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Clearly the right thing to do is not pray with a minyan. However, is someone needs to say Kaddish what is wrong with gathering ten men in a large area where everyone is at least ten feet apart and could be trusted not to come near each other? Find me one doctor that says the virus could be spread through the air ten feet apart. Are we saying that it’s impossible to find ten people capable of maintaining a distance? If the concern is other people hearing about it and making their own minyan without being careful, is it not possible to do it privately without anyone knowing? Or maybe people are doing this?
Read the new MIT study. Sneeze or cough goes 26 feet. And afterwards it lingers in the air like a cloud so you can walk through it. Just stay home. Ones Rachmona Patrei. The Torah wants us alive to do more mitzvos when this is over. Stay home.
Maybe this time we can apply this Kitzur Shulchan Aruch:
קיצור שולחן ערוך סימן כו סעיף כב
אף – על – פי שאמירת הקדיש והתפלות מועילות להאבות, מכל – מקום אין אלו העיקר, אלא העיקר הוא שהבנים ילכו באורח מישור, כי בזה הם מזכים האבות, הכי איתא בזוהר הקדוש, בן יכבד אב כמה – דאת – אמרת כבד את אביך ואת אמך, ואוקמיה במיכלא ומשתייא, ובכלא, האי בחייו דאיתחייב ביה, בתר דמית, אי תימא הא פטור הוא, לאו הכי, דאף – על – גב דמית, אתחייב ביקריה יתיר, דכתיב כבד את אביך, דאי האי ברא אזיל באורח תקלא, ודאי מבזה לאבוי הוא, ודאי עביד ליה קלנא. ואי ההוא ברא אזיל באורח מישור, ותקין עובדוי ודאי דא אוקיר לאבוי. אוקיר ליה בהאי עלמא גבי בני נשא, אוקיר ליה בההוא עלמא גבי קודשא בריך – הוא, וקודשא בריך – הוא חייס עליה ואותיב ליה בכורסיא דיקריה ודאי וכו’ עד – כאן – לשונו. ויש לו לאדם לצוות את בניו להחזיק באיזה מצוה, ואם מקיימין נחשב יותר מן הקדיש, והוא תקנה טובה גם למי שאין לו בנים אלא בנות.If you are unable to say kaddish, designate a custom to follow to commemorate your loved one and follow it through your life. Follow the ways you were taught by your love one.
There’s a very powerful video going around from Rabbi Shimon Freundlich from Chabad Beijing that explains why outdoor minyanim are dangerous. It just takes a little wind to blow that droplet from the guy who sneezed or coughed on your clothing. You touch your clothing, then touch your face, and you’re infected. If you google Shimon Freundlich instagram, you’ll find the video.
Of course, the bottom-line reason you should daven at home is because all the rabbonim say so.
JUST STAY HOME!!!! You are not smarter than the rabbonim. You are not smarter than the ER doctors. You are not smarter than the epidemiologists. Everyone who knows anything about both the medical and halachic side of things is telling you to stay home and daven alone. Stop trying to be a tzaddik. There is no mitzvah to increase the chances of people dying because you decided to ignore every rav and doctor. Israel said that 25% of cases were from shuls and minyanim. Are you willing to get 2 or 3 people sick per minyan while going against piskei halacha and medical advice? Your first sentence was correct: CLEARLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS NOT TO DAVEN WITH A MINYAN. The more “safe” minyanim you make, the more “safe” minyanim there will have to be as more people die and more people need to say kaddish for them.
Chesed also serves as an aliyah for a neshama. Give tzedakah, learn, etc.
If there was no risk to others and the risk could be limited to the 10 idiots who continue to defy every public health expert and virtually all gadolim, then let them cluster together and reap the consequences. The gene pool of the tzibur at large would benefit. However, their behavior risks all of us and that is why it is so infuriating to continue reading every day another question or proposal to circumvent the guidance. Tefillah b’tzibur is important but the lives of yidden are much more so.
User176: If you are not afraid because you are in a category of people with a good chance of coming through the coronavirus with a mild experience (though there are no guarantees) and you want to do good by Yidden maybe it’s right for you to volunteer with Chevra Kadisha or in an ICU unit.
Last Wednesday, 29 Adar, was the yahrtzeit of my father, Since none of us are going to shul, we all (sons, grandsons, and a couple of great grandsons) split up the entire Seder Moed Mishnayos to be learned all on the day of the yahrtzeit. Then at the end of the day we had a Zoom conference with my mother, who lives alone, and a whole bunch of descendants, at which we made a siyum. No Kaddish, as we were all in different locations, The siyum brought nachas to my father’s neshama, and the Zoom conference, with 31 active screens, brought loads of nachas to my mother, may she continue to be well.
Learn Mishnayos, give nachas to an almanah. That’s the way to go.
I have both horror and love for user176’s question.
I have love because clearly kaddish is so precious to him, he is scrambling for any way to have it.
I have horror because 2 weeks (or longer?) into this pandemic’s arrival in the US and thousands sick and thousands dying, the medical facts of the danger of pikuach nefesh, and the chillul Hashem involved he is still unable to adapt to this new reality and is considering endangering lives and causing great chillul Hashem.
user176, as the video elsewhere on YWN mentions, buildings have HVAC systems that circulate the air. Not to mention the 6 foot rule is useless if someone coughs or sneezes.
To the well meaning above. My father was nifter the past week from covid-19. He had been in isolation for a week or two with no visitors, though still contracted it and died. I’m desperate for a minyan to say kaddish for him!
If you’re being told from every side that regardless of the terms and conditions you apply to any minyan there’s a chashash sakono, why are you even considering it?
Please look after yourselves, your families and more importantly, look after the rest of the klal by isolating yourselves, no minyonim period“I don’t see anything wrong with ten people standing ten feet away from each other and not touching anything.”
Are you a doctor? A scientist of some type? Then your opinion, in this case, means nothing.“Based on that description of the danger I don’t see anything wrong with ten people standing ten feet away from each other and not touching anything.”
In Israel, at least, it’s now illegal.user176, the virus is contracted from a droplet (like saliva) of an infected person going into an opening (mouth, eye, nose, ear) of another person. What if someone sneezes and the wind blows? By having the minyan you describe, you are playing with “fire”. Its a highly contagious disease with no cure. 19 people from the frum community passed away today. This is not about “number of feet” games, this is about life and death and preventing the spread of germs from people who have it to people who don׳t have it and could die from it or further pass it on to someone else who could die from it. We need to leave room for a wide margin of error when life and death are involved.
This conversation is pretty much moot. Go to the front page of YWN to see the list of dead people. My neighbor died — she was not going to shul or illegal minyanim – and still caught it. I dont think the whole story is out about transmission. It seems worse than they think. (Not a doctor, not a scientist, not an alarmist). Those who waited 2 weeks to cancel minyonim were 2 weeks late to the party. (I was one of them — one week late). Now that we know — do whats right.
There is now documented evidence that in rare cases (a very strong/deep cough or sneeze) the viral droplets could be propelled up to 20 feet. Again, this is rare but we all know that we sometimes unexpectedly have such a cough/sneeze which has much greater “strength” and even if standing 6 feet away, could infect others.
The spread of this disease is not caused by minyanium but by people not wearing mask and gloves while in public areas ie shopping or on the street. This needs to be stressed as the mask prevents transmission and the gloves prevent contact with the spores. It’s a lost cause trying to convince someone who is currently davening with a minyan to stop
DONT DAVEN WITH A MINYAN! The message has been made very clear by ALL of the Rabanim and by ALL doctors and authorities! NO EXCUSES
If it’s not being spread by minyanim how comes so many people seem to have caught it in shul?
The problem is you cannot trust people to space out they just don’t do it…. and you can’t trust vulnerable people to stay home.
Nobody has an issue with hatzolo breaking Shabbos which is surely more serious than missing minion why on earth can people not get this through their heads stay home do not congregate.We are supposed to be intelligent when it comes to this basic halachic issue the frum community has totally failed and it’s cost dozens of lives how we ever recover from this I don’t know what message do we send our kids that we don’t get basic principles of Jewish law? R”l
“If it’s not being spread by minyanim how comes so many people seem to have caught it in shul?”
If it IS being spread by minyanim how come so many people d got it elsewhere? My husband got it at work from someone who may have gotten it from someone he saw in a supermarket who knew she had it but didn’t isolate. And my female friend got it but her husband did not go to minyan. My kids who went to minyanim before being told not to are the only ones in my house who BH have NOT gotten it.
I work for hatzalah, i get the outcry, but if you don’t know that your rant is 100% lishma than keep it to yourself. Go complain about target, safeway and walmart.I never meant that you can not catch it by going to a minyan. My main point was that the vast majority of people dying and or catching corona virus have never attended a minyan in their life. They probably caught it in a store or other public area because they were not wearing a mask. It’s been almost four weeks since the virus started and I think all shuls have been closed either voluntarily or under threat of closure by the government. So the only minyanim that are around are underground and difficult to find. And if found will just pop up elsewhere. If you really want to combat this epidemic and not just rant, the government should start distributing masks to the public and likewise go house to house testing people so those infected with the virus wouldn’t transmit it to others.
The chasidim created a minyan on my block on the street. Everyone stands apart from the other. I lained for myself. I was joking that we can do like Alexandria waiving a flag to know to answer Amen.
In Williamsburg I feel like the only one who davens with out minyan. Most small shuls are open. They minyanim o the street. Most people in the stores and street don’t have masks. I can’t understand what is going on in these people’s heads. It’s as if there is no virus. There is a mikva open that charges 20$ a time. I called 311 and reported a few shuls but nothing happened.
its NOT a zchus for the niftar to make a minyan and endanger peoples life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you are all on your own properties, it’s fine.
Keep on the Social Distancing.
Why do we assume that it is better to daven in the street with a safek minyan, than setting aside a place inside?
Forget about the health, I do not see a Torah value in these “minyanim”. Except some people need it for their wellbeing.n0mesorah: Go argue with the Gedolei Rabbonim shlit”a of Lakewood.
For those who think the main risk of spread is from davening with a minyan, they should only daven with the same minyan when shuls reopen
in his shiur on porch minyanim, i belive r felder said that since these minyanim rely on kulas in halacha, one who feels he will daven better inside should do so. baruch shekivanta, although its clear that this sort of minyan has solid halachik standing in the poskim, although our hergeyshim may have originally told us otherwise.
Dear Just,
“Solid halachik standing”, is not an incentive. going to a shul this is struggling with a minyan, is far more of an obligation than going to shul at all. Yet, most of us go where we prefer. My question is to why MO=minyan only Jews, prefer davening on their porches? Will they be tolerant of porch minyanim becoming permanent?It causes me great agmas nefesh to see people going to some secret minyan,, not only because they appear to be defying what rabbanim has declared but also because I am not part of a minyan.
nomesora,
r felder said very clearly that we are only relying on the psak that this is a valid minyan bc its a shas hadchak gadol. im”H bekarov it will not be and of course we will not be making these minyanim and we will be makpid to go to a beis knessess. i dont know why anyone wud ever make one of these minyanim lechatchila.
no one claimed its an incentive,its a viable halachik way to tap into the tremendous koach of tfilla betzibbur without endangering any lives. i dont know of anyone that prefers top daven on his porch over in a shul…but then again…Dear Just,
If a father goes to the neighborhood shul without a seat for his boys, maybe it is better to have a minyan on porches so that the boys can attend. No loshon hora in shul this way. The men are already home shabbos morning, and do not get intoxicated in shul.
For me, the answer is that there is no way a porch minyan is teffilah b’tzibbur, it can only be a minyan for kaddish and so on. But for you that halachic justification create this amazing koach,you can pick any of the above reasons.so the opinion you just said was, to be clear, that it would make sense shut down shuls and rely on a kula to have tfila btzibbur beacuase theres not enough seats, ppl are saying lashon hara and people are getting drunk. huh???? Do you really think you make sense?
Just on Tuesday.
“It’s a viable halachik way to tap into the tremendous koach of tefillah b’tzibbur.
Just on Wednesday.
“Rely on a kula to have tefillah b’tzibbur.”Dear Just,
It does not work. There has to be a serious reason to have minyanim. You just dump people into a minyan and claim to have tefillah b’tzibbur. We can’t force Hashem to answer us. Especially, if there is no focus on both davening, and joining the t’zibbur.nomesora,
a kula is viable halachik thing u can rely on in a shas hadchak gadol. there is no stirah whatsoever. r felder is saying, as are many poskim, that since tfillah btzibbur is so important, its a good enough reason to rely on the halachick standing that these minyanim rely on to be considered a minyan and one should take part in them.
these are my understanding of his shiurim. if ud like to hear the shiur call 732-363-6713 and then pressing 1, 2, 50.
not sure what u mean by “It does not work”. and no ones dumping ppl in minyanim. and no ones trying to force Hashem to answer anything…. basically u lost me on that whole last sentence.Dear Just,
The question is what causes what. Does the need for the activity of tefillah b’tzibbur cause the halachic allowance for porch minyanim, or; since this is a viable halachic minyan we activate it to achieve the great result of tefillah b’tzibbur. You seem to have said both. And they could both be true. But only one can be the justification for why we are having these minyanim.
If the only idea is that we need it so that our tefillos should be answered, I disagree. We are answered based on the merits of the tefillah. Creating minyanim solely for the purpose of having the koach of tefillah b’tzibbur is meaningless.again, as per my understanding of rabbi felders shiur on porch minyanim, a modern day psak often is a decision when to rely on das yachid. the need for tfilla btzibur didnt create the halachik standing a porch minyan relys on. that was decided many years ago by the pri megadim and others(if my memory serves me correctly). that decision was outnumbered by many gedolay achronim and is what is called the das yachid and therefore not relied upon lechatchila to avoid making brachos levatala according to those shitos.
however the mishna brura writes that in a shas hadchak perhaps one may rely on the pri megadim and
today in deciding which poskim to rely on in that shayla, our poskim invoked the motivation of shas hadchak gadol and paskin that since its really important to have tfilla btzibbur, one should rely on the pri megadim(and others) and make a minyan even tho it will go against the gedolay poskim that held its not a minyan and enters shaylos of brachos levatala.
the halachik basis is the pri megadim. the motivation to rely on the pri megagdim is the shas hadchak gadol, which is a need for the koach of a tzibbur.
hope this clarifies ur problem and answers why no on is “Creating minyanim solely for the purpose of having the koach of tefillah b’tzibbur.”
again if ur actually interested in fully understanding and im not doing a good enough job explaining, listen to the beginning of the first shiur.Dear Just,
Is it possible that we can form a minyan based on a kula, but in Shamayim it does not have the effect of tefilla b’tzibbur?There is a priest in North Caldwell NJ who is suing the State of NJ for closing houses of worships that can conduct services with social distancing, that law firm forced Illinois to allow services, I think that priest will win that suit.
i dont know, thats above my pay grade. if its possible does anything change? i’d assume wed certainly be onsim for making brachos levatala, because our poskim said to do it. so what do we have to lose? Hashem says listen to ur poskim and our poskim tell us to do it.
Dear Just,
Until our poskim become Sanhedrin sitting in the hewn chamber, at best we are shogeg. Which translates to mistaken. 1) Where did Hashem say anything in regards to poskim? There mitzvah of limud hatorah applies double to the applications of the Torah. 2) Did we ask our poskim? Or due to a total lack of straight-forward thinking before and during this crisis, some of us focused on minyanim as the only topic of debate. The Rabbonim acting on the available medical information, are doing what they can to control those that cannot take responsibility for themselves. 3) What do we have to lose? I thought the only reason to attempt porch minyanim was the dire need for the koach of T’fillah B’tzibbur.dear nomesora,
curious to know ur source for us being a shogeg.
not sure what u mean by take responsibility for themselves, asking a posek is way more responsible than making a nonfullyeducated decision on ur own.
)u were asking if its possible we are doing nothing even tho our poskim said its a minyan. i answered i dont know but even if yes, theres no risk involved. i still maintain that the motivation to do so is not because we have nothing to lose rather because we are losing out in tfilla btzibbur and trying this way at least has many gedolai achronim saying its good.
in other words i didnt understand what u were getting at by asking if its possible that klapay shmaya we are doing nothing while the rabanim say its something, you cant lose by doing what the torah tells u to do. a posek is someone who knows the torah, which is the will of Hashem, and tells you what the will of Hashem is in a given situation. dunno any sources but thats pretty logical, no?
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