16 Responses

1. Is Torah learning of so little value to Daati Leumi that they’re willing to forgo the 50% chilonim who dodge the draft and pull yeshiva boys out in order to save their Religious Zionists settlements? Well, it won’t happen, not now, not ever.

   The Zionists have to remember that they cannot enforce their rules upon an existing yishuv just because they established a secular government.

   Are Charedim obligated to pay taxes to professors and universities whose students dodge the draft, while yeshiva budgets are cut?

2. Who runs Hatzalah and who runs Zaka if not charedim? Who does the most chessed if not charedim? Are there any chiloni organizations doing chessed? Any chilonim group that can compete with, let’s say, Satmar? Do chilonim even have schools teaching about chessed and sending their students out for voluntary work? Charedim should teach chilonim and their education minister how to do chessed and how to help in time of emergencies.

3. But without meaningful sanctions, the goal of getting almost all hareidim into the army (and out of the hareidi community, and hopefully into adopting a more modern, zionist lifestyle) will fail. Financial penalties are unenforceable since most bnei yeshiva are “judgement proof.” Cutting off government funding will penalize only pro-zionist yeshivos, but won’t impact anti-zionists since they don’t accept government funding. Prohibiting bnei yeshiva from working “on the books” is a meaningless penalty.

   Eichler’s comments are as reasonable as if someone complained to Hitler that he shouldn’t throw Jews into concentration camps.

   If the zionists were not motivated by bigotry against hareidim, they would abolish conscription and rely on “the carrot” rather than “the stick”. But those who rule Eretz Yisrael are more interested in “breaking” the hareidim community, even if it undermines the medinah or weakens the military.

4. “50% chilonim who dodge the draft”??? Where do you get numbers like that?! That’s ridiculous and the hyperbole accomplishes nothing more than to weaken the charedi position. It’s also completely false that most charedi institutions don’t take money from the government. That’s been the only accomplishment of the charedim in the government to date! All they focus on is getting more and more money for yeshivos. And the yeshivos accept it! And while we’re at it, since when do charedim have the monopoly on chessed?! How insane! Not to mention completely ignorant. It’s just more meaningless ranting only to attempt to distract from the larger issue at hand.

   Stop screaming about “zionists” and their desire to “modernize the charedim” and own up to the reality. No parent wants their son serving on a front line! But they do it. And not just in the name of zionism, but in the name of you and me to protect yiddin and give us a safe place — one that we didn’t have 70 years ago. So start by saying thank you. Then take the next step and daven for the safety of your soldiers. And finally, step up to the plate and do your part. If your part is to learn Torah, then do it like a soldier! Get up at the crack of dawn, sweat buckets and break your back over the difficult sugyas! Dont see your family for weeks on end! No mid-day falafel! And if you’re not up for the rigors of the Torah brigade, then suit up in an army uniform or sign up for national service in one of the hundreds of options. Chessed is so important? Then do it as part of your national service! We’re one nation and like it or not the zionists are part of it too. If they’ve accomplished one thing it is to be mechayev the rest of the nation in areivus and one that truly means.

5. akuperma: Exactly correct. Much like the Third Reich weakened its own military in order to facilitate gassing the Jews.

6. geshicked #4: Don’t be foolish. Zionist soldiers in the IDF eat mid-day falafels. Jews who learn Torah cannot? Zionist soldiers in the IDF don’t get up at the crack of dawn while many Torah learners do. Zionist soldiers in the IDF see their family more than once every 10 weeks and there is no reason a Torah man should not visit his wife and children provide his obligation of onah and family time. That is part of Torah life and its obligations.

   And Torah Jews daven for ALL Jews in Israel, soldiers or otherwise. To claim otherwise is a blood libel. All Jews are worthy of our prayers.

7. What a shame!

   Lipman and the rest of them are coming forward trying to modify his stance, these Chareidim representatives are stepping backwards and giving in to the anti Chareidim camp.

   Terrible disgrace and big shame
   Big Time Chilul Hashem!!!

8. Geshicked— You’re da man.Some of the others here just won’t accept the reality that Hoakodosh Boruch Hu has returned EY to the Jewish people and performs miracles there every second. To deny it is apikorsus.. They would do more chessed by teaching, encouraging, explaining and embracing chilonim and bring them to Yiddishkeit. While it’s true that chareidim have wonderful chessed organizations, it’s also important to do chessed to ‘gezunte’ people, not just to sick and accident victime R”ltz. Now that would really be chessed.

9. #4 Just because you’re not aware of it, doesn’t mean it’s not so.

   Let’s hear names of chiloni voluntary organizations for chessed. Could you name even “1”?
   National service is for chilonim who do not do any other form of voluntary work. They might as well get some schar for chessed like charedim.

   For the record, charedim have been living in Israel hundreds of years before the Zionists and unlike today, had no problem learning Torah.

   If chilonim want charedim in the army they have to make it 100% geared for charedim whose strongpoint is kedusha and teharah. They they have no intentions to change their immoral and corrupt army to suit charedim though.

   We’re one nation with the Zionists believing that yishuv haaretz is the only mitzvah in the Torah. Aren’t charedim allowed to desecrate one mitzvah while they desecrate 612 mitzvot?

10. ….”And Torah Jews daven for ALL Jews in Israel, soldiers or otherwise. To claim otherwise is a blood libel…..” Why are you lying? Surely you know that most chareidi shuls refuse to make a Mi Shebeirach for the IDF.

11. akuperma -apukores— You haven’t answered the question. What kind of work are you out of, that you have so much time?

12. #9 just one not-charedi chessed organization? That’s easy! Off the top of my head? Ezer Mitzion. Want another one? Shalva. Want a third? Leket Israel. Should I go on? I can easily do so!
    Educate yourself before you spew hatred and libelous claims against another yid.

13. #6 — Which soldier stationed on a front line eats falafel midday and sleeps in in the morning? And who’s talking about an occasional family visit? Charedim in yeshiva can live at home and see their families every day! They can take their kids to gan! A man on miluiim has to leave his job and his family for that period of time. It’s sickening to see people use Torah has a shield and a weapon. You want to convince people that you’re serving the nation by learning? Then get up and serve! Put some muscle into it. Torah is about Y’giah. No doubt there are many who do. But there are also many who dont. Turn your energies into reforming them because they’re giving a bad rep to the rest of the group.
    We just finished Bein Hazamanim — when have you ever heard of an army giving everybody off for 3 weeks at the SAME TIME!!! It’s insane! If Torah learning is what’s protecting us than you have no right to take a break unless you have an appointed stand in for your post while you’re on vacation.
    And since you brought it up — As a Torah jew I know I daven for all Jews — religious or otherwise. That includes soldiers and it includes charedim. But my shul doesn’t. Does your shul? At what point in the davening do you daven for the safety and wellbeing of the soldiers?

14. #13 geshicked — 9 out of 10 IDF soldiers are non-combat and are not on the front line. And very few soldiers who are combat get to eat falafel sometimes.

    Again, 9 out of 10 IDFers are non-combat. Torah learners SHOULD and MUST go home to their families when they finish learning after night seder.

    Yes — my shul davens for ALL Jews. Three times a day in fact. 7 days a week.

15. Some people think the “chilonim” (meaning anybody who doesn’t hold by their rebbe) are on a mission to destroy the Torah.

    I think the chareidim are on a mission – to destroy the State of Israel. That’s why chareidim are withholding thousands of potential soldiers who could be protecting us from Hamas to the east and Hizbollah from the North.

    Instead, they hope that the Medinah will collapse, so Jewish people will once again be ruled by our enemies, who long for the next generation of concentration camps. Let’s see how much protection their rebbes give them when that happens, R”L.

16. #14 “9 out of 10 IDF soldiers are non combat”??? Where do you get your statistics?!
    And, “Torah learners SHOULD and MUST go home to their families when they finish night seder”??? MUST? No my friend, they mustn’t. True Y’giah demands mesirus nefesh. Rabbi Akiva reached the heights taht he did because he went away. So they may WANT to go home each day but MUST (and in all CAPS mind you) is an overexaggeration. Until b’nei Yeshiva insist on taking it easy, they have no claim to Torah as their national service. At bare minimum, acknowledge the supreme sacrifice that the soldiers are making and be humbled by that. I’ve yet to see a Yeshiva boy in today’s day and age offer to sacrifice the same way
    And, wow…your shul davens specifically for the soldiers and you still can speak the way you do? It might help you to read along in the artscroll while they daven so you can realize the importance of the words you are saying and then begin to internalize it