas AG just filed with the SCOTUS about 4 States changing their election rules during a Pandemic.
Hopefully Rudy & S. Powell will also join the Suit!
And what will happen to Joe?
I know a few Nursing Homes!Joe is eloquent in his speech but Trump rambles, so he belongs in the nursing home not Joe.
To all the Cons here:
Representatives from PA just had their case to overturn the election rejected by SCOUS. Somehow I doubt that Texas or Rudy trying to go to the Supreme Court will work any better (unless your goal is to also lose in the Supreme Court).
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