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I am stumped!
As I was cooking a bit pot of 60 pounds of chopped meat, my neighbor comes by carrying a pound of treif chopped meat (she bought it for her dog). Being a yenta and a klutz, she checks out my cooking pot of meat and accidentally dropped her treif chopped meat into it.
The meats are all mixed together and cannot be distinguished or separated.
Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.
Here is the dilemma (only for those with a double digit or higher IQ – single digit IQ owners need not apply):
She wants me to give her one of the pounds of meat that are in my pot, which is kosher meat and she can now feed it to her family for supper!
I say, no way, I only need to return to you one pound of treif meat – which is much cheaper than kosher meat. You have no right to a valuable pound of kosher meat. Your meat is the cheap dog food meat, not expensive kosher meat!
She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!
We are at a stalemate!!
We are willing to fully accept the psak of the Coffee Room (which will be cheaper than going to a Din Torah – I don’t know how much Rabbi Yair Hoffman charges for such cases).
Any psak should be provided with a reason (מאיזה טעם דנתוני , per Sanhedrin 31b).
The winning reply will get as a token of our appreciation, one delicious meatball made from this mixture of 60 lbs kosher meat and 1 lb dog food – it is kosher l’pessach.
You only have pay the neighbor the price of treif meat.
The Yoreh Deah shaila is separate from the choshen mishpat.
Not sure your psak in the yoreh deah part is correct. It takes a while for that one pound to fall into the pot, and while it falls you might have chaticha naasis neveila. Plus one pound of meat is difficult to get mixed in so quickly so it’s be’en, and you are mechuyav to remove what’s be’en.
Mostly a mazik pays מה שהזיק and not מה שנהנה. He pays for the harm done and not the gain benefited. so you pay for treif meat.
She dropped a piece of meat in your pot, let her take it back.
So she can’t figure out which one is hers? Nu nu. Her problem, not yours.
the dog food is kosher lipesach? is chametz batil bishishim?
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
60+1 = 60?
There is a third tzad: that you owe her nothing .
she dropped the meat into your pot the meat she dropped is gone, batul it doesnt exist anymore .
why would you have to pay her back with other meat? If she dropped it on the floor would you have to pay her back?
In fact if you had 59 pounds in your pot, she might have to pay you for ruining your meat !true you gain a bit from her clumsiness but so what?
Meno, you say, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.
Meno, you say, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה.
Exactly my point. Let her prove that the piece of meat she’s taking is the one she dropped in.
If she actually could prove it somehow, then it was never actually batul.
Chametz before pesach is botel, but not on pesach.
I am just wondering how someone can have so much mazel:
all the matzah hidden on pesach?
Waiter puts finger in soup?
treif meat falling into a pot that just happens to have 60 lbs of kosher chopped meat (how big of a pot)?
I said , if you feel that you were mazik, you pay treif meat back; You like to misunderstand things.
You owe her the amount she lost. Why would it make a difference if it’s kosher now. You should owe her Treif meat.
1) Why would you be cooking 60lbs of ground meat?
2) Why would your neighbor put her meat into your pot.Ypu cannot give the neigjhbor trreif meat as ypu cannot sell non-kosher meat.
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname,
“Luckily, my 60 pounds of kosher meat nullifies her one pound of treif meat, so now my poy has 60 pounds of kosher meat.”
“She says, one of those pounds in this pot is mine, and if it is now kosher, bonus to me. You can’t replace my meat with another meat – give me meat from this pot.
I say, no, you put in a treif pound into my pot, that is all you deserve, to you get back a treif pound of meat, the koshering part is mine, because of my 60 pounds of meat. You didn’t put in a kosher pound of meat, why should i give you back a kosher pound of meat?!”
You should give her 1lb of meat from your pot, and you will still have 60lbs of meat in your pot. A miracle?
She wants to take it back (any pound of meat in my pot) but I want to keep all the 61 lbs of kosher meat and give her back trief meat for her dog.
Let’s pretend she dropped a pound of kosher meat in the pot. Who says she could just take back any pound of meat in the pot? If I drop a basketball in your backyard, can I go into your backyard and just grab any basketball I find?
The burden is on her to prove that she’s taking back what’s hers. Until she can prove it, she gets nothing.
Meno
+1Thats what I was trying to say
Re: Seder in Nepal
Big deal. We’re booked on the floating islands, Lake Titicaca, Peru. Management promised all chometz tasting very kosher for P lemehadrin babkas, 4 Daf shifts a day, and a 300 man
chorale at both seder finales to sing L’shana Habah B’Yerushalim guaranteed to make young and old weep with longing and dveikus or our money back. They may surprise us with an encore- Al Naaros Bavel Sham Yashavnu… bocheenu..etc. to make grandmas swoon and grandpas shudder. If it’s as promised, maybe we’ll do it again next year…. and the year after.Think about it – if I have a mountain of quarters and you drop your quarter into them, do you lose it – because you can’t identify which exact quarter is yours?!
Well cash might be different, but if they were objects then I would say yes. Or at least maybe.
M’heicha teisi that she could she be m’chayev you to give her something without you aggreing to it? Bring me a raya. You’re good at that.
Rebbetzin
” Think about it – if I have a mountain of quarters and you drop your quarter into them, do you lose it ”
Are quarters batul?
Can one person eat all 60 pounds (or ml to make it more plausible) in one bite? Arent they eating a pound (or ml) of treif? by davar yavesh we hold lehalacha one person cant eat all three items is that the din here.
If not, why not?…some CR posters like Meno and ubiquiten think I don’t need to return – which is incorrect…
I’m waiting for a raya otherwise.
By a pikadon the shomer accepted achrayus so he can’t tayna hamotzi mechaveiro alav haraya. Here you didn’t accept any achrayus.
This feels like an April fool’s joke questions and this incident never happened
Rebitzen
“a) this isn’t really a case of davar yovesh;”
Correct, It isnt at all, as I said.
“; (b) we are not dealing with one person eating all the 61 lbs of meat (at one sitting) ”
you arent, i’m asking you CAN a person eat all 61 lbs (you correctly pointed out that by davar yavesh he cannot) in your case if you so choose can you eat it all at once?
” (but some CR posters like Meno and ubiquiten think I don’t need to return – which is incorrect but I love them!).”
I said it as a tzad, though I am leanig that way.
You obviously don’t have to return kosher meat, that makes no sense whatsoever I don’t even hear the sevara that you would have to. You might have to return treif meat, but if it was lost by your friend, and it doesn’t exist anymore I’m not sure why you have to pay him back for her clumsinessYou said by pikodon a person is given back the same type of item that he left even if it isn’t identical but close enough.
This pot doesn’t have anything recognizable that resembles the dog food meat so you would need to buy new pound of treif meat for the dog.“the same “shayla ” if you buy a box of Rice Crispies cereal ”
no it isnt the same shylah as Ive pointed out to you.
for the third time: CAN a person eat all 61 lbs (you correctly pointed out that by davar yavesh he cannot) in your case if you so choose can you eat it all at once?
So what happened to the dog?
I’m no dayan! And this answer is by no means as far as i know a halachic response, just a response from the feelings of my heart.
I would give the neighbor the whole pot with all the meat and tell her to never step foot in my kitchen with her food again. I would be sick eating even 1oz of treif dog food. 🤮🤮🤮Assuming you decided to give her meat for the sake of peace with your neighbour, if she was not Jewish, then non-kosher meat would be acceptable. If she was Jewish then she would have to confirm that it was only for her dog, otherwise theirewould be a moral obligation to give her kosher meat so as not to put a stumbling-block before the blind. In other words it would be a kiruv opportunity to draw a Jew who doesn’t keeper kosher to perhaps consider becoming kosher.
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