45 Responses

1. Shame on YWN for printing this now. It’s over – it should not have been printed ever & even though this particular article is meant to “clarify’, its inevitable that it will give the habitual LH speakers an urge to write their hateful comments. (News orgs have a big responsibility to ensure that they aren’t feeding L”H, Chillul Hashem & so forth.) Not everything that creates clicks & comments is suitable for printing. This falls under the category of Lifnei Eever…

2. Bochurim and yeshivaleit should NOT fast it would take away from their learning a popper masmid learns 15 hours aday without good nourishment its impossible to concentrate . Priority are really put of wack here someone needs guidance.

3. I don’t understand.
   The Rosh Yeshiva enacted rules. He defended them admirably. The boys knew the rules, and the Rosh Yeshiva enforced them. Good for him.
   Why are people sticking their noses in where they do not belong and are uninvited?

4. You wrote: When Rav Elya Svei zt”l passed away, the Rosh Yeshiva forbade the high school bochurim from attending the levaya when it was out of town.” does this mean the Rosh HaYeshiva gave permission to the Bais Medrash bochorim to go to Rav Elya Svei’s levaya?

5. Thank you for this clarification. I think it makes clear that a lot of the criticism directed towards the Yeshiva was unfounded and even uncalled for.

6. I think it was grossly unfair to this yeshiva for any news source to report the story without the information relayed here. This information is so clear that it makes me wonder if that letter supposedly from a Rebbe was even real. Why didn’t that tell us these details instead of taking a “trust us” approach?

7. Thanks. It’s not YWNs business to tell a Yeshiva what to do. They aren’t the Huffington post.

8. Where they תינוקות של בית רבן? ש’ע י’ד שס’א ס’א

9. Is there any issue Hoffman feels unqualified to answer?

10. This Rosh Yeshive in question is showed a horrible example to the Talmidim and Klal Yisroel. The bochurim were moiser nefesh to do one of the greatest mitzvos in the Torah, bedieved, which the Rosh Yeshiva tried to restrict them from doing. Every second the bochurim are out of yeshiva can decrease their ahavas hashem, ahavas torah and emunah. As the Rosh Yeshiva forgives the bochurim, so does and will hashem forgive him (NOT). I urge the bochurim to find a better yeshiva. For the Rosh Yeshiva, I leave him with this: אין המדרש העיקר, אלה המעשה. You can sit in Yeshiva & learn gemorah. But you mainly learn torah to do mitzvos, which YOU ignore. Lastly your actions truly show and follow this path: אם אין תורה, אין דרך ארץ. אם אין דרך ארץ, אין תורה. Translation: Since you’re not really a בן תורה, you don’t keep halacha (ie. דרך ארץ), indicated by the chillul hashem & rishus you do every second to the bochurim). The reverse of that מאמר in משנה אבות follows, concluding that you’re not a ben torah.

11. im trying to understand what chinuch are we giving our children (and yes teenagers do read YWN and MATZAV etc)
    where a rosh yeshivas deciecision is debated in the public forum and questioned like a politician re his motives etc?
    is nothing sacred anymore
    how will the young generation be expected to have respect for a rav or rosh yeshiva after reading all this
    i understand if the parents of these boys go in and speak to the rosh yeshiva thats fine
    but this public debate cheapens rabbinic authority in the eyes of a generation that has very little kavod for rabonim

12. In what sense is this an “analysis”?
    Sounds more like a press release from the hanhala.

    Has Rabbi Hoffman spoken to the bachurim?
    Was there any context to 50 of them having decided to leave yeshiva to go to the levaya?
    Was there any context to 50 of them having been expelled — anything else going on there?

    (Not that nay of the above is my business. But what bothers me is calling this an “analysis.”)

13. Rabbi Hoffman:
    I appreciate your effort to try to calm down the situation. However if your intention is to help get the Chilul Hashem reduced, I believe you would be more successful if you write the other side of the story as well and then conclude that it was an unfortunate misunderstanding with no real bad intent from either side. So let me fill you in on the parts that you omitted, perhaps intentionally.

    1) By Reb Shmuel Birnbaum ZT”L’s Levaya that was NOT in town, the Yeshiva officially attended the Levaya and they even provided buses. Therefore it was NOT clear that the Yeshiva’s policy is to apply the Psak of Reb Aron across the board. When this was conveyed to the Choshuve Rosh Yeshiva he said he didn’t recall that the Yeshiva went, although all the boys and the Rabbaim do remember. Obviously at his advanced age he is excused for not remembering, but it doesn’t chance the facts.
    2) Being that the Rosh Yeshiva didn’t clearly state that whoever goes will be expelled or otherwise punished, which is the usual wording used, the Bochurim interpreted it that he wanted to give over his position that holds the Bochurim should not go and the Yeshiva will not officially attend, but he cannot Assur any individual from attending. When this was explained to the Rosh Yeshiva, he said the parents should’ve called him to ask permission and he would’ve evaluated it on a case by case basis. Practically speaking that was not feasible. The Rosh Yeshiva to my knowledge doesn’t own a cell phone, nor does he even have a click on his home phone, so it would be impossible for 70 parents to get through between 10 pm and 12 pm. I would assume everyone agrees that it would be disrespectful to call a Rosh Yeshiva after 12.
    3) Most of the boys went with permission from their parents, many of which are serious Bnei Torah and Rabbonim. So obviously these adults made a judgment call in favor of attending. These parents “were/are” familiar with this particular Yeshiva and the Rosh Yeshiva and despite that they didn’t think they were doing something wrong. I respectfully cannot understand why you would think that so many parents Bnei Torah “got it wrong”. And even if you would say they despite the incredible odds of 70 to 1 they were still wrong, at least it shows that it wasn’t clear cut and there was room for error. What ever happened to being Dan L’Kaf Zechus ?
    4) After everything is said and done, what Chinuch lesson are the boys to learn from this for their life ? Apparently the Rosh Yeshiva holds that being under the spell of his authority under all circumstances even when its questionable is such an important lesson, even more important than showing humbleness and ability to compromise and forgive.
    5) Unfortunately this fiasco likely caused some of these boys, their parents and many others in the Yeshiva world to lose respect for a real Tzaddik and very Ehriche person, their esteemed Rosh Yeshiva Shlita.

    Hopefully there can be an exit strategy for the mess and the Rosh Yeshiva’s dignity can be restored. You appear to be a smart Rabbi and maybe you can come up with the solution. But in summary I believe the way out is not to pick sides, but rather to convey to the world that an unfortunate misunderstanding occurred [on both sides] and hopefully the Rosh Yeshiva can accept that as well and just move on after Pesach with an hischadshus. By him taking apart each boy and admitting first those who davened for the Rebbe and so forth, he is just keeping the issue alive way longer than it should. Hopefully he can show true Torah values to being able to forgive and move on and K’Vod Shomayim will be restored.

14. JS:

    Bochurim should not fast? Are you familiar with the Mishna פת במלח תאכל? We should not allow a bochur to fast by supplying him with his creature needs. He should be satisfied and dedicated to learn despite hunger.

    Rational:

    The Rosh Hayeshiva enacted rules. He may be the authority and have the power. No debate. But are these rules sensible? Are they created to help talmidim grow, or to give the yeshiva name for “hasmodoh”? Yes, he can do whatever he wants. But is that his responsibility? I suggest he should be a guide to their learning, not a drill sergeant.

    LY:

    Criticism was not called for? Maybe it was. Maybe these restrictions have no benefit to the growth of these bochurim in Avodas Hashem. Maybe going to the levaya of a tzaddik has an effect on the Yiras Shomayim of the bochurim.

    Torah613ami:

    “Every second the bochurim are out of yeshiva can decrease their ahavas hashem, ahavas torah and emunah.” And how precisely does that happen? If they cut seder to go to a ball game, I might disagree, but you would have a point. They went to the levaya of a Gadol Hador. Maybe you should review the meforshim on the gemora כל דהוה באשכבתיה דרבי מזומן לחיי העולם הבא. It is not a recreational outing.

    In addition, you may question the Rosh Yeshiva’s motives, but you can’t judge without knowing them for real. I remind you of the Mishna הוי דן את כל אדם לכף זכות.

    Yossie:

    There is a valid point that Kavod for Rabbonim has dipped to new lows. There is a counter point that is also with merit. Kavod should be earned. If a Rosh Yeshiva behaves like a despot, making gezairos and being overly controlling, he will lose the respect of his talmidim. That doesn’t make them right, but it doesn’t speak to his gadlus either.

15. Thanks for clarifying! Perhaps try and get both sides of the story before you print next time. Simple journalism.

16. Thank u so much YWN for the Clarification!
    I do think we have to Discuss What roshi yeshivas are doing because there is a lot of unfair and rishes going on in the Yeshiva world. In this case I don’t think it was anything major unfair, but it’s definitely debatable!

17. @torah613ami….regardless of what is right or wrong here. I have never heard of a more misguided post than the one you made…using torah to back your rant in which you decide how a rosh yeshiva should act??? What kind of chinuch have you gotten that anybody ever said your opinion matters enough to judge a rosh yeshiva…at least for the most part here anyone with criticisms stated them as opinions. right or wrong, they know them as opinions…your stating as fact, that is just disturbing……go back to basics.

18. Dear Rabbi Hoffman, no matter how much you try to defend this RY and melamed zechus on him and his decisions, the damage was done, and the true colors of the yeshiva and it’s leader was shown by the yeshiva itself to the public by publicly expelling 50 of it’s bochurim (so no lashon harah here, it’s something they publicly did, and in their eyes they were right). It’s nice to be melamed zechus, but personally I feel you missed the boat here, your points of clarifications about what the yeshiva is and how strict their rules are, who the RY is and who his rebbeim were and how close he was with the Skulner Rebbe and how many times he fasted, or whether it’s a matter of halacha if they should have went or not, within the city or not, all these thing are all irrelevant!! What’s clear is the yeshiva and the RY and his policies and rules show it’s all just about him and his rules and how to enforce them, it’s not about the bochurim and their needs and what’s important to them. I don’t care who he is or who his rabbies were, I don’t care how many hours he learns, it’s not just about learning 24/7/365, it’s about the right chinuch too, if he thinks it’s the right chinuch to play god all day and okay to toy with people’s children because of his extreme rules and punishments and can decide when to throw them out on the street because they didn’t listen to him then he is not a real true mechanech and should step down of his high horse. Once upon a time when the Jewish nation had it’s glory or Torah a true Rosh Yeshiva was considered second to Hashem, את ה’ אלקיך תירא לרבות תלמידי חכמים, a real rebbe was considered like an angel of Hashem אם דומה הרב למלאך ה’ צבאות יבקשו תורה מפיהו, חגיגה טו ע”ב. a true rebbe treated his students mamash like his own children, כל המלמד בן חבירו תורה כאילו ילדו. Is there any rebbi or rosh yeshiva today who can say that about themselves?? How you expect your students to treat you like god or like an angel or even like a father if you don’t act like one? If this RY’s own child didn’t obey his rules at home or did something he was told not to do, would he throw him out of his home on the street for good because he broke the rules at home? of course not. their own children they can’t control, but they have the right to decide when and how to control intimidate and punish other people’s children at free will no questions asked, because when it comes to other people’s children they become god over night and every thing they say is so called “daas torah”, god forbid do otherwise than they declare on you otherwise you will be treated like garbage thrown on the street. that’s exactly what happened here and it’s far far far away from the true derech hatorah how to teach and mechanech. Unfortunately schools and yeshivos today are not there for the kids and their true growth, they are there for nothing but themselves, their control, their kovod, their name and prestige and of course living off mosdos money where the big chunk of it goes to the ones on the top and their families. Every year new yeshivos and mesivtos open up by the dozen, every joe shmoe who learned in kollel for five years and decides to open a yeshiva can do it at free will, he turns from a pashut kollel guy to god overnight, set his own rules and do whatever he likes with other people’s kids. it’s a shame. if people had some common sense they would put an end to all this kovod grabbing and work on forming a parents body and a committee for every school and yeshiva to make final and important decisions, after all the students are our children, we pay tuition, it’s time for the parents to set the rules straight.

19. there is a basic question to ask here:

    What is the purpose of learning Torah? To be a talmid chachom or to do the mitzvos properly?

    If the purpose of learning Torah is to be a talmid chochom, then these boys do not belong at this yeshiva since what they were doing (in the eyes of the yeshiva} is bitul Torah.
    And if the purpose of learning Torah is to do the mitzvos, then these boys do not belong at this yeshiva either since it is obvious that they were doing the mitzvah of kavod ha mais who is a talmid chochom. This is not the goal of this yeshiva.
    They should go to a yeshiva that teaches them to be menches and do mitzvahs…..

20. I think the yeshiva should give all 50 bochurim a gift card to sprinkles and all will be well

21. Kudos to Rabbi Hoffman.

22. I guess tile will tell what the outcome of the LAKEWOOD 50 will be.

23. Thank you Rabbi Hoffman for this very clear article and thank you YWN for publishing it. I do not understand Bunny76, the first commentator here, for saying this should not have been published now. The Rosh Yeshiva was set up for criticism by both the publication of the first piece by YWN and then far more irresponsibly by publishing the letter from Rabbi Horowitz of Jerusalem, the Har Nof Bostoner.

    Chochom, why are you weighing in here going all over this over and over again? The analysis by Rabbi Hoffman is just that. He does not take sides nor is it his business or job to do so. He does not need to put any side at the end of his independent objective analysis. He does not say the Rosh Yeshiva was right, he simply tells us where he was coming from, in an articulate straightforward way.

    Anyone who was really interested in knowing the truth here could easily have found out all the information set out so clearly by Rabbi Hoffman. How many mesivtas with that number of bochurim are there in Lakewood? No one is obliged to agree with the Rosh Yeshiva either in hashkofa or halocha but giving him the common decency of hearing him out before roasting him in public would have been the right thing to do. Where are you now Bostoner Rebbe?

24. Re: Yerushalmi about being mevatel Torah for levaya only in town..

    Does anyone know how many yeshiva bocharim and Torah centers from out of town attended Rav Kotler’s levaya in the lower East side, and later in EY?

25. Rational: What you describe is called Midas HaDin, the world cannot stand on Midas Ha’Din; you can (and should) demand it from yourself but have understanding for others.

    Shlomo : An analysis of the “unknown” facts, opens the reader up to the understanding from where people come, and that there was no questionable intent.

    Chochom: you are on the button, but should not have questioned the writer’s intent on informing the reader. He did us a service not a disservice.

    Pilpel harif: You make an excellent point on how a Rosh Yeshiva can kill a Bocher with the best of intentions. I too (a Chasidisher) learned in Litvisha Yeshivois and a Rosh Yeshiva almost killed me (for “his” personal reasons). Of course I did not attend his Leveiye, but was Moichel him. Being a Chasidisher did play bad in my case, as he had double reason to want to get rid of me. B”H he did not succeed. Rosh Yeshiva’s are not G-d, and even if they might be correct, their reaction might not be. We need to have an open mind.

26. The Yeshiva is unique-
    sure is.

    The Yeshiva is very “old school”-
    please show me a documented example of mass dismissal in the past 100 years, however justified.

    The Yeshiva is very open about its policies-
    yes, they are. but almost all the boys that learn there do so by default, given the lack of high-level chasidish Yeshivos in Lakewood.

    The Rosh Yeshiva is not by any means anti-chasidish-
    thanks for removing the one rational we were able to give.

    The Rosh Yeshiva was very close with the Skulener Rebbe-
    how do you know?

    The Rosh Yeshiva fasted taanesim for the Skulener Rebbe-
    so??

    The Rosh Yeshiva spoke on Tues. night-
    were the chucked boys also there when he spoke or just the ones that didn’t go to the levaya?

    The Rosh Yeshiva forbade the boys to go to Rav Elya Svei’s levaya-
    for shame!

    Lets stop rationalizing! if the world doesn’t do it, there’s a reason.

27. You better ALL of klal yisroel make sure there will be not ONE boy left behind without a yeshiva and a yeshiva that he will be comfortable with. And quick!

28. i know the yeshiva and the rosh yshiva is a great talmid chacham and has a clear vision in yidishkeit

29. shvuntz:

    A great talmid chochom is not guaranteed to be a good mechanech. He might be an ideal go-to person for advice on a great many issues. But that does not mean that he is good at chinuch or the one to ask shailos about it. His shiur might be fantastic and praiseworthy. But the parallel of a doctor’s bedside manner might not be his great maaloh.

30. Even if the boys would have missed time from learning to attend a football match, even then, it is at best questionable if they should even be suspended let alone for expelled, but how much more so, for attending a funeral or dare I say a medical appointment. Then next time it maybe funeral of a grandparent, or G-d Forbid a young parent of 1 of these kids R’L, and the other kids will feel morally obligated to patronize this young orphan. Then what?

31. Can’t everyone let this go already? Let the boys get back to their lives and all of you, as well! I’m sure some accommodations will be arranged for all these boys to get back into learning (although it’s basically bain hazmanim already in most yeshivos). Those boys who are real masmidim will be leaning wherever they are. The rest will somehow manage. Stop worrying this issue like a dog with a bone!

32. Thank you Rabbi Hoffman. Thank you. Didnt read these next batch of comments as we all know the severity of loshon hora. But rabbi u said it so perfectly. Even being a baalas teshuva its clear as day that its within the rosh’s parameters to make these decisions.
    And genius. If the Ben torah students couldn’t nullify their deepest desire to go to the levaya to the rules of their rosh yeshiva, how deep was their desire to daven for the Rebbe whem he was sick. When will we all realise the beauty of yiddishkeit that we are all different and that’s ok and stop wasting time judging

33. You all need to remember, although you may disagree with the rules or the yeshiva.
    All the boys in this story were expelled, meaning they went there; I’m assuming the majority of them had free will and were aware of the rules, the strictness, and hashkofah. It doesn’t sound like it’s a secret.

    If so, then why are you complaining?
    Don’t like it? Don’t go.
    But don’t stick up for people who set themselves up.

34. Rosh Yeshiva? No one has a right to belittle choshive roshei yeshiva. However, just when did this menahel ever give a high level beis medrash or mesivta Shiur? I am not here trying to be mevatel anyone. The fact is he does give a nice Shiur in Chumash, almost on a Beis Yakov high school level. Anyway, Just because someone learned in BMG when Reb Aaron ZT”L was alive doesn’t mean he understood Reb Aaron’s shiurim. Has anyone ever heard him repeat over a shiur that he heard from Reb Aaron? One does not become a talmid of Reb Aaron zt”l by osmosis,breathing the air in a yeshiva, or by hanging a picture of Reb Aaron in your mesivta. (Reb Elya Svei ZT”L as an example, was a talmid of Reb Aaron. He knew Reb Aaron’s shiurim. He didn’t have to hitchhike a ride all his life on Reb Aaron’s name.) You also don’t obtain Daas Torah because you wear a black hat and run a mesivta like a boot camp in the US Army. The menahel says he learned by Reb Berel or does he mean that he learned in Reb Berel’s yeshiva? How many other yeshivas did he learn in? BTW, I’m glad to see he has a clean bill of health and his cardiologist permitted him to fast for the Skulener Rebbe. I hope it was a full day fast and not just a two hour taanis shaos till breakfast. But just, why would anyone who indeed does fast would afterward feel it correct and important to publicize his “gadlus and tzidkus” by telling people that he fasts; and also reveal who he is fasting for? Since we know already from the posts above that he is a “gadol”, I am wondering how often he fasted ……. like did he fast once a month on Rosh Chodesh, or only on Shabbos? Also wondering for what other choilem he is yoishev b’taanis?

    Surely there are many here wondering, if there are members of the hanhala writing messages here that their menahal didn’t do anything wrong; Lhepach, they insist he was correct to throw out 50 bachurim (70 is probably more accurate) for attending a levaya in Boro Park of the Skulene Rebbe Zt”l, then why are they not openly stating the name of the Mesivta that is in Lakewood and the name of its “daas Torah” that controls everyone there -including them. After all, maybe there are more good things the Olam HaTorah can learn from such a great gadol besides gadol avonoi mnsoi.

35. 2 points I have not seen mentioned.
    Why did the yeshiva take in so many chasidishe bochurim in the first place? He should have realized they have different hashkofos than litvishe bochurim and would have to make different rules to accommodate these needs. The Mir also has a large number of chasidishe bochurim and accommodate them.
    Second what yeshiva can afford to throw out fifty bochurim without taking a huge financial hit. Will we be bombarded with Robo calls and emails to help bail out the yeshiva?

36. Heckter Chalavim: Fech!

    Such comments makes me run away from blogging. Can’t you make your points without belittling? Where did YOU learn such Middois? Are you willing to tell us all your short comings, all your Aveiress, and everything bad about you?

    profp: It was said (and probably still true today) that the best makeup of a Yeshiva is for
    the Rosh Yeshiva be a Livisha,
    the cook a Hungarian
    and the Bocherim CHASIDISHA!

    The best of ALL worlds!

37. Ben Melech: I didn’t belittle. There’s no reason to belittle here. I stand fully behind the post I placed previously above. The undisclosed menahal that wears a scarf mask over his face like the cowboy outlaw Jesse James did when making a withdrawal at a bank, and thinks he can conceal his identity after expelling about 70 bnei Torah to fuel his own ego, has done a wonderful job on his own of belittling himself. Sadly, for you Mr. ben melech such ignorance and gaiva is worthy of praise. For you he’s chashuv; he’s a rosh yeshiva. But to bnei Torah and everyone else he’s an am haaretz that dreams of geese. (Hamavin yavin)

38. Burn the fat:

    The comments on this site are a forum to discuss opinions and issues. You are entitled to disagree with this R”Y, and I do so strongly. But you spend your comments here engaging in personal attack. You do not need to like the guy, nor do you need to feel chashivus for him. But stick to the issues. Your comment would be most displeasing to the Chofetz Chaim and anyone that learns his seforim. That is not the intent of the comment sections here. I stated that I take issue with him, and feel he made a bad decision. But I will not stoop low to disrespect him personally.

39. Who says the Rosh Yeshivah is a posek. It’s about time we all realize that Roshei Yeshivos are not poskim, and have no right to be involved in matters of halachah.

40. Thank you Rabbi Hoffman. Thank you for defending kavod hatorah. This particular Rosh Yeshiva is a tremendous Ohaiv Yisroel and will go out of his way to help a fellow Yid, even someone he doesn’t know. I know this first hand, as he helped a sibling of mine in an extraordinary and sensitive way.

41. To the people posting comments like “they knew the rules and they got what they deserved”… CH”VS if Hashem gives any of us what we deserve…. BH for Yom Kippur.

42. After all is said and done:

    The very method of ‘showing the door’ for every rule broken is simply an indicator of a real ineffective Chinuch.

    Is there no other way how to have an effective השפעה to maintain discipline on your Talmidim?

    אלא מאי ?

    Your very methods in chinuch and effectiveness comes down, to only resort to threatening to ruin talmidims growth in torah.

    And for what?!

    Had you been a true effective מחנך you would have no need to come to this uncalled situation.

    Speaking about Old School chinuch, no Yeshiva ever dismissed for such nonsense. i never heard any Volozhin, Radin, Mir, Slobodke, Kletzk, etc talmidim being dismissed and especially for acts that were done in good intentions.

    Moreover, i don’t know of ANY Yeshiva in Israel that would NOT have allowed the Talmidim to attend. Let alone expel..

    Is this yeshiva better than the finest in Israel?

43. Special Thanks To YWN, for the great job, as explained below.
    The article above reads: “He was also a Talmid of Rav Paller, Rav Beryl Soloveitchik, and Rav Aharon Kotler.” Seems the author forgot to mention that he is also a talmid of the late Grand Rabbi Shlomo Helbrans of Lev Tahor. Or was it that Rabbi Helbrans was a talmid of him? (Well, should it really matter who taught who how to be a control freak? ) Anyway, the bachurim of the Lakewood Community need to thank YWN for this wonderful publicity, because after this great expulsion the secret menahal with the mask to protect his identity will certainly think at least once before he again does a foolish move against anyone. Also, all bachurim in that Mesivta who have not yet been expelled should carry the phone number of YWN with them at all times. Or at the very minimum, have a contact number to someone that can email YWN on the spot of anything dumb that is repeated by that wonderful and caring menahel.
    Thank you again YWN for .

44. The little..

    I am not so sure what הקטר said involves LH.
    Just because one says a certain RY is not Gadol HaDor does not mean he belittled one. He did not say he’s an Am Haaretz or is a nobody etc. All he pointed out is he’s is not as great as YOU think he is..

45. Gaon:

    “to fuel his own ego”

    “But to bnei Torah and everyone else he’s an am haaretz that dreams of geese.”

    Sorry, but that’s what Heckter wrote. I oppose what this R”Y did, and I feel he is wrong. But I protest the degradation in the above quotes above. That’s LH according any standards. But let’s hypothesize that these lines don’t qualify as LH. The focus should not be on the personalities, but on the principles. We can discuss issues, not get into the personal assassinations.