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Why has is become the new normalcy for mesivta boys to stay and go to a local mesivta versus everyone used to always go out of town where you grew more maturity and responsibility as you got older and it was a great thing for your growth?
Because people realized it wasn’t such a good thing. Especially today, where kids take longer to mature, parents and Rabbonim realized that these kids missing out on seeing parents interact, interacting with siblings and family, attending local family Bar Mitzvahs and Kiddaishim, etc, was doing more harm than good.
Well we’ve learned that it’s usually not the case that it makes a person more mature.
SK: You started with the premise “Why has is become the new normalcy for mesivta boys to stay and go to a local mesivta versus everyone used to always go out of town”. Where and when was it “normal” to always goout of town? I was in Mesivta Chaim Berlin in the 1970’s and 90% of the talmidim were local (Brooklyn), 5% from Queens and 5% from outside New York State.
Because going out of town had many problems of it’s own that were only by those who went OOT themselves.
The parents thirty years hadn’t done so and were blissfully unaware of them
To give but two of the many (1)the difficulty of getting enough sleep in a dorm (2)having a vulnerable teenager in a situation of 24/7 peer pressure.
When I was in my early twenties in the late 90s I was at a large debate about OOT with about thirty bochurim present. The only ones who said they would send their children OOT were the ones who hadn’t gone OOT themselves. Some of those who I remember as the biggest talkers about how they would only go OOT thirty years ago are now some of the most vehement opponent of OOT
I have watched Mesivtos open and fold over the years here in CT. A few local parents decided they didn’t want to send their boys away after 8th grade. So they hit up the local Baal Batim and opened schools. In 6-8 years the schools would fail (usually after the first group of local boys had graduated and the original group of parents lost interest).
My older brothers went to Mesivta in Brooklyn, but did not live in a dorm, they lived with my grandparents who lived within 2 blocks of school.
I went to Mesivta in New Haven. My two sons went to Mesivta in Brooklyn, they dormed during the week and spent Shabbos with my grandparents.The only boys who I noticed being sent to Mesivta in New Haven during the 70s and 80s were those from troubled backgrounds, but whose parents could write a large check. The Litvish Mesivta (along with day school has closed down amid scandal and the RY is in a state jail cell for what was done to vulnerable students in the dorms.
I would never willingly send a 14 year old off to live in a dorm somewhere and attend Mesivta in these times. I might consider boarding with a family I have vetted, but would prefer they live with relatives. My grandsons of that age are Brooklyn and living in my sister’s home during the zmanim.
There are a number of really good OOT yeshivos, some of which weren’t around in the 70s, 80s, and early 90s. They are located in places as diverse as Philadelphia and Long Beach and each offers balanced programs of limudei kodesh and limudei chol on a par with the yeshivos in NYC. Obviously, they are not all offering the same “balance” and differ in competitiveness, class sizes, and overall ruach. Your son is special and you should not rely on others’ advice entirely but visit the school, spend a day or learning and perhaps add a Shabbos if possible. Talk with your son’s current rebbe and then make a decision.
My boys dormed in local yeshivos
Sammy: Do you really believe that a teenage boy living in an OOT dorm with no parental supervision is immune from “worldly distractions”?? Most bochurim today can run circles around the so called “mashgiach ruchani” or dorm counselors who are supposed to be providing real-time supervision. It really depends on the bochur and how much” independence” they can handle.
Sam Hashem decides it all anyway except יראת שמים.
So who cares where you send your kidAs one who went away to mesifta/yeshiva at age 14 and who sent his son away at the same age (to the same place), I can report that there are benefits to doing so. I have found that there were fewer distractions OOT. It is easier to concentrate on learning and shtayg away from the familiar distracting home dynamic of travel, outside interests, etc.
That is not to say that there are no difficulties with living in a dorm. While the rebbeim and mashgichim supervise the boys closely, ways can still be found to go outside the box, as it were. For instance, I learned to smoke in yeshiva. Also, dorm life has it’s tests and dangers that bachurim have to learn to avoid.
Sending your son away requires that you know and trust your son. In my experience, the benefits clearly outweighed the drawbacks.a few points; some of the changes that evolved
1. the older dor of roshei yeshiva that went into a midbar to found a oot yeshiva had a wife willing to forgo everything and took the risk of their children going to local dayschools or dorming by relatives from a young age ( scranton , stamford, passaic…southbend.. chicago detroit.. denver.. telz today we cannot imagine how w/o money , bochurim, mishpacha… these mosdos started
2. staff / ratio- many of these mekomos were a 2 man band a rosh & maybe 2 more staff & the rebbetzin cooked or office… shabbos , yomtov winter summer – today a oot yeshiva needs an army from mashgichim to nt seder from shoel umeshiv to dorm counselor
3. THE TURNPIKE- made room for options ( patterson, sprinfield, clifton…. lakewood & monsey all this gave the best of both a little OOT yet w one foot in shtutDear Sam,
A lot of good points here. But to answer your question, the options are gone. It used to be, that college or work at 18 was a serious option. Just being in yeshiva was not. Today, every boy is entitled to be in yeshiva until at least marriage. It is more about becoming a yeshivishe yungerman than studying Torah. Going out of town is for serious Torah students. staying in town is to become more yeshivish.@n0mesorah, “entitled”??? no one is entitled to anything, state law mandates education until age 17, lets have your opinion in lets say 15 years from now after your married and have kids of your own, not a bored teen’s opinion
Dear Common,
I totally agree with you. But parents continually put their boy s back into yeshiva, instead of looking for alternative ways to grow. If the bachur is ready to go on is own, there is still tremendous peer pressure to be in yeshiva. Even more on his parents to get him into one. That is where we end up with entitlement. “Your son has to be in yeshiva.” There used to be options. and people respected their peers decision of what to do with their own son. I was refering to girls, as I do not know much about how this correlates in Bais Yaakovs.Check back in a few years when you find out
Dear Common,
If your son was done with yeshiva, and his Rebbe said he would grow by moving on, would face pressure from your friends and family to leave him in yeshiva?I could check back when I have girls going through their system. With boys, I see this in my group everyday. Boys are being told to move on or take a break from yeshiva. And their parents cannot overcome the pressure.
Dear nOmesorah,
In a few years start dating, find your zivik, get married, have kids, start paying tuition and then let me know what your opinion isDear Common,
I would tell you to come to yeshiva and see for yourself. well, not these days. Maybe when I’ll be paying my daughter tuition, yeshivos will be about only learning Torah again.I don’t know about Monsey but Lakewood and certainly Brooklyn are not facing any mesivta shortages for Litvish Bochurim who don’t want to go OOT.
I looked at mitzvos mentioned in Shema, and this is strange: nobody relies on OOT Rav putting tefilin instead of him, or a mezuza or wearing tzitzis, but somehow “shinantem levanecha” davka has to be outsourced to a local school at least, but better to a far away towm – until the kid is able to fly onhis own and go to another country.
More seriously, when Bava Basra goes through educational option: fathers teaching is preferred, but did not work consistently. Sending to Yerushalaim (i.e. best, most kodesh and inspiring places) also did not work for many. OOT yeshivas is 3rd option – but teens did not listen to the teachers. Last and accepted option was to teach small kids locally.
Furthermore, there were always differences in styles: In EY, kids would learn first (locally) and then marry (so not to be distracted). In Bavel, kids would marry first and then go OOT (not to be distracted) to learn.
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