Dear YWN readers,
As a nation constantly in pursuit of chesed, I have a proposal that is both simple, and has far reaching positive consequences.
As is well known there is a dearth of young people in many, once thriving Jewish communities across North America. Their schools are becoming economically unviable as the enrollment drops, the bulk of tuition falls on the few “Town Tycoons” . Their future is bleak and the communities recognize the threat to their survival.
We also have an issue of MANY able bodied young people desperately seeking livelihoods especially in the present economy. Their credentials are nonexistent as they lack experience or education. The present day yeshiva climate, reason not withstanding, doesn’t prepare them for the work force. The result is unemployable young men most of whom have the capabilities and determination to succeed, given the chance.
Baruch Hashem we have many successful businessmen in our communities, who run a large spectrum of various industries, some almost Fortune 500. I propose a database run by an organization such as Agudah etc. which lists all the job offerings committed by our businessmen, especially for our burgeoning young men. Whether it is entry level or require elemental training is regardless, since the point being giving these families an entrance to the workplace.
This would be especially beneficial in communities that lack young people but have the resources to provide good job opportunities. It must be said however, that the compensation for employing these avreichim are in a macroeconomic sense beneficial to the employers upon whom the bulk of fiscal responsibilities such as supporting chesed organizations (such as Tomche Shabbos) and mosdos lie, and would be relieved to a great extent.
In essence it is arvus to a great level. As the proverb goes, give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish feed him for life (chochma b’goyim taamin). The opportunity and infrastructure exist to implement this idea. Unfortunately, I don’t have the capabilities, so I call upon someone to step up and spearhead this concept.
It should be noted that I approached one of our leading askanim/tycoons/philanthropists/who replied “I don’t like hiring Yidden they all think they should be and will be in my seat or at least my partner”. Beside the halachic aspect of hiring a goy OVER a yid (all things equal) , I think he and all those many like-minded can take mussar from companies such as B&H etc. that have thrived and grown despite or perhaps because of their hiring policies.
Signed,
A regular baal haabos.
————
NOTE: Yeshivaworld welcomes your “Out Of The Mailbag” letters & comments. Letters may be edited or shortened for clarity. Submit all letters by clicking HERE – titled “Mailbag”.
The views expressed in this column reflect the opinions of the individual writers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Yeshiva World News LLC. These individual opinions are also in no way meant as a P’sak Halacha or Hashkafa. As with all matters, be sure to consult with a Rov with all questions.
Join the official YWN WhatsApp status
65 Responses
And they should pay a living salary
great idea.
I can’t imagine that these able-bodied workers can command a salary high enough to entice them to go work. These men in the “present day yeshiva” “earn” far more by sitting and collecting all the entitlements available.
I actually know of a story where one such unskilled person was offered a $50,000 a year job fresh out of the B”M. He turned it down after finding out that it wasn’t “off the books” because after paying tax he wouldn’t be left with any more money than he collects now in programs (which he would lose with such a salary). AND he’d have to work to get it! OY.
In large corporate style companies, there are many decision makers who must agree. Try telling your HR office to hire only yidden without subjecting yourself to a potential lawsuit.
>> And they should pay a living salary
>> Comment by emesvyatziv — May 20, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
I think that summarizes why this letter’s ideas will not fix the problem. The average job will not provide a living wage for a yiddishe family. With tuition, yomim tovim and kosher food prices etc, not to mention making simchas and marrying off/supporting kids, a typical salary does not cover the bills.
I think a better approach would be to have these successful businessmen mentor other members of our community in how start/run/finance a business of their own.
In addition, a frum venture capital fund may help in this end. It can invest in financing frum start-ups with the hope of making a profit. And even if they are not as profitable as a regular venture capital fund, at least the money is being used for a mitzvah – a win-win situation if one ever existed. And as the letter writer said, hopefully it will reduce the amount needed by tzedaka organizations by getting more people on solid financial footing.
what does the oilam think about this idea? Any chance it could actually work?
“Their credentials are nonexistent as they lack experience or education.”
“The present day yeshiva climate, reason not withstanding, doesn’t prepare them for the work force.”
“The result is unemployable young men…”
Why do they lack experience and education? Why don’t yeshivas prepare them for the work force? Why are they unemployable?
Instead of allowing and contributing to the persistence of this crisis and coming up with temporary and makeshift fixes, we would be better off concentrating on the sources of this probelm.
Wake up!! The heimish are lazy, I’ve tried many times to hire only frum and they simply don’t want to work unless the starting salary is 6 figures.
I had a secretary who never made it in before 11:00AM
I’ve offered sales job with a starting salary of $30K plus comm. is that so bad for someone with no experince? I think not, would they take it? NO
#6 you’re on the right track.
But the olem will have to start on the bottom to learn some basics, and that’s what no one wants to do.
No matter how expensive life is if the husband and wife have a job even with low pay, they can pay their bills.
squeak (#4),
please drop your sarcasm for a moment and realize this is a big problem. If someone is getting 50-60K between government programs, a kollel check and lets say some tutoring, and he is barely keeping his head above water, how in the world should he go take a 40K entry level job?
The Gemara says “Kol Sheaino Melamaid Benoi Umnus, Melamdoi Lustus” – there is nothing wrong with learning a skill. There should be more resources available (Al Taharas Hakodesh) to learn skills needed to make a proper living.
wake up to year 2008 where the money can be made a lot of ways without all the education that you need to become a lawyer doctor programmer etc. , of course it can get you a salary, but… if you could make money in other ways for example real estate,running a buisness etc. why waste years of your life to get an education , after all how many boro parkers are realy educated, and very well off financially, so a big part if this is lack of respect of people learning torah.
The letter writer’s idea is great in theory although, in practice, I’m not sure how well it would work. But, it’s a start and should be encouraged and, at the very least, allows people to get entry-level training as a step up to other positions. #6’s (Charlie Brown)’s idea of mentoring also has merit and can and should be done.
YW Editor – how about proving as part of your classifieds(the free section) a folder where those of us seeking employment can post our resumes?
so far no one explained whats wrong with the essential idea, just criticizing peripheral aspects
As someone who has been in the real estate industry for the past 10 years, in both management and ownership, on more than 1 occasion, when hiring yeshiva/kollel guys, i’ve been burned when they wanted to grow too quickly. In our community, everybody wants to be an “oisher” It pains me to say it, but from my experience the guys are afraid of the hard work it takes to get there. Now, if we would offer vocational training then we may have something to consider.
What a loaded letter! I don’t think that it is possible to tackle all the complicated issues here. Firstly, all the points about hiring yidden are true. Yes, they think that the entry job is the Company President. Yes, they expect (and need!) a high salary. And yes, they are hesitant to work when they can make more on programs. Having said all of that, I have made it a point since my business started 10 years ago to ONLY hire frum baalei mishpacha in the field and frum nashim tzidkaniyos in the office. I have always felt & see all the time that Hashem gives some unusual Siyata Dishmaya because of that. Oh yes, we do have to pay more & frankly put up with some serious aggravation! We consider it part of doing Chesed without making an exact cheshbon. The same way donations of goods and funds are made to the needy without an exact cheshbon. There can be no question that Hashem acts middah k’neged middah. He does not make exact cheshbonos with us either. I recommend that as a partial solution. Think of how good you will feel that the people you employ can now afford things on their own. This might be a partial solution. Not to think into it that much!
Now, we can try to address the other issues a little. What are the thousands of mesivta boys(kein yirbu) supposed to do in a couple of years when they get married and have to support families? They are taking no English courses (at least in Lakewood) and can not read and write English above third grade level! The only thing they can do is flip real estate. Unfortunately, that is not a viable option these days. How are they to make an HONEST living? How many of the boys are actually putting in all those hours of solid learning when they are 14 years old without burning out when they are 18? Why not be serious about some form of English, business math, computers, finance, accounting etc. I’m not even getting into the Biology, Trigonometery, Chemistry and more that we had to take in yeshiva. I can tell you that many of todays Roshei Yeshiva & maggidei shiurim were the BEST students in English and took EVERYTHING they did seriously. It did not do anything negative to them. The vast majority of bochurim who got married and had to go out and make a parnassah after Kollel were literate! Today, it really isn’t that way. It is beginning to hit us now when many parents just have enough to get by on their own. How can they even think of supporting all their children without totally going into debt and mortgaging their retirement? What do u do when the standard to marry off your daughter is $50,000 (yes, you read correctly) and there’s no one to pay for it other than credit cards? Something is wrong here. There is a train coming and we are looking the other way. Please, lets have some serious dialogue about this. Thanks for reading.
I try hiring bnei yeshiva and recently I got burned fromhim. NOt so much from his disresect but that he was so greasy to keep his chavrusa till mincha and almonst cost me a big client because he couldnt finish the job by erev shabbas. I warned him to start earlier but now hes out of a job. I could use good salespeople but yidden come from princes and prophets and its hard for them to accept such a lowly position despite the respectable parnassa. If you can sell yourself then it doesnt matter if the job is comm only. What matters is if the salesperson, the company and the client can grow and thrive long term. Most of the guys I hired dont think long term- maybe I lack an eye for talent.
chesedname (#8 and #9),
Its not always laziness that prevents people from starting from the ground up. Its the fact that a starting salary won’t put food on the table for a frum family with kids. The 30K salary plus commision you were offering may very well be a very fair offer on your part but how can a family live on that? That doesn’t mean you’re offering too little for that job, it just means that yiddishe families cannot live on a typical salary.
Furthermore, I disagree with you completely on what you said that “No matter how expensive life is if the husband and wife have a job even with low pay, they can pay their bills.” That is soooo not true. get your head out of the sand (or maybe better yet out of your ivory tower). If a husband and wife earn 100K between them and they spend 2,000 per month on rent, plus tuition, plus babysitting, plus food and clothing for a family etc it is almost impossible or pehaps indeed impossible to survive even if they do not spend a penny on luxuries. Then along comes a car repair and yom tov expenses and that can be the straw that breaks the camels back.
Don’t be so quick to assume people are just too lazy to make a living.
Oh, and about your secretary who never made it in before 11 AM, how do the actions of one person cause you to decide that all “The heimish are lazy”?
And did you ever show concern for her situation and ask if there was a valid reason other than laziness which caused her to be late (such as vomiting all morning due to morning sickness for example) or did you just yell at her and fire her?
I know many very well educated people with no mazel to Parnassah, and many uneducated individuals with a great mazel for parnassah, let’s not forget to factor in that the key to parnassah is totally in Hashem’s hands (as are the keys to children & rain). I,myself, have no more than a 12th grade education, and am earning a 6 figure income, and some of my children who’ve had even less of an education are raking in the millions, bli ayin hora. My cousing with two master’s degrees has never been able to land a reasonable job. We have to be mispallel to be zoicheh to parnassah.
mdlevine(#14),
how does one prove a folder? 😉
but seriously, I hope you find a great job very soon.
there are listings here, but the jobs and the prospects are weak. In addition to the salary mismatch, and the expectations. The jobs I can provide require a university degree, a certain professionalism. Even the frum kids with the above would take itfor a start and then just leave or start their own business because they are driven-only the big firms can handle this
#12: How many “boro parkers” are uneducated and not financially well off? You’re sadly mistaken if you think the majority of “boro parkers” are well off.
Agudah received much federal funding for this type of project.
COJO of Boro Park used to run an effective program like this. (I don’t know if COJO of Flatbush does.)
I now have a son in the high-school scene, and the boys don’t even learn how to write an English sentence. Why are we contributing to the complete lack of any education for our boys? Some of these boys are actually going to have to earn a living one day, and we are really just making it more difficult for them.When did it become more religious to keep our boys as uneducated as possible?
#6
The brooklyn sephardic community has a an organization which does just that. Its called “Sephardic Angel Fund” sephardicangelfund.org
The real problem is that many people dont want to work because they would rather be lazy and have no expectations. For most people who want to work, there is a job that pays a decent salary out there.
Check out the angel fund site though if you want to get some ideas on starting a similar organization of your own. They are highly successful.
Charlie Brown: thanks for the brocho! (and thanks for note to proof my posts prior to submission).
torahis 1, (#15) I hope you can truly live up to your screen name.
College is not the place to send our precious husbands and sons. I “have been there, done that” and I can personally attest to the disgusting atmosphere that pervades the college both within the class and the obligatory social needs that follow (ie. graduation, pre-conferences etc.).
The professors (generally)are low-life people who have the degrees. I can remember numerous instances when a prof. told outright lies to her immediate superior-in front of the entire class! Another solution must be realized, before we resort to sending our boys out.
thanks #27.
A journey of a thousand miles, begins with one step.
All those people who say “What’s $30,000 going to do for me?” are just plain and simple lazy & shortsighted. Do you think your first job will land you 50 or 60 thousand a year? What it will do for you is provide you with that first step, that first real job for your resume.
As far as taxes go, all you people with “off the books” jobs, are you preparing yourself for your retirement (assuming you’ll have a job to retire from)? Social Security may not be much but picture yourself at 75 years old and all your friends are going to the bank to cash their checks, which probably is enough to put food on their table, and you are just wishing you had checks arriving in the mail. “Soif ma’aseh b’machshovo t’chila.”
Unfortunately we live in a culture of taking without giving. Government programs, support from the shver, etc. People are getting used to getting something for nothing. Then when it comes time to go out there and actually work 8 or 10 hours a day (or 12+ in some cases), there is no motivation and just serious laziness and the “it’s not fair” atitude.
We say in bentching, “V’lo liday matnas bosor v’dom.” We ask HaShem to make us SELF SUFFICIENT. Well, we have to practice what we preach (pray) and be proactive in that endeavor.
If you are looking for a job call PCS. 718 436-1900. they can help…
The key word in most of these discussions is Starting salary”. Where to do you expect to start, at the top? You have to work your way to the top. What you need is experience and in many cases an education.
However, these “yungerleit” are being told that an education is not permissible.
My son is a Doctor and also learns as well as most yungerleit. Torah im derech eretz is possible, eventhough, it s discouraged. What a shame!!!
Hi its I the author.Many of you have absolutely no inkling of the difficulties in finding ANY sort jobs. Be it well paying or not (short of flipping burgers).Perhaps most of you belong to some dynasties with whom your careers are assured.
Perhaps any of you hypocrites who feel that yeshiva students are lazy and incapable, should post a help wanted sign “entry level 30k” in your local kollel (inc. Lakewood) and see how many applicants you get.
I’m appalled at the undertones that present US as
an orthodox beach bum club. I wish any of you would visit Whartons and see the frat houses etc look like.
In contrast our uneducated youth look like Tibetan monks and yet its these party animals albeit educated ones whom you look to entrust your company to.I acquiesce that education is important , just dont disparage us and imply that we’re lazy
or untrusworthy etc. (Remember these are YOUR children we’re discussing.)
I was unaware the Sephardic community already initiated this idea and I applaud our brethran .However I’m certain the Ashkanazi community especially the yeshivishe is unawares. For the record This does not exist in any of our organizations as for goverment funding, I dont have a notion of their criterion.
As for the discrimination again I’m no J.D. but I recall the CEO of Jetblue, a devout Mormon, hiring his fellow Mormon women.It was heralded as a revolutionary concept at adapting the work at home mom to the workforce(as thy work from home!).
Thanks for your time
a regular yeshivishe baal haabos
30k isnt alot but its a starting point.
Kids learn aleph bais before they learn brisker rovs
To theregularbaalhaabos letter writer…#35..
I really do feel for you and I hope that if you do not have a job that you find one soon. However, just from reading your post, I think that my post in #18 is making sense. Really, with all due respect, (I do not even know how to say this)…If you wrote your resume in the same Chinese as the post, I’d have a hard time hiring you. Precisely my point that I tried to make in #18. Unless you are going to flip burgers or you are lucky enough to flip real estate, you need to learn the language of the land to give yourself a much better selection of jobs. Hatzlacha & thanks for bringing up a vital topic.
To #36…I’m not so sure about that! Kids are learning Brisker Rovs today before the aleph bais of learning!!!
The problem, in my opinion, is a combanation of most of these letters. While parnassa is in the hands of the Rebonon Shel Olam, so is healing yet no one would sugest that a person should do nothing when they are sick. Bais Chaya Rochel seminary in Gateshead has mandatory vocational classes besides the lemudai Kodesh classes. The classes offered are things that can usually bedone part time or full time. Perhaps are boys yeshivas can also offer such things.
Another problem is that many boys feel that they are b’nai Torah therefore they can’t dirty their hands. Why is it that you might find Chassidish young men driving trucks but you will almost never find a Yeshivish young man doing any physical labor? Perhaps we have to teach our boys that shlepping wouldn’t kill them.
As for work ethics, most frum people are honest but I have had my customer list taken by frum workers right before they left. This never happened to me when non-frum workers left to open their own business. Perhaps when we teach our boys and girls the importance of learning Torah, we could teach them that religion means during business hours as well.
That all said, as with everything, you have to do your hishtadlus then daven to the One Above.
#20 Charlie,
chesedname (#8 and #9),
Its not always laziness that prevents people from starting from the ground up. Its the fact that a starting salary won’t put food on the table for a frum family with kids. The 30K salary plus commision you were offering may very well be a very fair offer on your part but how can a family live on that? That doesn’t mean you’re offering too little for that job, it just means that yiddishe families cannot live on a typical salary.
Furthermore, I disagree with you completely on what you said that “No matter how expensive life is if the husband and wife have a job even with low pay, they can pay their bills.” That is soooo not true. get your head out of the sand (or maybe better yet out of your ivory tower). If a husband and wife earn 100K between them and they spend 2,000 per month on rent, plus tuition, plus babysitting, plus food and clothing for a family etc it is almost impossible or pehaps indeed impossible to survive even if they do not spend a penny on luxuries. Then along comes a car repair and yom tov expenses and that can be the straw that breaks the camels back.
I TYPED QUICKLY I MEANT TO SAY IF THE HUSBAND AND WIFE WORKS $30K PLUS HER SALARY IS ENOUGH FOR A “NEWLYWED”, OR THE FIRST FEW YEARS NO TUTION, NO HOUSE, NO YOMTOV FOOD (STILL GOING TO PARENTS) AND NO KIDS THE FIRST YEAR ETC..
Don’t be so quick to assume people are just too lazy to make a living.
I’M NOT ASSUMING I’VE HAD TOO MANY FRUM PEOPLE COME AND GO IN MY COMPANY THEY’RE LAZY AND WANT 2 OR 3 TIMES WHAT THEY’RE WORTH/GOING SALARY.
JUST AS AN EXAMPLE I HAD A LADY COEM AND WOULD’NT EVEN TAKE A JOB WITH A STARTING SALARY LESS THEN 25/HR THAT’S $50K A YEAR A YEAR LATER WHEN I HAD AN AD AGAIN SHE RESPONDED AND DIDN’T WORK A WHOLE YEAR, AND STILL WOULDN’T TAKE THE JOB FOR LESS THEN $50K I ASKED HOW DID YOU PAY YOUR BILLS THE LAST YEAR? CHARITY AND FORCING HER FAMILY TO HELP WETHER THEY HAD IT OR NOT? MAYBE SHE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN $30-$40K AND A YEAR LATER WOULD HAVE BEEN MAKING $50K OR MORE!
Oh, and about your secretary who never made it in before 11 AM, how do the actions of one person cause you to decide that all “The heimish are lazy”?
SHE WAS JUST ONE EXAMPLE, I’VE SEEN TOO MANY! I ALSO KNOW MY FRIENDS ALL TELL ME THAT THEIR WIFE IS “LOOKING FOR A JOB” BUT THEY’RE REALLY NOT BECAUSE WHEN I INTERVIEW WOMEN THEY ALWAYS FIND A PROBLEM, YOU’RE TOO FAR, TOO MANY HOURS (IT’S 9-5) FRIDAY IS A PROBLEM, THE PAY IS A PROBLEM ETC.. WHEN THEY COME HOME AND THE HUSBAND ASKS HOW WAS THE INTERVIEW OH IT WASN’T FOR ME OR SOME OTHER STORY AND HE THINKS SHE’S REALLY LOOKING AND TRYING TO HELP.
And did you ever show concern for her situation and ask if there was a valid reason other than laziness which caused her to be late (such as vomiting all morning due to morning sickness for example) or did you just yell at her and fire her? YES I DID ASK, SHE SAID SHE NEVER REALLY HAD A JOB BEFORE AND HAD TO GET USED TO WAKING UP EARLY, SHE WAS NOT EXPECTING SO NO MORNING SICKNESS OTHER THEN BEING SICK OF A JOB WHEN DAD CAN ALWAYS PAY HER BILLS. I DON’T YELL AT WORKERS OR ANYONE FOR THAT MATTER.
Comment by charlie brown — May 20, 2008 @ 6:37 pm
SORRY FOR THE CAPS LOCK I WANTED YOU TO SEE WHAT YOU WROTE AND WHAT I RESPONDED TO
As a company executive, I’d like to offer some free advice to the many of you out there who are unemployed or have been layed off. Of course, we all recognize that Hashem runs the world – but you can tip the scales in your favor with a few easy steps:
1) Show up on time – ALL THE TIME!! Were you out late at a Chasuna, or up with a sick child? Sorry for your predicament, but I’ve got a business to run. My clients and the careers of my other employees can’t be put on hold on account of you. Excuses are like noses – everyone has one.
2) Shower every morning and use deodorant.
3) Brush your teeth at least 3 times a day and use mouthwash.
4) Men – If you were clean-shaven when you were hired, then shave every morning. If you had a beard, then stay neatly trimmed. Make a facial-hair decision and stick with it.
5) Always wear clothing that is neat, clean, and presentable. (Am I starting to sound like your mother? You should’ve listened to her!!)
6) Make an effort to learn other skills in the company, but don’t step on other employees’ toes – you’re much more valuable to me if you can do multiple tasks – and I’m many more times likely to give you a raise.
7) OLD WISDOM – The customer is always right.
NEW WISDOM – The customer may not always be right, but he should NEVER be treated as if he is wrong.
8) If you show one ounce less of respect and courtesy to my non-Jewish employees than to my Jewish ones, then your flight is soon departing.
9) I didn’t hire you to spend hours on the phone taking care of your personal business.
10) If you have an idea, a problem, or a complaint, please tell me about it. I am very approachable, and I value your input. But don’t gossip about it around the office.
I think that you should implement this idea yourself. ‘b’makom shein ish, histadel l’hios ish’ – you almost have an obligation to create this project on your own. start networking, find men who are willing to help you out, and men willing to work for you. You should be matzliach in all you do for klal yisrael.
For those afraid to send their precious husbands and sons to college, Chas ViShalom, there are options that you may not have considered, such as Touro College in NY and one or two other similar institutions, in and out of NY, which has gender-separate classes and mostly observant Jewish professors.
Not to mention he can still learn (or work) full-time during his college years.
I don’t see a legitimate reason why a Jewish kid should be denied a college education, assuming you want your kid to have one. That goes for girls, too, BTW.
If your hashkafa is that college is bitul Torah, or something like that, that’s your business; but don’t blame it on the outside world and strange professors.
Of course many uneducated ppl are rich, but that doesn’t guarantee thatYOU will have the same mazel as them. A person has to do his hishtadlus & if that involves getting an education then go for it.
btw u can make money even without a college degree. There are various courses being given in different areas of business. (for example the UJO – in Williamsburg has some open slots now if you want to learn new things)
41/zero tolerance:
are you kidding? yes, neatness cleanliness & organization are important but to tell ppl how often to shave or trim etc is taking it a bit too far. I mean, what if the employee is chassidish & doesn’t touch his beard at all? oh never mind. Judging by your name (zero tolerance) you probably wouldn’t tolerate a chassid either.
#44
before you state “facts” repeat what you wrote:
‘college grads make considerably more money than those w/o a degree’
nice to know.
it can definitely help – as I wrote in a previous post, but it’s still not a fact. many ppl with degrees invest a lot & have nothing out of it, while many almost illiterate ppl have mazel (siyatte dishmaya) & strike it rich in business.
#44/#15 – I was also taken aback by your comment about learning a Brisker Rav… Learning a B.Rav has much more value in “real” terms than a college degree if you are truly Machshiv Torah.
As a separate note, apart from the Torah sheboi, Shitas Halimud of Brisk sharpens the brain and this can also be helpful outside the Beis Hamedrash. Going to college may be “necessary” to get a job but it won’t necessarily make you smarter….
You could have made your recommendation about going to college without comparison to learning a Brisker Rav or any other Torah.
p.s. #44 – There are plenty of people who’s Yiddishkeit suffered becuase they went to college… Parnossa is Sakonas haGuf, going off the Derech is Sakonas haNefesh…. During WW2, Gedolim chose to face the germans YMS whihc was only Sakonas haGuf rather than the Russians which was Sakonas haNefesh
abi- i think this one is even better than the hamodia letter of his
Rav Gifter ZATZA”L would alaways demand of his talmidim that they know how to write and speak english.
He explained that when they leave the koslei hayeshiva the yungerleit represent Torah and if we can’t articulately teach or even to repeat a dvar Torah clearly it was a chilul Hashem!
Rav Gifter was of course known for his hasmada and lomdus and his masterful oratory skills that he had learned in school as a youngster that he channeled to help teach and uphold the dvar Hashem.
Did anyone ask a competent Rav what are the gedarim and what the definition of hishtadlus is?
As the proverb goes, give a man a fish you feed him for a day, teach him how to fish feed him for life (chochma b’goyim taamin). The opportunity and infrastructure exist to implement this idea.
Absolutely correct, and it is the fact that people DO NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE of these opportunities that lands them in the situations you are trying to rectify.
To #37
I apologize if I come across incoherent. Its my first blog attempt and I’m not as adept at expressing my opinions in this forum, as bloghounds such as yourself can.
I just find it inconsistent that you failed to critique the original post. Perhaps thats due to the switch of non de plume to YESHIVISHE baal haabos.
I do commend you on your hiring policy, but your diatribe against our system is incongruous. You fail to address that many of the gedolim don’t have a high school education. In many sectors of our community, a high education is unthinkable. In E’Y, even the mainstream Daati Leumi aren’t educated in the works of Chaucer,Kant., Euclid,Newton etc.
I think, if we take inventory of the most successful businessmen in our midst, we may find them to be inadequately educated, yet paradoxly successful, (particularly those who came to the American shore after WWII, many of whom still cant speak English).
I’m curious about your level of education, as it seemed to give you the opportunity to graciously employ your brethren. It may provide insight to many on the degree of emphasis that education should play.
P.S. Did it ever occur to you that successful real estate flipping demands resourcefulness, negotiation, math and marketing skills etc. It seems as your heavy-handness makes you neglect these aspects and to disregard our real estate flippers to a burger flipper analogy.(The economic downturn that hit them must have hit you as well to some extent.)
Again I reiterate the significance of a good education. However, to state as a prerequisite in our communities (besides the staggering cost) is reaching and unrealistic. I think my idea is a simple partial solution and should be implemented.
Signed the yeshivishe baal haabos
Reading all these posts are driving me nuts!! I cant beleive there is even a disscusion as to whether or not a person should attain a College degree. You loive in a country where luckily everyone has a fair shot in going to school, earning a degree and finding a respectable job. I finishied school at 23 in accounting. My first job paid $50,000 a year.Only after I was earning a living did I get married. Now I have been working 3 years and make 80,000. I think at my age thats respectable and I dont have to crawl on my hands and knees and beg my in-laws for money. And most important, my wife looks at me as a mature adult who vcan provide for his family.
The culture of blood suckers who are lazy, unmotivated, arrogant and ignorant must stop. I do put a lot of blame on the yeshivas for fostering such a philosophy.
A little hard work will take you a ling way.
nothing is owed to anybody.
#53 food for thought is he stealing from the goverment, because he didn’t send in the money? or the customer that paid for the item, as he was supposed to take it from the customer with the understanding it’s going to the goverment, if not maybe he stole from the customer not the goverment??
Just a question.
Don’t ask what’s the difference as there is one, and this is not the place for it.
To #55…My apologies to you if I came across as critical. I may have been out of line there. Again, I was not saying ANYTHING about college. I was just refering to a simple high school education. The ability to read and write english, to know some business math or accounting, to know that the five boros of New York ARE NOT Boro Park, Flatbush, Williamsburgh, Monsey, Monroe & Sea Gate!!! Are teenagers are not even getting that today. And for what reason? Of course there are roshei Yeshiva today that did not go to college. That is wonderful. However, I would love some on this site to try and take a wild guess at the percentage of the THOUSANDS of Mesivta boys today not learning any skills, that will be Roshei Yeshiva in 10-15 years….Or how many of the ones who are actually qualified to become Maggidei Shiurim don’t have relatives who will hire them??!! Again, my apologies to you if I was out of line in being critical. This is an issue that just drives me nuts though! Hatzlacha!!
I believe that our “shiduch crisis” and our “yeshiva crisis” and our “parnassah crisis” are all really one and the same.
Boys are taught in our yeshivas that all they have to do is learn and any form of secular education is looked down upon or is essentially nonexistent. Learning in bais medrash and Kollel for many years is the proper way, college is “assur” and “ba’al habos” is a dirty word. Girls are likewise brainwashed, especially in seminaries, to marry these learning guys and there is no need for any “plan.”
These boys and girls then go on “the market” with great expectations and a sense of entitlement but lack any credentials or means to satisfy these needs without getting them from parents and in-laws. Parents get sucked into the trap because they don’t want their beloved child to fall victim to the shiduch crisis so they agree to the absurd financial demands and years of support, whether they agree with it or not.
When the 3 or 5 or 7 year honeymoon eventually comes to an end, these boys and girls realize that they have no plan. But what is 30k a year going to do now. It is way to late in the game to start there. They thought their big sacrifice would be that they would have to drive a brand new Honda Accord instead of a Lexus. They didn’t realize that raising a family nowadays can cost a few hundred grand a year and the guy is probably worth no more than 10 bucks an hour.
This is a vicious cycle. So what should be done about it?
Nothing!
It is all going to come to an end very soon. The generation after the war did everything they could so that their children can get educated and make a living. That generation worked hard and prospered. The next generation was spoiled rotten and are under the impression that they are simply entitled to everything and can somehow have it all without earning it.
This cannot and will not last. The money is going to run out sooner or later. Even if their parents and in-laws support them now, who is going to support them in 20 years when they have a large family and a bunch of tuitions to pay, and then have a bunch of weddings to make? And who is going to support their 4 or 5 children when they follow in their parent’s footsteps?
When this bubble bursts, it is not going to be a pretty sight.
#27 (kollelman1),
thanks I’ll check out that site.
#40 (chesedname),
I understand where you’re coming from, if you have had genuine bad experiences with frum employees. I’m sorry if I came across too strong in my original post but it just drives me crazy when ppl assume that anyone who has financial difficulties is just too lazy to make a living. I work probably 80 hours per week or more on average (9-5 job plus running a small business with my wife), and still have a very hard time keeping up with the bills. In my 9-5 job I’m making less than double the starting salary I got about 10 years ago but as the family grows bli ayin horah, the expenses have more than doubled so I’m going backwards. I’m not lazy, I just haven’t figured out yet how to get that 200K job.
The bubble of ‘extended support in kollel’ will likely burst in sync with the housing bubble. Much like the American consumer who over-extended themselves financially when their house tripled in price in the last decade, the frum family over-extended itself by generously supporting married children in kollel to an unprecedented degree. Kollel families too, have been surviving off the growth in equity in their homes, taking out funds as needed.
This trend is likely to reverse itself as the housing market corrects from the largest bubble since 1929, (a decline of 20% in home prices will completely wipe out the value of the equity for many homeowners, particularly young families who strained and/or took out substancial equity in recent years). It will not be pleasant for anyone.
#56: you wrote: “The culture of blood suckers who are lazy, unmotivated, arrogant and ignorant must stop. I do put a lot of blame on the yeshivas for fostering such a philosophy”
that’s pretty strong words about your brothers and sisters! you ought to be ashamed of yourself! your drivel is worthy of the kkk or the aryan nation – not Yeshiva World.
#41: zero tolerance – hatzlocha rabba explaining why you sometimes arrive late or need to leave shul early or perhaps you need to miss a learning seder due to other pressing needs afterall there is a concept of mida keneged mida.
regarding facial hair – if you hire an employee based on his beard or lack there of and maintain this employee as long as the beard is the same as when you hired him, this is pure foolishness. you are judging by the external appearence and not what the person can do. So during sefira, what do you do? what about a person in shloshim (and some have a longer period) – do you sit these ingrates down and lecture them to shave or trim?
The college matter is not so simple. There really are alot of problems with the college environment and even with the “perfect” yeshiva education, there is no guarantee of standing up to the nisyonos, and even if that’s not a problem, there are major problems with purposely putting yourself in an untznius environment, issurim about the things you’re going to see and hear if its not going to cause you to go off the derech. So lets admit that college comes with legitimate concerns. That being said, however, there are enough ways around that making it assur legamrei is inexcusable. Someone posted above that Touro and Landers are ecellent options for frum people; furthermore, lets say you live in New York, you could reasonably attend Baruch college or Queens college or Brooklyn college by day and come home at night- nearly all of the spiritual problems with college exist in the dorm/social life and commuter students don’t have to deal with it, because they come in to go to school and they go home at night and therefore remove themselves from the worst of it. It’s a workable solution solution, and I know many who succeeded both materially and spiritually in this way, including my husband, who was already married to me for the second half of his college years.
Pashuteh Yid- I have no problem w/ YU, I think it’s a fine institution, the only problem is that it costs about 40k a year. The others that I mentioned are a fraction of the cost- and if people are complaining that entry level salaries aren’t enough to feed families, then it certainly wouldn’t be enough to feed families and pay off 100k in student loans.
#68 – r u talking to yourself? 🙂
to #59. Sorry, I should have written SOME Gedolim.
It is a fact that some Gedolim did prefer the Germans rather than the Russians…Yehoreg veAl Yaavor.
Other Gedolim paskened differently. Elu veElu divrei Elhoim Chaim.
I’m not sure why the brocha of “shame” was required ?!
to #57
Your screen name does not seem to match your attitude, and you seem to be delibrately taking my comments out of context.
I did not say or imply that you can walk in to a car dealership and obtain a car by “reciting” a Brisker Rav. My main point was simply a “machoo” against your comment and tone which seesm to indicate a lack of respect and value to learning Torah and to those who learn Torah Lishmo.
Finally, perhaps you don’t need to look further than yourself for the proof that going to college after learning Torah can be dangerous to your Yiddishkeit and Hashkofos.
This whole college danger business is utter nonsense. There are thousands of college educated Yidden who earn their living as a result of their degree, who are yerai shomayim, kovea ittim. supporters of torah with children who are wonderful bnai torah. The proof is staring you in the face.
Pashuteh Yid,
Although your idea is very good on paper it is highly impractical. it would cost a fortune to find teachers to teach this kind of knowledge and anyways even with this knowledge most major corporations will not hire someone without work experience who lacks a college degree, advanced training and all. Furthermore, most college students who have studied for years know nothing when they start working they learn most things on the job.
pashute yid, you’re right that there’s a bad attitude in chedarim regarding limudei chol – therefore your idea won’t work in chassidishe schools.
to #74
One Gadol – I believe it was Rav Powarsky.
I’m not sure what you mean by mile dealmoh, different Rabbonim who paskened different Halochos could all have been correct. Those who died al Kidush Hashem were Mekadesh Shem Shomayim. Those who survived Boruch HaShem !