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What defines Jewish music?
If a jewish singer sings a dirty song (c”v), is it jewish? If a non- jewish sings the words “love your friend like yourself”, is that jewish? What about if a Jewish singer turns a tune from a terrible goyish song and puts jewish words to it- is that a Jewish song- or is that a bizayon? What about non- frum Israeli singers?
I just kinda want to know what people think about this.I have noticed that most Jewish music is very similar to the music that non-Jews create in the same time and place.
If a frum yid hums “oy yoy yoy” to a melody he composes in his mind, that is “Jewish music”. Obviously, there is no singular definition since virtually all of the top “Jewish Singers” have willingly adopted goiyeshe nigunim in their “Jewish music” just as goyim have taken the words of torah and adopted it into X’ian music.
Sadly in today’s generation Charliehall above is correct and most music that is sung today by Jewish singers is actually pure goyish music that comes straight from the goyim with the composer just changing the words into Jewish words.
And personally it’s very sad how low klal yisroel has stooped cause this music of today’s generation with a goyish taam really affects a person’s neshama, ruchnius and closeness with Hashem.
May we all go back to pure simple Jewish music with a Jewish taam and kedusha
Charlie, I once read a claim by a musicologist that the Gregorian chants were taken from the tunes the Levites used in the Beit haMikdash, which are true Jewish music. In any case, Rav Moshe says that modern dress cannot be classified as Jewish or non-Jewish as they are made for everyone. Probably the same can be said for tunes. What matters is the words.
Shmil. even if the words are a translation of some verse in the Torah if there is a secular intent I would not classify it as Jewish. Similarly, someone who writes a name of Hashem with a secular intent does not write a shem kadosh. There is a joke about a boy and girl who meet fr a shidduch. The girl says “My name is Batka”. The boy says “Mine is Kelikaku”.
Any tune/song/lyric preferred by a committed jew, is a jewish as music can be. (It is an art = culture, which is a different symbolism than religion.)
Last night and this morning, I’ve googled the search term “Jewish Music” under the video search category and each time there was a different “unsponsored” listing. The top example of the genre a few minutes ago was Benny Friedman singing the Peter Paul and Mary version “Don’t let the Lights go Out”. I rest my case.
FFB people aren’t privileged with musical theory classes that teach people how to write nigunim.
KGN
just because FFB people aren’t educated in making songs for singers that doesn’t give them a right to copy songs straight from the goyim with a goyish taam and effect the yiddishkeit and kedusha of klal yisroel of millions of people with holy neshamos.
Dear Sam,
“and affect the yiddishkeit and kedusha of klal yisrael”
Not one bit true.
Years ago I shared here that there was one category of Jewish music that had no parallel in goyish music: The atonal serial music of Arnold Schoenberg.
Schoenberg actually composed a setting of Kol Nidre — commissioned by a Reform Rabbi — but it is unsuitable for use in our shuls as it uses musical instruments (including an organ). And interestingly it is not atonal even though it was written in the late 1930s.
This is a very large and broad topic. Just a couple of points:
It is said that certain “groise rebbes” from the “frierdike doires” stole/borrowed/adapted peasant bar songs for use in Tefilah etc., and that surely was OK, so the source of the nigun is not necessarily an issue, dependent on subsequent “kavonois” and the greatness or lack thereof of the mechaber.
Also, some of our recent great composers who composed and/or performed some undeniably great Jewish music also borrowed from the goyim (MBD’s Yidden and Piamenta’s Asher Boro come to mind), and those songs were wildly popular with the Yeshivishe velt for years. So “Jewish” music is a pretty nebulous topic.any goyish song with jewish words is a goyish song its naive to think words make such a diffrence of course a treif song is treif but its what thoughts the composer puts in to the music when he writes it not the words that define jewish not jewish
Dear Frum,
“Very large and broad”or, “nebulous”? I think the whole discussion is fictitious. Nobody ever demonstrated a hint of a parameter for what can be called jewish music. The only point ever made, is that these things change with time. I consider just about every song out there, to be (potentially) tomorrow’s jewish music.To Sam Klein. I am criticizing them in a constructive way. The Jewish community needs to seriously consider teaching musical theory. I learned it, and it has help me not steal Goyish niggunim for a Jewish-lyric song. FFB people need to learn music if they are taka going to play!
2 points. as other people have pointed on ywn, i hear lsheim rav moshe wolfson that the rebbes and the older tzadikkim had the ability to make a niggun kadosh even when its source was tamei. nowadays we do not have these kochos. the second thing is that music is a reflection of its times and of the hashkafos of the people behind it. music thats coming from a society of being vild and hefker is obviously going to have a negative hashpa on a person, even if a frum guy put non-offensive words to it. and also the music back then was nowhere near as disgusting as it is today. people had a certain standard, today anything flies and the music in general is repulsive. and remember that music has a tremendous koach, some were able to get nevua through music and rashi even says about acher that he went off because of zemer yevani. do you really want to listen to music that’s rooted in such filth? a guy takes a song talking about unspeakable things and puts some jewish words to it and that all of a sudden makes it jewish music?
Idea:
A set of notes at given time intervals has inherent positive/negative qualities.
If true, there is no way to change the quality.vs
Idea:
A set of notes at given time intervals has positive/negative qualities
based on who wrote it, regardless of the actual notes and intervals.
If true, someone can later rewrite it the same way and take over.(I left lyrics out of it.)
Also, can we please uncouple the idea of morally/spiritually
good and bad music with whether the music is “Jewish?”Who says “Jewish music” is a real concept, anyway?
Dear Random,
“Also, can we please uncouple the idea of morally/spiritually
good and bad music with whether the music is “Jewish?”I did, see above.
Jewish music is spiritual music with feeling in the song and tune it comes with a feeling of chizzuk as you sing and feel stronger the longer you sing and dance to it etc….
If the OP’s last name is actually Ungar and he happens to make parnassa with the Malchus Chior, please let me say your zemer “Nafshi” is a real geshmak to my family every week Shabbos.
it’s impossible to uncouple it because music is such a powerful thing. rashi says that acher went off the derech because of zemer yavani, and there were leviim that were able to get nevua through music. music is an inherently spiritual thing and we should be careful about what we listen to because we don’t know what kind of effects it could have on us
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